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Spatula City posted:Agreed, stereotyping people is bad, and using statistical models to prove something about a group is a slippery slope to awful things. It's definitely understandable why many non-white people have tried to shut white people out of discussions, though. Clear over-correction for the long history of not being allowed a voice. It doesn't make it right or justified. Substantive response for non-Amergin poster follows: The entire point I was getting at is that the common lived experiences of white dudes growing up make them more inclined to dominate discussion spaces in general. Noting this is just to encourage self-awareness on one's part of this ingrained tendency and to arrest it, or to respond constructively when it is pointed out to them. e: NaanViolence posted:Thank you. This is exactly why BLM was wrong to protest at rallies for Sanders. Nah. Not even getting into what exactly it means for BLM to be "wrong" for protesting Sanders, their act of protest has caused the Sanders campaign--which was disturbingly tone-deaf on racial issues early--to begin to tailor his message towards minority groups. It's pretty absurd to malign BLM for such an action considering the overwhelming importance of minority groups towards the democratic party's presidential strategy. Not to claim that BLM was the sole, or even the pivotal factor that caused this change in Sander's campaign (that probably more had to do with overwhelming losses in states with a higher proportion of minority populations). Also BLM held Clinton's feet to the fire on similar matters (that whole Superpredator thing). A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 04:45
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SquadronROE posted:So what happened to Jade Helm, and why aren't people pushing it in the Governor of Texas' face? I was wondering this the other day but it seems to have just evaporated.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:11
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SquadronROE posted:So what happened to Jade Helm, and why aren't people pushing it in the Governor of Texas' face? The greatest trick The Obama ever pulled was slightly editing the Jade Helm protocol into every bathroom bill enacted in the country. The more that pass, the more total Jade Helm's victory shall be.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:20
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metalloid posted:Speaking of BLM, I was looking for a local group to go work for, but I live in a rural area and couldn't find anything. Is it just my poor internet skills? I mean, rural people get shot in infuriatingly senseless ways too, right? Usually they shoot themselves.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:32
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Hodgepodge posted:Tengames got the troll derail moving, and lots of people joined in. But you were conversing before that point. I just had a disagreement with something specific Tiny Brontosaurus said, and it seemed to make a derail while i was gone. I think what i wanted to say got already said though by other people. GreyjoyBastard posted:I've actually contributed to the protocols in a tiny way, at least by way of DeRay McKesson (who is an awesome dude). Thanks, didn't actually know that protest groups had people specifically to handle this thing.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:38
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computer parts posted:Usually they shoot themselves. Not always. Sometimes the rural rancher gets shot by the police.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:46
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Hodgepodge posted:#goonpostsmatter No posts matter. Nothing matters.
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Apr 26, 2016 06:13
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DemeaninDemon posted:Not always. Sometimes the rural rancher gets shot by the police. That was actually my uncle's neighbor and he got really pissed off at the local cops.
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Apr 26, 2016 06:54
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I like it when minorities call out white liberals because instead of shutting up for a sec for a little self-reflection, the white liberals (of any gender) go from zero to insanely butthurt so fast your head spins.
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Apr 26, 2016 07:20
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computer parts posted:That was actually my uncle's neighbor and he got really pissed off at the local cops. Wait we talking about the same thing? Cause small world indeed if so. I want the drat report to be public.
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Apr 26, 2016 07:28
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Everytime TB post, i get annoyed. So i click on their rap sheet and i feel better knowing that they will be banned again soon. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 26, 2016 11:25
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As Hillary has pointed out, you can't change individual hearts through legislation - so what can the federal government do? I think to create a more objective, even, and immediate form of justice we should move toward federal policing and Judge Dredd. The police are already exercising on the spot lethal force with no plans to stop - why not create an institutional mindset of being on the record at all times?
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Apr 26, 2016 12:30
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McDowell posted:As Hillary has pointed out, you can't change individual hearts through legislation - so what can the federal government do? I think to create a more objective, even, and immediate form of justice we should move toward federal policing and Judge Dredd. The police are already exercising on the spot lethal force with no plans to stop - why not create an institutional mindset of being on the record at all times? As Hillary herself said, "Maybe I've just lived a little too long, but I have no illusions about how hard this will be. You are not going to wave a magic wand."
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Apr 26, 2016 13:05
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A big flaming stink posted:Substantive response for non-Amergin poster follows: Th Clinton campaign started to address black issues more aggressively about the same time. So basically if they attacked Clinton instead it would have netted the same policy results without the damage done to Sanders.
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Apr 26, 2016 13:20
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NaanViolence posted:Thank you. This is exactly why BLM was wrong to protest at rallies for Sanders. Well maybe if the Sanders people had made it public that he marched with MLK and that Hillary is a Goldwater Republican, BLM would have known better.
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Apr 26, 2016 13:34
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gohmak posted:Th Clinton campaign started to address black issues more aggressively about the same time. So basically if they attacked Clinton instead it would have netted the same policy results without the damage done to Sanders. They tried to go after Clinton but it's a lot harder to get in the face of someone with lifetime secret service protection. Not that they didn't try, they went after all the democratic nominees.
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Apr 26, 2016 13:54
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Stultus Maximus posted:Well maybe if the Sanders people had made it public that he marched with MLK and that Hillary is a Goldwater Republican, BLM would have known better. "Following the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., Rodham organized a two-day student strike and worked with Wellesley's black students to recruit more black students and faculty." Sounds like Clinton actually did something about it, instead of being another white dude wandering around at a protest.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:08
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A big flaming stink posted:The entire point I was getting at is that the common lived experiences of white dudes growing up make them more inclined to dominate discussion spaces in general. Noting this is just to encourage self-awareness on one's part of this ingrained tendency and to arrest it, or to respond constructively when it is pointed out to them. This is absolutely true, in something like an actual meeting or group that involves creation of policy. But this is a subforum for debate and discussion on a comedy site. We're all equals here. So when someone declares themselves the high poobah of what is allowed to be criticized, or hell even discussed, some people are going to call bullshit. And secondly, nobody is going to respond constructively to personal attacks and accusations. Third, the discussion at hand wasn't even Race. It was Protest. Regardless of the protests being a serious matter of racial justice, what I and others were criticizing was protest tactics. Understandably, others don't agree and some even had great arguments against what I had said. That's great, and the point of this here Debate and Discussion forum. But then we have declarations of "You're not allowed to speak on X, as white," with the implication that you're being racist (or "Horrible" if you prefer to dogwhistle) if you do so in any way that isn't total agreement. That's poop.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:16
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Sir Tonk posted:"Following the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., Rodham organized a two-day student strike and worked with Wellesley's black students to recruit more black students and faculty." That's pretty awesome to hear that Clinton did this, but please keep in mind that "wandering around at a protest" for civil rights in the 60's was a fast way to get beaten half to death by cops or white supremecists.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:18
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Sir Tonk posted:http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cleveland-police-union-tamir-rice-settlement why don't the police do that, since that's you know, part of their job
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Apr 26, 2016 14:19
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Sir Tonk posted:http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cleveland-police-union-tamir-rice-settlement
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Apr 26, 2016 14:25
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gohmak posted:Th Clinton campaign started to address black issues more aggressively about the same time. So basically if they attacked Clinton instead it would have netted the same policy results without the damage done to Sanders. Clinton is a bit more immune because of her strong outreach to the black community.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:27
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Sir Tonk posted:"Following the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., Rodham organized a two-day student strike and worked with Wellesley's black students to recruit more black students and faculty." I was making a joke.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:34
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Sir Tonk posted:http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cleveland-police-union-tamir-rice-settlement  Jesus Christ. gently caress this rear end in a top hat so hard. My dad was talking a bit about police brutality and how it's 'overblown' that african americans are met with disproportionate force--but he couldn't fathom why white, armed mass shooters are taken alive almost every single time.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:35
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Kilroy posted:I'm the lump of congealed fat working its way into his coronary artery.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:37
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Zeroisanumber posted:Clinton is a bit more immune because of her strong outreach to the black community. Slow down there, I thought the Clintons destroyed the black community in the 90's and then went on Arsenio to gloat about it.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:37
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I know we've already had an argument about police unions and why they are necessary or not but this kind of racist victim blaming poo poo they constantly do that is wildly out of the realm of protecting their members is one of the reasons why people that hate them do.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:39
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Radish posted:I know we've already had an argument about police unions and why they are necessary or not but this kind of racist victim blaming poo poo they constantly do that is wildly out of the realm of protecting their members is one of the reasons why people that hate them do. What legal recourse do we have? I mean I suppose we could vote more carefully in our local elections for Sheriff, but aside from that?
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Apr 26, 2016 14:44
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Talmonis posted:That's pretty awesome to hear that Clinton did this, but please keep in mind that "wandering around at a protest" for civil rights in the 60's was a fast way to get beaten half to death by cops or white supremecists. Organizing a protest in the 60s was a fast way to get yourself shot. But, as for the prospect of "changing hearts" versus changing policy, the CRM is a really good example of that. Racists didn't stop being racists when the '64 CRA got signed, they just started being held legally accountable for when they discriminated against minorities. Over time people stopped believing bigotry was worth the hassle, their children grew up with black and latino friends at school, and people changed to some degree. One of the main roles of government, ideally, is to shield the powerless from the powerful. You won't make every racist cop stop being a racist cop, but you can push policies that hold individual cops, department leadership, and local officials accountable for racist behavior exhibited by their cops. Appoint DOJ leadership who will act against LE orgs harboring racists and place responsive federal officials in those areas to encourage victims to come forward and lodge formal complaints. There's no way to take the bigotry out of the bigot, but you can definitely put the bigot in a box so their harm is minimized, and that's something you can do on a much shorter timeline than getting everyone to respect each other through their own volition. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 14:44
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i don't want to start a massive row, but does anyone have literature on why nader is blameless in gore losing florida? i think it was because exit polls for nader voters actually showed they would have gone bush, and gore lieberman mostly just ran an unenergizing campaign, among various other things, but would like something more detailed
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Apr 26, 2016 14:45
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Sir Tonk posted:http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cleveland-police-union-tamir-rice-settlement Um, sir, isn't it the police who need training on mishandling firearms?
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Apr 26, 2016 14:47
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The Rice family really should put out a statement that just says ,"Suck my dick." What an rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:48
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Abel Wingnut posted:i don't want to start a massive row, but does anyone have literature on why nader is blameless in gore losing florida? Because Nader didn't appoint any justices to the SCOTUS. Edit: ^^^ thanks for making it look like I didn't doublepost like a greenhorn.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:49
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FAUXTON posted:Organizing a protest in the 60s was a fast way to get yourself shot. Absolutely. I'm just pointing out that they both stuck their necks out in a time when it wasn't safe to do so.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:50
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Talmonis posted:Absolutely. I'm just pointing out that they both stuck their necks out in a time when it wasn't safe to do so. And it shouldn't even be necessary because the post you were quoting was already heaping praise on Clinton and trying to dismiss Bernie. It is really unnecessary to keep talking about how great Clinton just because someone called out a lie about Bernie Sanders. Sorry this thread isn't all about your favorite candidate all the time Fauxton.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:55
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Nevvy Z posted:And it shouldn't even be necessary because the post you were quoting was already heaping praise on Clinton and trying to dismiss Bernie. It is really unnecessary to keep talking about how great Clinton just because someone called out a lie about Bernie Sanders. Pointing out that the organizers were in danger too is heaping praise/being dismissive? Help me here, elaborate on that.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:59
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Abel Wingnut posted:i don't want to start a massive row, but does anyone have literature on why nader is blameless in gore losing florida? i think it was because exit polls for nader voters actually showed they would have gone bush, and gore lieberman mostly just ran an unenergizing campaign, among various other things, but would like something more detailed It's accurate, I think, to say that Nader lost Florida for Gore, but only in the sense that the election was so close that basically everything lost Florida for Gore. Gore stuttering during a debate performance or W going into a diner once was probably enough to swing 500 votes one way or the other.
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Apr 26, 2016 15:01
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Abel Wingnut posted:i don't want to start a massive row, but does anyone have literature on why nader is blameless in gore losing florida? i think it was because exit polls for nader voters actually showed they would have gone bush, and gore lieberman mostly just ran an unenergizing campaign, among various other things, but would like something more detailed
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Apr 26, 2016 15:04
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The argument that Nader didn't cost him the election is that according to the polling done on Nader voters they largely split evenly among Republicans and Democrats. So in order for Nader to have cost Gore the election both 55% of them would have to vote for Gore as their second choice AND actually vote instead of staying home. Additionally way more registered Democrats crossed the aisle and voted Bush in that state than the 500 votes he needed. Regardless of if Nader voters were definitely going to go Gore which may be true, it's much more on Gore for his mistake regarding the recounts which allowed the Supreme Court to give it to Bush. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/13/us/contesting-vote-strategy-gore-s-failure-ask-for-manual-statewide-recount-may.html?pagewanted=all
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Apr 26, 2016 15:08
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To put it another way, if every Senator voted on some bill you don't like, and the result was 51-49, you could pick out any one single Senator of the 51, and say that the vote passing was all his fault. In a certain sense it is true. But, it is much more reasonable to assign blame to all 51 collectively, or to also make it clear that each of the other 50 that voted for it are also each 100% responsible.
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Apr 26, 2016 15:12
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