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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"If you'd like to see what Fantastic Four are up to, press 'pause' now, and turn to page 84." This sounds like an interesting narrative experiment. quote:muliti-dimensional Ironically, at c 4d spacetime compresses into a single dimension 
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May 6, 2016 23:20
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Hat Thoughts posted:What about the Directors Cut commentary...with Kevin Smith 👿 Did his Flash episode air already? TMNT2 posters.    
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May 7, 2016 00:21
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The MSJ posted:Did his Flash episode air already? Next week.
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May 7, 2016 00:35
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Gyges posted:Imagine every Batman and Spider-Man movie giving a short text crawl about dead guardians and how that drives the character. Then never having to see Martha, Thomas, or Ben die ever again. A long time ago, in an alleyway far, far away...
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May 7, 2016 19:44
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For all the comparisons to BvS that Civil War is sure to invite, I think one of the areas CW shines is (ending spoilers) subverting the overdone generic Superhero trope of having the punchmans set aside their differences to go fight the bad guy in the end. Also it succeeded in having a conflict that made sense without requiring 2/3rds of the primary cast to be literally mentally ill.
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May 7, 2016 22:43
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:For all the comparisons to BvS that Civil War is sure to invite, I think one of the areas CW shines is (ending spoilers) subverting the overdone generic Superhero trope of having the punchmans set aside their differences to go fight the bad guy in the end. No, just Stark.
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May 7, 2016 22:47
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Burkion posted:No, just Stark. Stark has been literally mentally ill for the last 3 movies he's starred in. Marvel is promoting violence against people with mental disabilities and facial hair.
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May 7, 2016 22:58
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Burkion posted:No, just Stark. Stark was understandably guilt-ridden over Ultron, but had rational reasons for signing the accords, going after Cap, and trying to kill Bucky.
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May 7, 2016 22:59
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Stark was understandably guilt-ridden over Ultron, but had rational reasons for signing the accords, going after Cap, and trying to kill Bucky. He had zero rational reasons to attack Bucky. None. Unhappy with Bucky, sure, want to throw Bucky in a mental hosptial, sure. Try and kill Bucky for something he had no control over? No, sorry. Try and do that AFTER YOU KNOW he had no control over it and that you are being taunted into doing that exact thing by the guy responsible for all of this who admitted he was? That's like Batman decides to kill Superman after Lex Luthor reveals that he is behind the bombing, is behind the attack in Africa, and that he's currently black mailing Superman into trying to fight him AND that he has Doomsday on the way. It's ridiculous and way, way stupider than the 'heroes team up against common foe' cliche.
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May 7, 2016 23:17
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Yeah, an emotionally distraught person who just witnessed one of the most horrifying things imaginable while finding out one of their closest friends knew and lied about it... why isn't this person thinking rationally?
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May 7, 2016 23:24
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It was a bad thing. In a moment of weakness a guy who had lost almost all the people in his life nearly became a supervillain. That's the POINT. It was an evil act, but not an unsympathetic one.
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May 7, 2016 23:28
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Codependent Poster posted:Yeah, an emotionally distraught person who just witnessed one of the most horrifying things imaginable while finding out one of their closest friends knew and lied about it... why isn't this person thinking rationally? Yeah, this. Tony's life is pretty obviously already falling apart at this point. I didn't find it at all unbelievable that finding out his parents were brutally murdered, watching his parents get brutally murdered, might just send him off the deep end, to the point that he just wanted to end the closest thing to someone responsible he could get his hands on. No, he's absolutely not being beep boop rational, he's being really, painfully human.
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May 7, 2016 23:29
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Burkion posted:He had zero rational reasons to attack Bucky. None. Unhappy with Bucky, sure, want to throw Bucky in a mental hosptial, sure. Try and kill Bucky for something he had no control over? No, sorry. Try and do that AFTER YOU KNOW he had no control over it and that you are being taunted into doing that exact thing by the guy responsible for all of this who admitted he was? That's like Batman decides to kill Superman after Lex Luthor reveals that he is behind the bombing, is behind the attack in Africa, and that he's currently black mailing Superman into trying to fight him AND that he has Doomsday on the way. It's ridiculous and way, way stupider than the 'heroes team up against common foe' cliche. He's enraged at finding out he's standing next to the dude who murdered his parents, while watching a snuff film of said dude bashing his father's face in followed by strangling his Mom to death with his bare hands. Perhaps "rational" wasn't the best choice of words for that particular example, but it was an understandable reaction for a human to have even if they're not a brok-brain retard like Batman and Lex.
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May 7, 2016 23:29
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Dude, I don't like BvS anymore than you do but can we stop the r-word in reference to it? On the aspect of Tony's self destructive tendencies, I wouldn't call them the results of mental illness. He became self destructive long before developing anxiety and traumatic stress symptoms after the first Avengers. What he's experiencing now isn't HELPING but this is a factor of his behavior first seen in Iron Man 2. You can make a case for borderline personality disorder on Tony's part too. He's also shown on screen to be unregulated and potentially unmedicated, which is a fat lot more than Beavis gave us for Lex.
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May 7, 2016 23:35
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Codependent Poster posted:Yeah, an emotionally distraught person who just witnessed one of the most horrifying things imaginable while finding out one of their closest friends knew and lied about it... why isn't this person thinking rationally? The CG racoon already explained that no-one cares about your dead family.
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May 7, 2016 23:47
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Tony had watched video of his mother getting killed, found out the guy who killed her was standing next to him, and then that the other guy standing next to him, one of his best friends, had not only known about it and not told him, but spent the last few weeks protecting the murderer. If he had shrugged it off with a 'well, I guess he didn't know what he was doing, we're cool' it would have been one of the most ridiculous occurrences in the entire MCU. And that's including the talking loving tree. Tony losing his mind and immediately trying to murder Bucky was not rational or logical, but I completely bought that it was how an actual flawed human being would react in that situation
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May 7, 2016 23:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The CG racoon already explained that no-one cares about your dead family. That statement reflects precisely zero on the perspectives of Drax, Tony Stark or absolutely anyone else in the universe who isn't Rocket Raccoon.
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May 7, 2016 23:50
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Tony's response was completely human, which I think was a major plot point in the film, which is to say that it reinforces the fact that even though the Avengers are these super-heroes who come in and save the day, at their core they're all still susceptible to the same human flaws of the average person. IMO, that's where Civil War succeeded where BvS didn't; the film humanized the heroes.
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May 7, 2016 23:55
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Phylodox posted:Yeah, this. Tony's life is pretty obviously already falling apart at this point. I didn't find it at all unbelievable that finding out his parents were brutally murdered, watching his parents get brutally murdered, might just send him off the deep end, to the point that he just wanted to end the closest thing to someone responsible he could get his hands on. No, he's absolutely not being beep boop rational, he's being really, painfully human. That made sense, but a guy who was good enough friends with Banner to have him play therapist listening to Thunderbolt Ross? The entire set up required Tony to either be an idiot who trusted Ross, or an idiot who didn't have the foresight to clue in the rest of the team that he was just playing along in order to get a better deal. He purposefully went out of his way to do poo poo that would clearly antagonize Captain Do The Right Thing.
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May 7, 2016 23:57
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TFRazorsaw posted:Dude, I don't like BvS anymore than you do but can we stop the r-word in reference to it? That's fair. I'll try to be more mindful of that.
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May 8, 2016 00:01
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The thing here is people are mixing up "rational" and "relatable."Scyantific posted:Tony's response was completely human, which I think was a major plot point in the film, which is to say that it reinforces the fact that even though the Avengers are these super-heroes who come in and save the day, at their core they're all still susceptible to the same human flaws of the average person. Sort of. The core conflict in BvS is that the world is coming to grips with a genuinely selfless hero, while the conflict in Civil War is that the heroes still aren't very heroic. Mostly Tony, but through him, the film doesn't let Cap get past the part where he also wants to protect his loved ones. In the comics, there's an ironic thing were the most heroic character is Spider Man, who gives up his identity for Tony but has real doubts about how he's acting. None of the characters in the movie are really ready to deal with the responsibility that comes with power, which makes it a shame that Spidey had to be reintroduced and couldn't play his role from the comics. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 00:13 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 00:04
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Scyantific posted:Tony's response was completely human, which I think was a major plot point in the film, which is to say that it reinforces the fact that even though the Avengers are these super-heroes who come in and save the day, at their core they're all still susceptible to the same human flaws of the average person. You understand that your uplifting story of the human spirit is a billionaire's attempted murder of an innocent dude. Anakin: I killed them. I killed them all. They're dead, every single one of them. And not just the men, but the women and the children, too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I HATE THEM! Padme: To be angry is to be human. The result of 'humanizing' your heroes this way is that they are not heroes anymore, if they ever were.
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May 8, 2016 00:09
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You understand that your uplifting story of the human spirit is a billionaire's attempted murder of an innocent dude. He's saying that it makes sense that an otherwise rational person would react the way Tony did, not that the reaction was good or moral.
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May 8, 2016 00:11
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Well you see, in tactical realism land where people act rationally to optimize for the universal utility function ...
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May 8, 2016 00:12
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:He's saying that it makes sense that an otherwise rational person would react the way Tony did, not that the reaction was good or moral. Also, Tony's been coming apart at the seams for the last three or four movies now and no one seems to give a poo poo in-setting except Rhodes. There are a few different scenes in Civil War where Tony is visibly on the verge of breaking down sobbing because without fail whenever Tony tries to fix things, people get hurt and often die. And when he doesn't try to fix things, people show up demanding that he try.
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May 8, 2016 00:21
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Saying that Tony acted irrationally is pretty much the same thing as saying he's mentally ill. Iron Man in Civil War is like Batman in BvS. One thing I found funny is that Batman stops trying to kill Superman upon hearing "Martha" in BvS, but in Civil War 11 people died because Captain America became distracted upon hearing Crossbones mentioning Bucky. Also Marvel have been reading this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtaReY6WCVQ
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May 8, 2016 00:31
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:He's saying that it makes sense that an otherwise rational person would react the way Tony did, not that the reaction was good or moral. 'Good, rational, and moral' versus 'immoral, irrational, and bad' seems to be exactly the false dichotomy that the film is sort-of and tentatively counteracting. The concept of "super-heroes who come in and save the day, [but] at their core they're all still susceptible to the same human flaws of the average person" is an attempt to reinscribe the concept of 'super-heroism' back into the domain of the all-too-human. Stark of course doesn't just suddenly snap; the tape reveals that he was all along seeking to avenge his parents. It's actually the height of cynicism to say that all the 'justice' stuff is bunk, and the characters' are ultimately just petty stuff. That marks the difference between a 'superhero' and an rear end in a top hat with a magic gun. The raccoon is right.
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May 8, 2016 00:32
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Scyantific posted:Tony's response was completely human, which I think was a major plot point in the film, which is to say that it reinforces the fact that even though the Avengers are these super-heroes who come in and save the day, at their core they're all still susceptible to the same human flaws of the average person. How did BvS not humanize the heroes? You have Batman driven almost mad by being at ground zero of Super-9/11 and as a result going bonkers and you have a Superman that's painfully aware of how any action he takes has massive consequences and tries hard to deal with that. But that scene in CW was drat brutal though. Mind control or no, seeing something like that would gently caress you up, and after that I was rooting for Stank. Just curious, when did Cap find out about what Bucky did?
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May 8, 2016 00:34
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McCloud posted:How did BvS not humanize the heroes? You have Batman driven almost mad by being at ground zero of Super-9/11 and as a result going bonkers and you have a Superman that's painfully aware of how any action he takes has massive consequences and tries hard to deal with that. In Winter Soldier Zola tells Cap that Stark and his wife were killed by Hydra. He never says it was Bucky, but Steve was pretty sure because the lines to read between were highlighted. Black Widow also knew.
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May 8, 2016 00:42
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Also it succeeded in having a conflict that made sense without requiring 2/3rds of the primary cast to be literally mentally ill. This is something I disagree with entirely. BvS required 2 people distrustful of each other to be given reason to fight. CW required like a dozen people, more than half of whom are good friends, to not text each other vital information like "hey Bucky was mind controlled don't kill us lol"
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May 8, 2016 00:54
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The MSJ posted:Saying that Tony acted irrationally is pretty much the same thing as saying he's mentally ill. Iron Man in Civil War is like Batman in BvS. One thing I found funny is that Batman stops trying to kill Superman upon hearing "Martha" in BvS, but in Civil War 11 people died because Captain America became distracted upon hearing Crossbones mentioning Bucky. No it's not. Batman literally becomes a mass-murderer and has been maiming and torturing people for years due to Space Jesus 9/11 PTSD. His mental illness is central to his conflict with Superman. The entire narrative is built around his and Lex's derangement. Tony lashes out in anger in the heat of the moment against the man who killed his parents. And that's at the very end of the film. He has an understandable (though not laudable) response. That's not nearly the same thing as saying he's just mentally ill. Guy A. Person posted:This is something I disagree with entirely. BvS required 2 people distrustful of each other to be given reason to fight. CW required like a dozen people, more than half of whom are good friends, to not text each other vital information like "hey Bucky was mind controlled don't kill us lol" They absolutely do communicate with each other. They just don't trust each other, again for understandable reasons. Mazzagatti2Hotty fucked around with this message at 01:00 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 00:56
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Batman literally becomes a mass-murderer and has been maiming and torturing people for years due to Space Jesus 9/11 PTSD.
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May 8, 2016 01:14
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McCloud posted:How did BvS not humanize the heroes? You have Batman driven almost mad by being at ground zero of Super-9/11 and as a result going bonkers Not to mention the specific part of that where he snapped was when he realized the girl, who was the same age he was when his mother was killed, just had her own mother killed as a result of Superman. Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:No it's not. Batman literally becomes a mass-murderer I love how this has become an accepted fact about BvS online despite it not being in the movie.
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May 8, 2016 01:15
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TetsuoTW posted:What? Batmobile scene, Bat-brand scene. Chairman Capone posted:I love how this has become an accepted fact about BvS online despite it not being in the movie. The general consensus is that illegally shooting at people with machine guns leading to their deaths and crushing them in their vehicles is indeed murder. Mazzagatti2Hotty fucked around with this message at 01:19 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 01:16
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So Tony Stark and Captain America are also deranged? They kill a lot of people. That seems to go against your thesis.
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May 8, 2016 01:22
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:So Tony Stark and Captain America are also deranged? They kill a lot of people. It's only deranged when DC heroes kill people, because that makes people feel bad about themselves. When Marvel heroes kill people we giggle and clap, and that makes it okay.
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May 8, 2016 01:24
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The funniest way I ever heard Batman & Robin described was when someone (a goon I think) said "Batman and Robin is to camp what your dad making you smoke through an entire pack of cigarettes one after the other is to smoking."
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May 8, 2016 01:26
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Different characters have different goals, different standards they set for themselves. It's not too hard a concept to wrap one's head around.
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May 8, 2016 01:27
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:So Tony Stark and Captain America are also deranged? They kill a lot of people. That seems to go against your thesis. The difference would seem to be the same as the difference between a soldier killing people and a random rear end in a top hat doing it. In other words: Tony Stark, arguably, Captain America solidly no.
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May 8, 2016 01:27
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Batmobile scene, Bat-brand scene.
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May 8, 2016 01:30
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