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CelticPredator posted:Watchmen and Hamlet are pretty great and I don't have to suffer through poor storytelling to find something in it. What are the hallmarks of good story telling? (At least in regards to our current movie topic.)
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May 8, 2016 22:38
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TFRazorsaw posted:I disagree on Snyder and I disagree even heavily on Michael Bay. These movies are not subtle, they bludgeon you over the head with their themes. Putting Superman in front of a depiction of Jesus in blue and red is as loud a value statement as you can get. Hell, judging by "Communion", he's already turning the more mythological and folklore-derived New Gods into generic-looking sci-fi versions of Judeo Christian demons. Where did they say anything about subtlety? e: if u didn't block me 4 disagreeing with u
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May 8, 2016 22:39
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Harime Nui posted:This is because it's not Snyder's style to infuse his shots with MEANING so that you know you're watching AN IMPORTANT FILM about VALUES (recall that shot of, idk, layed-up Bruce on his couch, any shot of Alfred looking worried, very Spielbergian shots and so-on). Snyder goes more for the Michael Bay school of connecting images through motifs and, to lean on this maybe a little too heavily, dream-logic. Nonetheless in both the Nolan trilogy and MoS/Beavis it seems Goyer's trademark is to set up the moral conflict with trailer-friendly (dare I say comic-booky) one-liners ("victory has defeated you/do you feel in charge," vs. "I will build my world upon the bones of this one," "you will fall, because you possess a morality, and we do not. That's evolution."*) Oh man, I forgot "victory has defeated you".
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May 8, 2016 22:39
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How is being Judeo-Christian a flaw?
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May 8, 2016 22:40
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HIJK posted:What are the hallmarks of good story telling? (At least in regards to our current movie topic.) For me, it's a couple of things. Character drives story, as well as having the story flow in a natural way. Natural could mean a lot of things, I don't to really nail that down to a specific thing. Watchmen doesn't flow quite as neatly as say, Raiders of the Lost Arc, but nothing in Watchmen feels like it's unnatural to the story at hand with the characters and their lives. But that's me. It's not a law, just a personal rule.
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May 8, 2016 22:42
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There's a difference between works which are emotionally trying because bad things happen, and works which are intellectually trying because the storytelling is less than straightforward. It's the difference between Hamlet and Ulysses. Of course the latter is a legitimate style. It's a matter of debate what's good, deliberately obfuscated storytelling and what's just clumsy. I still haven't seen BvS so I can't say for sure which category it falls into (or whether it's difficult to follow at all) but it's a different thing from a movie being dark or depressing. (Ulysses isn't especially grim.)
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May 8, 2016 22:44
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Ferrinus posted:Oh man, I forgot "victory has defeated you". That would be on Jonah Nolan.
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May 8, 2016 22:44
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CelticPredator posted:For me, it's a couple of things. Character drives story, as well as having the story flow in a natural way. Natural could mean a lot of things, I don't to really nail that down to a specific thing. Watchmen doesn't flow quite as neatly as say, Raiders of the Lost Arc, but nothing in Watchmen feels like it's unnatural to the story at hand with the characters and their lives. Why would I call you dumb? I like character driven stories too. I'm trying to understand why you didn't like the BvS movie, I haven't gotten much out of your posts besides "well I didn't like it," which is too broad and then "well it didn't make me feel good" which I don't really understand. So I'm trying to get to the bottom of why. Because when I saw the movie I was surprised at just how character driven it was, that the characters were consistent (which is hard to pull off in any movie) and that their actions made sense for the arcs presented within the movie. Those characters were larger than life but they are still incredibly human and I managed to connect with them quite easily. Maxwell Lord posted:There's a difference between works which are emotionally trying because bad things happen, and works which are intellectually trying because the storytelling is less than straightforward. It's the difference between Hamlet and Ulysses. BvS is a tragedy. That's really all there is to it. It ends with bodies everywhere. The plot only gets obscure because so much is happening, I think if it was a little less packed or else had fewer cuts, it would be easier to follow. But I still managed just fine and I was in the front row, I could barely see anything hahaha.
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May 8, 2016 22:45
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TFRazorsaw posted:I disagree on Snyder and I disagree even heavily on Michael Bay. These movies are not subtle, they bludgeon you over the head with their themes. Putting Superman in front of a depiction of Jesus in blue and red is as loud a value statement as you can get. Hell, judging by "Communion", he's already turning the more mythological and folklore-derived New Gods into generic-looking sci-fi versions of Judeo Christian demons. Disagree that Snyder and Bay what, are "subtle?" I would agree they're not subtle, but they do get dismissed and thus even the very flagrant "THIS IS IMPORTANT" imagery of MoS is written off as a neanderthal's attempt at Symbolism 101 rather than picked up on, such as "you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" (which Hundu is right, is very Shatnerian mock-profundity).
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May 8, 2016 22:45
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 FOR THE NEXT 3 PAGES, THIS IS A BvS FREE ZONE. GO TO THE BvS THREAD IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT BvS So I've been hearing a lot of positive about Chadwick Boseman as Black Panther and that makes me happy. I hope after losing Ava they realized they had to pick someone and let them do as close to what they want as they can. Coogler is an amazing director and I really hope he gets to have as little studio interference as possible. Black Panther action scenes directed by Ryan Coogler just sounds awesome.
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May 8, 2016 22:45
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:How is being Judeo-Christian a flaw? In this case? I don't think the movie has anything new to say by using them. It feels stale, especially so when the source material is so unique. It's also something that speaks to a lowest common denominator (not itself a bad thing) of audience goers, to the point it implicitly connects to "values and meaning" simply by being present. I'm responding to Harime's statement that Snyder doesn't try to make a movie about those things.
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May 8, 2016 22:46
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GonSmithe posted:Black Panther action scenes directed by Ryan Coogler just sounds awesome. After what he did with Creed, yeah, Coogler doing Black Panther feels like the best possible timeline.
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May 8, 2016 22:46
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Unless I misunderstood Harime, I was pointing out that Goyer's all over the place plotting with less of a structure bothers me, and then there was a post about suffering to consume your art. Perhaps maybe there was a post I missed, but I assumed he was replying to me.
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May 8, 2016 22:47
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Edit: BvS sucks (as a subject to talk about in this thread for awhile).
Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 22:53 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 22:47
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HIJK posted:Why would I call you dumb? I like character driven stories too. I edited the post because poo poo tends to get hostile. My bad. Go to the Beavis thread, I'll be there in a bit if you want to quote this and I'll reply.
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May 8, 2016 22:48
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Holy poo poo no one noticed the memo. Well I'm looking forward to whatever bullshit Ryan Renolds gets to do for Deadpool 2 at least. That'll be fun.
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May 8, 2016 22:49
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GonSmithe posted:
Panther is extremely awesome and I am happy how prominent he was in the film. Between Boseman's performance, Coogler directing the stand alone and Coates' comic series I am basically going from not really knowing much about or being excited about the character to being a massive fan.
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May 8, 2016 22:50
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Hodgepodge, you made a very good point, and I would like to respond to it. The thread has been asked to move on, however, and for personal reasons I'd like to avoid the BvS thread. I just wanted to say though that you made a very good point and it made me think a fair bit. Anyway, so uh. Chadwick Boseman is pretty great. Coogler wrote some of his lines, right?
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May 8, 2016 22:52
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TFRazorsaw posted:Hodgepodge, you made a very good point, and I would like to respond to it. The thread has been asked to move on, however, and for personal reasons I'd like to avoid the BvS thread. I just wanted to say though that you made a very good point and it made me think a fair bit. Thanks. I'll repost it there, but I can understand avoiding it. ....at least it isn't the Prometheus thread though! 
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May 8, 2016 22:54
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GonSmithe posted:
The screenwriter for Dr. Strange was going on about how little interference they received from the studio, aside from encouragement to make the film their own. Since this will be the first film entirely conceived post-Perlmutter, that has me quite hopeful for Black Panther and beyond.
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May 8, 2016 22:57
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Boseman looks a bit like a younger Chiwetel Ejiofor. I wonder what kind of tone/attitude Black Panther will have- he's a little above a "street level" hero but not quite Iron Man either.
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May 8, 2016 22:57
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:The screenwriter for Dr. Strange was going on about how little interference they received from the studio, aside from encouragement to make the film their own. Since this will be the first film entirely conceived post-Perlmutter, that has me quite hopeful for Black Panther and beyond. I think a bunch of directors said this about their Marvel films, but you bring up a good point that I forgot about. I can't not watch something with Mads Mikkelsen in it, I hope they don't pull a Thor 2 and ruin their chance.
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May 8, 2016 23:03
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GonSmithe posted:I think a bunch of directors said this about their Marvel films Not really, at least not that I can think of. Favreau initially walked away from Iron Man 2 after they lowballed him and he was pretty vocal about how much more tightly the studio controlled him after the success of the first one; Branagh was extremely loud about how much he hated working with Marvel, obviously there's Whedon on Age of Ultron ... honestly, Leterrier, Johnston and Gunn are the only ones I can think of who didn't have unpleasant words to say about Marvel Studios, and even Leterrier clashed heavily with Norton.
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May 8, 2016 23:10
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Hodgepodge posted:Thanks. I'll repost it there, but I can understand avoiding it.
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May 8, 2016 23:12
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Timby posted:Not really, at least not that I can think of. Favreau initially walked away from Iron Man 2 after they lowballed him and he was pretty vocal about how much more tightly the studio controlled him after the success of the first one; Branagh was extremely loud about how much he hated working with Marvel, obviously there's Whedon on Age of Ultron ... honestly, Leterrier, Johnston and Gunn are the only ones I can think of who didn't have unpleasant words to say about Marvel Studios, and even Leterrier clashed heavily with Norton. I love Edward Norton, but I'm pretty sure every movie he has ever worked on has ended with the director coming out and basically saying they hate working with him.
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May 8, 2016 23:15
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:The screenwriter for Dr. Strange was going on about how little interference they received from the studio, aside from encouragement to make the film their own. Since this will be the first film entirely conceived post-Perlmutter, that has me quite hopeful for Black Panther and beyond. Honestly, if there's one Marvel film I have high hopes for, it's Dr. Strange. By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth, they had best not gently caress it up!  (I hope that by "encouragement" they mean "spiked the coffee with acid during the planning meetings").
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May 8, 2016 23:18
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Timby posted:Not really, at least not that I can think of. Favreau initially walked away from Iron Man 2 after they lowballed him and he was pretty vocal about how much more tightly the studio controlled him after the success of the first one; Branagh was extremely loud about how much he hated working with Marvel, obviously there's Whedon on Age of Ultron ... honestly, Leterrier, Johnston and Gunn are the only ones I can think of who didn't have unpleasant words to say about Marvel Studios, and even Leterrier clashed heavily with Norton. Don't forget about the whole thing with Edgar Wright!!!
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May 8, 2016 23:20
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TFRazorsaw posted:The immortal lines from the Nolanverse that stuck with me are things like "Why do we fall?", "Why so serious", "Let's put a smile on that face!", "Some men want to watch the world burn", and Gordon's final speech at the end. Nothing I've seen from BvS has proven as immediately and positively enduring (in a prophetic sense) as those were when they were heard for the first time. I think for a line to achieve what you're saying, to have the effect they did, they need to pull that off.
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May 8, 2016 23:23
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Oh woops. I didn't see the sirens. Well, uhhhh...Darkman? Darkman. Here's Darkman impersonating Bruce Willis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIT7VMVju0A
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May 8, 2016 23:25
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Hat Thoughts posted:Don't forget about the whole thing with Edgar Wright!!! Christ that one still hurts
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May 8, 2016 23:28
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TheFallenEvincar posted:I don't exactly consider the Nolanverse high cinema anyway, so no there isn't really a major difference in the line you're drawing there. I can't even remember what "Gordon's final speech at the end" was. That's fine. Personal opinion and all. In any case I didn't explain very well; I mean the speech he gives at the end of The Dark Knight.
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May 8, 2016 23:33
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About Civil War, I was astonished by the action at the end of all three acts. The editing problems that seemed to exist in the trailers didn't really show in the full length version.
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May 8, 2016 23:33
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Is there a reason Marvel isn't doing everything in their power to get Brad Bird to direct a Marvel movie?
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May 8, 2016 23:33
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Guy A. Person posted:Christ that one still hurts
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May 8, 2016 23:35
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Oops. Didn't see the modpost.
Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 23:37 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 23:35
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TheFallenEvincar posted:Oh woops. I didn't see the sirens. so many... member's only jackets.... so good....
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May 8, 2016 23:36
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achillesforever6 posted:Eh I like the changes they made for Ant Man after Weight left. Oh is that known? I mean I assumed more Marvel stuff (likely the Falcon tie in) but I didn't know if there was a comprehensive list. I'm more concerned about the direction and think it would have been more dynamic with Wright at the helm. I think some of his concepts and jokes were still obvious (like the suitcase fight and the toy train fight) but I wish he had directed them.
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May 8, 2016 23:50
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Timeless Appeal posted:Is there a reason Marvel isn't doing everything in their power to get Brad Bird to direct a Marvel movie? Someone posted previously about the possibility that Marvel's micromanagement has driven away the real talent, which means they're stuck with what they've got. Not to drag the Russos, they're good at what they do, but that's probably why. I mean, for God's sake. Edgar Wright was on their team and they still hosed that up. So no, Brad Bird probably isn't jumping on with Marvel.
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May 8, 2016 23:54
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Paul Rudd was good, Black Panther was good, Spiderman was good. Similar to bubble gum this movie lost its flavor after chewing on it for 15 minutes.
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May 9, 2016 00:21
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Guy A. Person posted:Oh is that known? I mean I assumed more Marvel stuff (likely the Falcon tie in) but I didn't know if there was a comprehensive list. I'm more concerned about the direction and think it would have been more dynamic with Wright at the helm. I think some of his concepts and jokes were still obvious (like the suitcase fight and the toy train fight) but I wish he had directed them. I can't remember what thread it was posted in (maybe BSS?) but the list of changes made after Wright's departure made it sound like a rare mark in the "win" column for studio interference. Wright's script had far less focus on Hope van Dyne and Cassie Lang, for one. Shageletic posted:About Civil War, I was astonished by the action at the end of all three acts. The editing problems that seemed to exist in the trailers didn't really show in the full length version. Yeah honestly if it weren't for the shaky cam I'd honestly feel like it had the best action of any superhero film. Even with that it was still the best I've seen in quite a while.
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May 9, 2016 00:38
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