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TwoPair posted:I couldn't stop myself from spoiling myself. Jesus, what a shitshow Someone needs to tell DC that 'the best revenge is living well' ffs. I still fail to see how this is is supposed to make Moore feel bad, like doing every dumb thing he accuses you of somehow makes him look like the fool in this scenario.
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May 24, 2016 07:13
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X-O posted:Here's the book Wally's going to be in. Written by Abnett so probably will be no good. So his costume is just Walter West + Kid Flash It might not be the worst if it was done by an art team that wasn't Booth and Dalhouse.
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May 24, 2016 07:14
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Edge & Christian posted:Give it a shot, OR DO YOU HATE FOOD? Now there's a metaphor that snapped its tethers and killed a handler.
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May 24, 2016 07:15
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So what I'm understanding is that DC went and created an even worse, longer version of Heroes Reborn?
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May 24, 2016 09:28
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Cant say for sure til the book's released but previews are looking grim.
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May 24, 2016 10:07
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 Oh I think the previews are looking fantastic. There's nothing in them I don't like.Well, almost nothing. Khaji Da being magic again seems pointless and lame. Wonder Woman having, like, a fourth secret brother sounds like a story I never need to read again. Other than that, though...Wally West? Ted Kord? Ryan Choi? Gay gay Aqualad? The ceaseless flowing tears of Watchmen fans? The other shoe's got to drop at some point but for now, drat, I'm genuinely floored at how many good things are happening.
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May 24, 2016 10:57
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BrianWilly posted:
I'm with you. The previews look fantastic so far, and I'm even coming around on the Watchmen stuff. It's ridiculous and stupid and probably going to turn out awful but the ride there is going to be crazy and I want in.
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May 24, 2016 11:11
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Wanderer posted:Now there's a metaphor that snapped its tethers and killed a handler. That was a metaphor so tortured he is being tried for Geneva convention violations.
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May 24, 2016 12:48
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Okay, so I said in the chat thread that Rebirth seems like a pretty full-throated apology to me and got the same response twice, and it's cropping up here too, and I do not get it.Decius posted:It's still mostly the same people doing it, so I think its pretty prudent to be skeptical, especially since it took them so long to do it in the first place. Ghostlight posted:"They" in this is Geoff Johns, a major contributor if not the architect of New 52, who has made cake out of the Dark Age. Edge & Christian posted:The fact that it's Johns/Didio/Lee/Berganza/Carlin/etc./etc./etc./etc./ denouncing the past 5-12 years of DC Comics is still hilarious to me. And I also don't get the complaint that they're somehow shifting blame by putting it on Dr. Manhattan. What were they supposed to do, write themselves into the comic? Turn every single character into Ambush Bug so they could go fight their own writers? There has to be a kayfabe reason why all the bad poo poo happened, and Manhattan is somehow an even more blatant stand-in for the writers than the Monitors or Unknown Men ever were. An omnipotent force from outside the universe stole ten years of history and all the joy from the DCU because gently caress it, it'd decided to tinker with something that wasn't broken. That's subtext like the sun is a flashlight.
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May 24, 2016 16:28
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If Johns was accepting the blame, it would be Hal Jordan or Superboy Prime. He's blaming Alan Moore.
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May 24, 2016 16:34
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https://youtu.be/5ypUz1WYens I forgive you. Until you gently caress up again next week.
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May 24, 2016 16:38
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Dr. Manhattan, while technically a DC property, is very much the creation of Alan Moore and there's a long and rancorous history of Moore resenting the way DC effectively cheated him out of the rights to his characters with a misleading contract. Add that to the fact that Watchmen is a genre-defining classic and remains to this day one of the smartest and most well-told stories in comics, and I don't think it's hard to see why casting one of its main characters (who is decidedly not a villain!) as the antagonist in Publicity Reboot #54423, while metatextually "blaming" Watchmen for the problems DC as a company has had with tone, rankles a little. Like, if they were doing it with one of their own properties, sure. If instead of Dr. Manhattan it was Superman #46 from the Gamma Universe, fine, that's dumb but I'm sure most people wouldn't really care. But this way it comes off them as them cack-handedly trying to pass the buck on their own mistakes by saying that one of the best comic books ever written made them do it by existing. That, plus...God, obviously it's a cash-in on Watchmen's popularity too. The whole Comedian's button thing makes no sense if the character being crossed over into mainline canon is Dr. Manhattan, but it's an easy grab for "look, the logo of Watchmen!" as DC practically winks at the audience.
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May 24, 2016 16:40
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More than that, he's blaming every writer who isn't him, because apparently he's a champion of optimism in the face of all those cynical grimdark writers, starting with Alan Moore. It's a good line and it's what a lot of people wanted to hear but it falls apart if you pay attention to anything DC and Johns in particular are famous/infamous for since 2010 or so.
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May 24, 2016 16:40
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CapnAndy posted:Yeah, the same dudes who hosed everything up are the ones who are apologizing now. Isn't that how apologies are supposed to work? You don't apologize by pointing at another guy (a guy who DC notoriously and widely hosed over) and going "it's really his fault I hosed up." Even if Geoff Johns is arguing that he misread Watchmen and took the wrong lessons from it, that doesn't change the fact he's using Watchmen as the corruptive force and blaming it instead of his own mistakes. (And he's said as much in interviews so this isn't a case of 'wait and see.')
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May 24, 2016 16:42
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Literally nothing I have read makes it seem like Johns recognizes that he might have been even a little at fault which undercuts this apology mightily.
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May 24, 2016 16:55
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Seriously, the narrative of big events at DC for this entire run have been meta-apologies. 2006's Infinite Crisis: "Something terribly wrong has happened to the universe, things are so dark and no one trusts anyone and we've got to turn a corner into a BRIGHT NEW ERA that shouldn't be full of sadness and rape and genocide. We just had to really amp up the rape and murder in order to make it clear we're past that now." 2008's Final Crisis: "Some sort of horrible outside force is corrupting the universe, murder and twisted versions of heroes everyone. So much sadness and trauma. Something's WRONG with the universe, but once it's fixed we'll have a brighter tomorrow!" 2009's Blackest Night: "Some sort of horrible outside force is corrupting the universe, murder and twisted versions of heroes everyone. So much sadness and trauma. Something's WRONG with the universe, but once it's fixed we'll have a brighter tomorrow!" 2011's Flashpoint: "Some sort of horrible outside force is corrupting the universe, murder and twisted versions of heroes everyone. So much sadness and trauma. Something's WRONG with the universe, but once it's fixed we'll have a brighter tomorrow!" 2013's Forever Evil: "Some sort of horrible outside force is corrupting the universe, murder and twisted versions of heroes everyone. So much sadness and trauma. Something's WRONG with the universe, but once it's fixed we'll have a brighter tomorrow!" 2015's Futures End: "Some sort of horrible outside force is corrupting the universe, murder and twisted versions of heroes everyone. So much sadness and trauma. Something's WRONG with the universe, but once it's fixed we'll have a brighter tomorrow!" 2016's Rebirth: "Some sort of horrible outside force is corrupting the universe, murder and twisted versions of heroes everyone. So much sadness and trauma. Something's WRONG with the universe, but once it's fixed we'll have a brighter tomorrow!" These apologies don't mean poo poo, there is kind of a pattern of behavior here? The same people apologizing for the same behavior with no history of actually changing anything isn't much of an apology
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May 24, 2016 17:00
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ImpAtom posted:You don't apologize by pointing at another guy (a guy who DC notoriously and widely hosed over) and going "it's really his fault I hosed up."
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May 24, 2016 17:02
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CapnAndy posted:All the dumb motherfuckers who misread Watchmen and took the wrong lessons from it is absolutely a corruptive force, though. I mean, Final Crisis literally called Alan Moore the corrupting force at the center of everything and a vampire who was bleeding DC to death because they couldn't shake his malign influence. Right. And that is why it's lovely. They keep blaming the dude who they hosed over and wants nothing to do with them because he wrote good stories. Instead of acknowledging their own flaws the point at a story and a writer and go 'it's his fault! HIS FAULT!"
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May 24, 2016 17:05
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I, for one, can't wait until the 2017 event where they have to overcome an outside force corrupting the universe.
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May 24, 2016 17:12
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CapnAndy posted:Okay, so I said in the chat thread that Rebirth seems like a pretty full-throated apology to me and got the same response twice, and it's cropping up here too, and I do not get it. The only real apology needed is to make decent comics for a while, and there's a certain amount of justified cynicism about whether or not this particular office is capable of doing so.
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May 24, 2016 17:14
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Endless Mike posted:I, for one, can't wait until the 2017 event where they have to overcome an outside force corrupting the universe.
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May 24, 2016 17:17
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Edge & Christian posted:Seriously, the narrative of big events at DC for this entire run have been meta-apologies. Also from what I know, Forever Evil was "oh no the Crime Syndicate is here and busting poo poo up, everyone's gotta fight 'em" and Future's End was "the future is gonna really suck so a guy came back to try and prevent his bad future" and neither sounds meta or like an apology to me, but like I said, I didn't read 'em. Maybe they were super deep and totally doing that stuff you said. I'll agree with you that Final Crisis was saying the exact same thing as Rebirth is, but Final Crisis was 100% Grant Morrison, not Geoff Johns. Lumping him in with "the same people apologizing for the same behavior with no history of actually changing anything" is disingenuous in the extreme, especially trying to change things was how he spent his rather short time with Superman and his very long time with Batman. I think Final Crisis and Rebirth have very different tones, though. Here's what I see: Final Crisis was a warning that Dark Age bullshit was poisoning DC and had to be purged before it became fatal. Nobody listened, and Morrison left DC soon after. Six years later, Rebirth comes out and admits that yeah, Dark Age bullshit was poisoning DC and not only did nobody listen, they made things way worse. They've elucidated every reason I had for walking away after Flashpoint and are going on record as saying that yes, all of those things were mistakes that ruined everything. It reads as a sincere apology to me, so I'm going to give them a chance to prove that they are in fact sincere. If it turns out to just be another hollow apology with no change in behavior, then I walk away again, but I simply don't see the sense in getting angry about hypothetical bad things they haven't done yet when maybe they will do good things instead.
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May 24, 2016 17:27
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Geoff Johns, the architect of the New 52 who killed his own favorite team and his own favorite character. Yep.
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May 24, 2016 17:30
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CapnAndy posted:All the dumb motherfuckers who misread Watchmen and took the wrong lessons from it is absolutely a corruptive force, though. I mean, Final Crisis literally called Alan Moore the corrupting force at the center of everything and a vampire who was bleeding DC to death because they couldn't shake his malign influence. See, I think the issue is that DC appears, on its face, to be blaming Watchmen and not "All the dumb motherfuckers who misread Watchmen and took the wrong lessons from it". And it's the dumb motherfuckers that are the corruptive force, so how the hell do they get to be blameless while Alan Moore becomes the vampire bleeding DC to death? Was he dressed too provocatively? Was he asking for it?
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May 24, 2016 17:33
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Oh, good, DC is giving away the Rebirth one-shot for free so I can legally read it and still not have to support it with my money. https://m.comixology.com/redeem?code=DCRebirthDCGames
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May 24, 2016 17:34
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CapnAndy posted:
Except Morrison never left DC. He finished out his run on Batman, did a run on Action Comics, wrote the Earth One Wonder Woman book, did his Multiversity miniseries, and is following that up eventually with a sequel. And in nearly all of these books, he's criticized DC to some extent or another for these same issues. It'd be great if DC sincerely recognized these criticisms and followed through correcting them, but they've known about the problems since Infinite Crisis, of which both Johns and Morrison where major writers, and sense then Johns has climbed to the top of the DC corporate chain. So it seems really disingenuous for him to say now, after all this time, that he's getting around to changing DC for the better, especially since he won't be writing any of these new stories in the foreseeable future.
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May 24, 2016 17:45
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:See, I think the issue is that DC appears, on its face, to be blaming Watchmen and not "All the dumb motherfuckers who misread Watchmen and took the wrong lessons from it". And it's the dumb motherfuckers that are the corruptive force, so how the hell do they get to be blameless while Alan Moore becomes the vampire bleeding DC to death? Hey buddy I get your point but let's not start comparing the possible misuse of comic characters to rape.
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May 24, 2016 17:55
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It's not that they're all meta, it's that DC (and by DC I mean specifically Dan Didio and Geoff Johns, architects of the the DC universe for the past 10-12 years) have basically one trick in their toolbox, which is "dark twisted versions of heroes do horrible stuff, some of the heroes turn out to be villains" and then horrible stuff that upsets people happen so that they can come out the other side and do a big montage of all of the heroes being heroic in this new heroic era. And then they do the exact same thing a year or two later. It's not explicitly written into the comics themselves but after every interview after Infinite Crisis onwards has been about how they had to (temporarily) make things very dark and violent and cynical and mean, but it's to show how the heroes can overcome that. And then they keep being dark and violent and cynical and mean. It's great that in round six or seven of it, they go "hey guys, this is an apology for the last six times we did it" but if I get drunk and crash your sixth car and go "man, you know, I really have to stop getting drunk and getting into drag races, sorry." are you going to go "EXCELLENT. HERE ARE MY KEYS."?
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May 24, 2016 17:59
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Edge & Christian posted:It's not that they're all meta, it's that DC (and by DC I mean specifically Dan Didio and Geoff Johns, architects of the the DC universe for the past 10-12 years) have basically one trick in their toolbox, which is "dark twisted versions of heroes do horrible stuff, some of the heroes turn out to be villains" and then horrible stuff that upsets people happen so that they can come out the other side and do a big montage of all of the heroes being heroic in this new heroic era. Plus, you know, Watchmen is actually a well-constructed work, with payoffs that are earned through deep character work and plot threads and poo poo. Not just "A Crazy Woman Did it" or "Well it turns out a giant space bug made me evil!"
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May 24, 2016 18:08
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Edge & Christian posted:It's great that in round six or seven of it, they go "hey guys, this is an apology for the last six times we did it" but if I get drunk and crash your sixth car and go "man, you know, I really have to stop getting drunk and getting into drag races, sorry." are you going to go "EXCELLENT. HERE ARE MY KEYS."? Do we really need the metaphors, though? DC published lovely comics for a long time, so I stopped buying their lovely comics. Now they are putting out a comic that says "hey we've been putting out lovely comics for a long time, this is an apology for that". I'm willing to accept their apology and see if they put out comics that aren't lovely now. If they do, I walk away again. All they've won from me is a chance to prove they're not poo poo now, but my bar for getting to even that was really high, so for now, I'm just pleased they managed to clear it. CapnAndy fucked around with this message at 18:19 on May 24, 2016 |
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May 24, 2016 18:17
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Barry Convex posted:Oh, good, DC is giving away the Rebirth one-shot for free so I can legally read it and still not have to support it with my money. Dangit, all the codes were used. Anyway, I don't really care about all this, but if the second series of Prez never happens, I'm gonna be pissed either way.
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May 24, 2016 18:22
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CapnAndy posted:It ain't my car they've been crashing. I mean, that's cool, and I do think a lot of the Rebirth stuff looks great, but for some of us that bar is a little higher, because it's the same people who published lovely comics for so long that you stopped reading them. The month-to-month stories will be the true test, if they can stop having people rip arms off, murder dozens of children, and having Batman tell his son it's OK to murder people sometimes, and maybe not feel the need to relaunch everything in six months.
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May 24, 2016 18:26
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:See, I think the issue is that DC appears, on its face, to be blaming Watchmen and not "All the dumb motherfuckers who misread Watchmen and took the wrong lessons from it". And it's the dumb motherfuckers that are the corruptive force, so how the hell do they get to be blameless while Alan Moore becomes the vampire bleeding DC to death? Johns came out and said Dr. Manhattan has a cynical view of life which means he himself is a dumb motherfucker who misread Watchmen, so I doubt he's criticizing those people. He's blaming other creators and placing himself as the harbinger of hope because he gets it and he's taking charge and making sure hope comes back! Like, look. He wrote Wally telling Barry nothing was his fault and it's all Dr. Manhattan! So he pretty much wrote the fans (Wally) telling Johns (Barry) that the New 52 wasn't his fault, it was actually this other guy (Alan Moore)!
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May 24, 2016 18:28
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The Joker's real name is going to be Eddie Blake 
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May 24, 2016 18:34
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CapnAndy posted:It ain't my car they've been crashing. quote:Do we really need the metaphors, though? DC published lovely comics for a long time, so I stopped buying their lovely comics. Now they are putting out a comic that says "hey we've been putting out lovely comics for a long time, this is an apology for that". I'm willing to accept their apology and see if they put out comics that aren't lovely now. If they do, I walk away again. All they've won from me is a chance to prove they're not poo poo now, but my bar for getting to even that was really high, so for now, I'm just pleased they managed to clear it.
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May 24, 2016 18:35
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You guys are trying a bit too hard to convince him not to try out these comics to see if they're good.
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May 24, 2016 18:44
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He came to the thread specifically asking why so many people didn't share his outlook on DC's apparent apology, and people responded. But yeah, no point it trying to change his opinion if he understands our point of view now.
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May 24, 2016 18:50
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CapnAndy posted:And I also don't get the complaint that they're somehow shifting blame by putting it on Dr. Manhattan. What were they supposed to do, write themselves into the comic? Turn every single character into Ambush Bug so they could go fight their own writers? There has to be a kayfabe reason why all the bad poo poo happened, and Manhattan is somehow an even more blatant stand-in for the writers than the Monitors or Unknown Men ever were. An omnipotent force from outside the universe stole ten years of history and all the joy from the DCU because gently caress it, it'd decided to tinker with something that wasn't broken. That's subtext like the sun is a flashlight. Pandora's the avatar of hope and the icon of the New 52. If it was revealed that Pandora failed, or they retconned that Dr. M created the New 52 and he failed, or that Dr. M created the New 52 and was evil and intentionally created it to fail, then the analogy works. As it stands, if the rumors are true then even the apology shifts blame to without then from within. Pandora would've been successful but unfortunately Dr. Manhattan came along and killed her. The New 52 would've been successful but then that goddamn grimdarkness came along and ruined it. It's a disingenuous apology.
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May 24, 2016 18:57
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Edge & Christian posted:How would you feel about them borrowing cars in general? quote:The same people have been putting out lovely comics for over a decade now, and they say they're going to do better every couple of years. What part of this apology/'apology' is more convincing for you? Is it Wally? So then they did Convergence and I said to them "okay so how are you fixing your poo poo?" and they said "huh? Nothing wrong with our poo poo, but we're putting the multiverse back and you can pretend all the characters you love are there while we change nothing" and I went "haha okay, gently caress you then". So then they did DC You and I said "so how are you fixing your poo poo?" and they said "we're exposing the Clark Kent identity and character assassinating the everloving gently caress out of Lois Lane" and I went "holy god you dumb fucks ain't learned nothin'". This time I'm saying "so how are you fixing your poo poo?" and they're handing me back basically exactly my list of reasons why I walked away and going "those were all bad ideas, we're not doing it any more". So yeah, this is different. Toxxupation posted:Pandora's the avatar of hope and the icon of the New 52. If it was revealed that Pandora failed, or they retconned that Dr. M created the New 52 and he failed, or that Dr. M created the New 52 and was evil and intentionally created it to fail, then the analogy works. As it stands, if the rumors are true then even the apology shifts blame to without then from within. Pandora would've been successful but unfortunately Dr. Manhattan came along and killed her. The New 52 would've been successful but then that goddamn grimdarkness came along and ruined it. It's a disingenuous apology. CapnAndy fucked around with this message at 19:13 on May 24, 2016 |
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May 24, 2016 19:08
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Two Tone Shoes posted:You guys are trying a bit too hard to convince him not to try out these comics to see if they're good. To be fair most seem to be mocking him for falling for the line DC has been using every couple years for the past decade. Which is kind of what we do here. Hint: nothing is going to change. Unless Johns and Dan had a Saul of Damascus moment.
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May 24, 2016 19:14
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