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CapnAndy posted:I can't see Pandora as the avatar of hope because she's the icon of the New 52 and the New 52 was loving hopeless. She's the avatar of grimdark and dumb bullshit. Obviously we both need to actually read the scene to see how it plays, but from my perspective killing her is just a statement that the New 52 failed and is getting dragged out back behind the barn and shot in the face, which is what it's always deserved. But that was the point of Pandora from Flashpoint. She gives Barry Allen the chance to fix what was wrong and to enter the universe into a new, brighter age. Just because the New 52 immediately turned to grimdark and dumb bullshit doesn't mean that as established from the reboot Pandora wasn't meant to usher in a new, brighter age. And considering the killing of Pandora is meant to come across as a bad thing, and considering what Geoff Johns has actually said (notably that cynicism and pessimism has killed optimism and hope), that's exactly the purpose of having Dr. M kill Pandora. From Johns' own mouth the killing of Pandora is not a corrective action, but a dark and depressing one. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 20:16 on May 24, 2016 |
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May 24, 2016 19:21
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Yeah that's what he's trying to accomplish but he's failing because nobody but him sees Pandora as an embodiment of anything but horseshit.
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May 24, 2016 19:30
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Edge & Christian posted:How would you feel about them borrowing cars in general? At what point in this metaphor do I get to make a "You wouldn't download a car" joke?
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May 24, 2016 19:30
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Also they are symbolically overcoming the grimdark of new 52 by having a woman murdered, and that is so hilariously DC Comics I might actually die
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May 24, 2016 19:37
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So here's something they didn't do before. http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/geoff-johns-offers-to-buy-back-dc-universe-rebirth-1-if-fans-arent-satisfied quote:If anyone wants to check out comics, wants to check out 'DC Universe: Rebirth' #1 and doesn't like it, they can mail it to Warner Bros., to me, and I will send them a check, I literally will, for both postage and for the book," Johns told ComicBook.com. "I will buy all these books back because I believe in this issue a lot. I think it'll do very well. I hope it does well. But I seriously will, I'll buy back this book. An amusing gesture, at least.
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May 24, 2016 19:41
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Oh boy. The "promising to personally refund anyone who doesn't like a work of fiction" move is the death knell of quality.
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May 24, 2016 19:43
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Two Tone Shoes posted:So here's something they didn't do before. He is going to get so many frigging comics. Not even because the issue is bad or something.
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May 24, 2016 19:44
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Travis343 posted:Also they are symbolically overcoming the grimdark of new 52 by having a woman murdered, and that is so hilariously DC Comics I might actually die
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May 24, 2016 20:00
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ImpAtom posted:He is going to get so many frigging comics. Not even because the issue is bad or something.
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May 24, 2016 20:11
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Also I know this has been said but the watchmen literally being the villains is the most Johns thing that has ever been written.
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May 24, 2016 20:14
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ImpAtom posted:He is going to get so many frigging comics. Not even because the issue is bad or something. Seriously he just guaranteed everybody an essentially free comic book as long as they're willing to go to the post office and send it back.
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May 24, 2016 21:17
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Here's Bleeding Cool trying to piece together some stuff that might tie into this big twist. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/05/24/what-else-has-geoff-johns-been-hiding-under-our-noses-the-whole-time-dc-universe-rebirth-1-spoilers/
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May 24, 2016 21:20
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SirDan3k posted:Yeah that's what he's trying to accomplish but he's failing because nobody but him sees Pandora as an embodiment of anything but horseshit. Since nobody likes Pandora and she was already established as the in-universe creator of the New 52, why not just reveal her as the real villain? At least the meta-criticism would be vaguely coherent.
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May 24, 2016 22:02
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Because Pandora is terrible and doing away with her completely is preferable to trying to redeem the character by giving her even more importance.
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May 24, 2016 22:03
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Again I'm going to ask: People keep saying "Johns has learned nothing! He's done the same bullshit again and again!" but what was the most bullshit thing he did in the Nu52? There are so many poorly-conceived, tacky, outright vile things about the Nu52 that I or anyone else here could name which drove readers sprinting in the opposite direction, but -- and I'm really racking my brain here -- I think maybe four or five percent of them, at a stretch, had anything to do with Johns? Meanwhile we're getting not-troubled-stereotype-Wally (while keeping the new Wally so he can grow into his own character), we're getting Ted Kord and Jaime Reyes together, we got a Superman who's married to Lois Lane, we have a gay character of color seemingly influenced by the well-received Young Justice show, we've got two pages devoted to Ryan Choi in an abject reversal of his disgusting murder that signaled the snowballing death knell of the old DC Universe. And there's still nearly sixty pages of the book that hasn't been revealed yet. It certainly seems to me like he has learned a lot. It's like he's checking off things one by one on the grand ol' "List of things to do in order to fix this horrid universe" whiteboard.
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May 24, 2016 22:04
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BrianWilly posted:There are so many poorly-conceived, tacky, outright vile things about the Nu52 that I or anyone else here could name which drove readers sprinting in the opposite direction, but -- and I'm really racking my brain here -- I think maybe four or five percent of them, at a stretch, had anything to do with Johns? His run on JL was really bad for a really, really long time (Apparently it got better?) and set the tone for the rest of the New 52. It was also one of the bestselling books of the New 52 and outside of the BatBooks, which practically live in their own little separate universe away from the rest of everything else, set the creative direction to follow. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 22:15 on May 24, 2016 |
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May 24, 2016 22:13
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I don't know how anything in Justice League, no matter how bad, would've set the tone for stuff like Bar Torr or angry black Wally or the Harley Quinn suicide contest or rapist Amazons or anything like that, but okay sure let's blame Johns for those.
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May 24, 2016 22:23
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Read it cover to cover. This is going to be a bigger clusterfuck than the New 52 was.
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May 24, 2016 22:24
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BrianWilly posted:I don't know how anything in Justice League, no matter how bad, would've set the tone for stuff like Bar Torr or angry black Wally or the Harley Quinn suicide contest or rapist Amazons or anything like that, but okay sure let's blame Johns for those. Are you seriously wondering how the Chief Creative Officer for the entirety of New 52, and the one who architected the event leading into it, the one that allowed black Wally to exist in the first place, and the writer of the main book of the New 52 (if one considers JL the main book of the New 52), could be to blame for the bad creative direction of the New 52? Even if his pen didn't literally hit the page for all the worst excesses of New 52, as CCO he along with DiDio and Lee were the three main people who determined its creative direction. gently caress, that's Geoff Johns' explicit job - there's an assumption that DiDio and Lee, being co-publishers and all, have to set time with the actual running of the company and its business dealings so their hands on creative are less felt. He's the architect of the New 52. The buck stops with him. It's his fault, along with DiDio and Lee, why the New 52 sucked.
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May 24, 2016 22:31
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If you've felt burned by Johns in the past, I don't at all see how any of this would convince you to give him another shot. Everything we've seen so far is Johnsian literalism taken to its absurd conclusion. Rebirth doesn't seem that different from any other Johns-led event/ crossover, save for that it seems like he's blaming Watchmen/Moore for his misinterpretation of the work. I mean I'm in the tank for both Bendis, and Grant Morrison, but I don't suggest their work to people I know don't enjoy their style, when they're perpetuating that style.
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May 24, 2016 22:32
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Like I said before, it's difficult to say exactly what is Johns fault vs. Didio vs. Jim Lee especially since you've got Johns as a writer on some books and Johns as chief creative executive or whatever his title is. I tend to dislike Didio and Lee more for setting the editorial and visual tone of DC for so long but the three of them are all basically in cahoots here. Johns is getting singled out because Didio and Lee didn't just do a bunch of interviews talking about how they were going to fix DC ignoring that they're the ones that broke it in the first place.
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May 24, 2016 22:33
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Rhyno posted:Read it cover to cover.  I think I'm going to pick up a copy & resend it to Mr. Johns, just so I can have the check.
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May 24, 2016 22:48
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Yvonmukluk posted:
I really hope a shitload of people call him on that. I'm going to pick up a copy just to do it.
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May 24, 2016 22:57
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All of my friends that have seen the news so far are planning on it. Geoff Johns refund check collector's item of the year?
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May 24, 2016 22:59
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Rhyno posted:I really hope a shitload of people call him on that. I'm going to pick up a copy just to do it. And add another throughsold copy to the count, so they can brag about the book going to 5 printings?
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May 24, 2016 23:00
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Gaz-L posted:And add another throughsold copy to the count, so they can brag about the book going to 5 printings? They don't track actual copies sold, just what stores order.
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May 24, 2016 23:05
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Dreqqus posted:All of my friends that have seen the news so far are planning on it. Geoff Johns refund check collector's item of the year? It won't be a collector's item if everyone has one. The actual book might be rarer.
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May 24, 2016 23:18
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X-O posted:Here's Bleeding Cool trying to piece together some stuff that might tie into this big twist. I don't know why Rich keeps saying Mr. Oz/Ozymandias(?) "trained" Nu52 Superman. I just went back and read Johns' Superman run. Mr. Oz doesn't do poo poo except talk cryptically to screens and send Superman a black notebook at the end. I mean, it's implied that he orchestrated the events of that run, but I'd hardly call that "training", unless Lex Luthor's been training Superman since the 30s.
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May 24, 2016 23:27
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BrianWilly posted:but okay sure let's blame Johns for those. Buuuuuut on the other hand there have been some pretty choice words from the creative side on how DC runs its affairs and it doesn't exactly inspire much sympathy for the upper ranks.
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May 24, 2016 23:28
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TwoPair posted:I don't know why Rich keeps saying Mr. Oz/Ozymandias(?) "trained" Nu52 Superman. I just went back and read Johns' Superman run. Mr. Oz doesn't do poo poo except talk cryptically to screens and send Superman a black notebook at the end. I mean, it's implied that he orchestrated the events of that run, but I'd hardly call that "training", unless Lex Luthor's been training Superman since the 30s. He specifically says that "I taught you that."
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May 24, 2016 23:30
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TwoPair posted:I don't know why Rich keeps saying Mr. Oz/Ozymandias(?) "trained" Nu52 Superman. I just went back and read Johns' Superman run. Mr. Oz doesn't do poo poo except talk cryptically to screens and send Superman a black notebook at the end. I mean, it's implied that he orchestrated the events of that run, but I'd hardly call that "training", unless Lex Luthor's been training Superman since the 30s. Well in the panel posted right there Oz says that he taught Superman.
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May 24, 2016 23:30
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Hoisted by my own petard again 
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May 24, 2016 23:47
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Toxxupation posted:Are you seriously wondering how the Chief Creative Officer for the entirety of New 52, and the one who architected the event leading into it, the one that allowed black Wally to exist in the first place, and the writer of the main book of the New 52 (if one considers JL the main book of the New 52), could be to blame for the bad creative direction of the New 52? And if we're blaming Johns' "creative direction" for somehow making the Nu52 suck, well, it certainly looks like his "creative direction" for DC Rebirth is pretty different, so why shouldn't that be a good thing? Dreqqus posted:If you've felt burned by Johns in the past, I don't at all see how any of this would convince you to give him another shot. Everything we've seen so far is Johnsian literalism taken to its absurd conclusion. Rebirth doesn't seem that different from any other Johns-led event/ crossover, save for that it seems like he's blaming Watchmen/Moore for his misinterpretation of the work. Like, everyone in this forum has been yakking for years about how DC should just get rid of the Nu52 and bring back their old universe, but now we don't think it's a good thing that it's literally happening? Why, because Johns is daring to impugn a thirty-year-old sacrosanct comic book with his filthy irresponsible literalism?
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May 24, 2016 23:56
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BrianWilly posted:Like, everyone in this forum has been yakking for years about how DC should just get rid of the Nu52 and bring back their old universe, but now we don't think it's a good thing that it's literally happening? Why, because Johns is daring to impugn a thirty-year-old sacrosanct comic book with his filthy irresponsible literalism? Because it's the same fuckin' people who break everything else they touch. If this editorial staff promised everyone free cake, they'd show up with used urinal cakes and defend themselves by citing their exact wording.
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May 25, 2016 00:15
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X-O posted:Here's Bleeding Cool trying to piece together some stuff that might tie into this big twist.
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May 25, 2016 00:17
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BrianWilly posted:Like, everyone in this forum has been yakking for years about how DC should just get rid of the Nu52 and bring back their old universe, but now we don't think it's a good thing that it's literally happening? Why, because Johns is daring to impugn a thirty-year-old sacrosanct comic book with his filthy irresponsible literalism? Like... yes? Unless you think the ends justifies the means and it doesn't matter how they get away from the Nu52 as long as they do it. Folks here seem to be expressing themselves pretty clearly why they are skeptical based on leaks/previews and past experience.
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May 25, 2016 00:23
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BrianWilly posted:And if we're blaming Johns' "creative direction" for somehow making the Nu52 suck, well, it certainly looks like his "creative direction" for DC Rebirth is pretty different, so why shouldn't that be a good thing? Yes, if your checklist is "I want Wally West and Ted Kord and ______ to be in comic books", congratulations, they're back in comic books. With any luck, the same people responsible for making them go away, the people who orchestrated Ted Kord's murder, the replacement of Wally West, the erasure of his wife and kids, etc. will totally do those characters right this time. As for why people are blaming Geoff Johns (and Jim Lee and Dan Didio and Eddie Berganza and Bob Harras and Bobbie Chase and etc. etc. etc.) for what happens in books *they don't even write*: they're the editors and publishers. They decide who gets to pitch comics to them, and those people for Rebirth are largely the same people who have been pitching and writing comics for them during the last 3-5 lovely revamps. They're continuing to pick them for jobs, and they approved the last X lovely books by them, so the idea that the exact same people being selected by the exact same people will be better now that there's lip service to "love" and "legacy" and I guess maybe you'll get to see Ted Kord in the background does not give a lot of people hope for improvement. This isn't even the first time that this group of editors have paid lip service to these concepts, and we still end up with Superboy Prime and The Matchmaker and Rise of Arsenal and Kid Flash, Mass Murderer after pretty much every revamp. Also with both New 52 and Rebirth, multiple people had to pitch their ideas for each book (probably with a few superstar exceptions, but who knows), and the people selected had extensive sit-downs with Didio/Johns to plot out what they planned to do with the books. If you hated _________ in the New 52, it wasn't like that writer snuck off and wrote six issues of the book and then Johns/Didio/Lee came back from vacation and were all YOU DID WHAAAT? Even if they did, that writer is more than likely still writing something for Rebirth. So uh.... it'll be better this time, I read an interview about not being like Watchmen.
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May 25, 2016 00:40
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I'm about to drop a truth bomb that's going to blow this whole thread wide open and make you reevaluate everything that's been said thus far. You guys ready? Here it comes: Geoff Johns didn't like the New 52.
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May 25, 2016 02:22
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Noted New 52 Hater Geoff Johns will be on Late Night tonight to presumably ruin Rebirth for everyone just hours before it's released.
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May 25, 2016 02:39
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The full splash page with every character from rebirth has been released Any idea who's the guy in the yellow shirt in the bottom left?
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May 25, 2016 02:52
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