|
Holy poo poo I love Old Man Logan. The art is fantastic, this was a great issue.
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 15:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 19:06 |
|
|
SynthOrange posted:Oh yeah I forgot Cap's new shield was in this. Haha, how terrible/gimmicky was it? He can split it and it has a laser blade at the tip to cut metal. It's very action figure-y.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 16:22
|
|
|
So CW2 is interesting. We basically have one side wanting to utilize the ability to see future events and prevent bad things from happening, and the other side does...not? I'm a little confused there, Tony just doesn't want to rely on future predictions? Or just wants the predictions to not happen in the first place? His argument against it was fine, but his emotional reaction at the end of course (once again) makes it hard to back him up because of how he's handling it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 16:30
|
|
|
OnimaruXLR posted:It finally happened. Bendis is worse than Millar now. He's been slipping for a long time now, but man... I really liked Ultimate Spider-Man! Why now?
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 16:34
|
|
Sunrise, sunset
|
This whole CW2 situation at the end with She-Hulk. Doesn't A-Force have a healer? Aren't there at least a couple of healers around in the Marvel universe? Or like anyone with magic? It just seems really stupid to me that they're still bound to conventional medicine in a world of mutants and inhumans and all that crazy poo poo. Like is there really no contingency or means to treat She-Hulk if she's seriously injured? Also, it's really dumb to play the "someone died" card when at this point like everyone but one or two people have died and been brought back one way or another. Like just go to heaven or hell or limbo or whatever and bring them back. Or wish them back. Or clone them back. Or pull from them another universe back.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 16:34
|
|
|
I love how Tony acts like he has some moral high ground when earlier in the issue he loving brags about how bad Rhodey's armor is compared to his. Like, maybe give him the suit that can get punched by Thanos instead of being a huge jerk.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 16:41
|
|
|
Tony's insane protectiveness about his armor tech has never, ever made sense to me. You have to have a fundamental belief that you're better than the entire rest of humanity to think that if your technology was reverse engineered it would lead to more war crimes than awesome heroes.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 16:46
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:Tony's insane protectiveness about his armor tech has never, ever made sense to me. You have to have a fundamental belief that you're better than the entire rest of humanity to think that if your technology was reverse engineered it would lead to more war crimes than awesome heroes. the craziest thing is that, meanwhile, in Invincible Iron Man, THAT EXACT THING YOU JUST SAID happens, and it's totally fine
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 16:49
|
|
|
It was interesting enough, but yeah the "someone died" bit was eh.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 16:50
|
|
|
Kingtheninja posted:So CW2 is interesting. We basically have one side wanting to utilize the ability to see future events and prevent bad things from happening, and the other side does...not? I'm a little confused there, Tony just doesn't want to rely on future predictions? Or just wants the predictions to not happen in the first place? It's Minority Report. Future Predictions only have to be flawed once for them to be completely unreliable and if you're acting on pre-crime then you have no reasonable way of knowing when it is flawed because you're stopping it before it actually happens.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 16:55
|
|
|
Plus, arresting someone for something they MAY do is pretty sketchy. I'll be honest, I'm not reading the main mini, but just based on the premise, I'm all in on Team Iron Man.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 16:56
|
|
|
Yeah but it would own bones to be able to send someone around to prevent or even mitigate the immediate impact of the criming/disaster. And even if it advanced to the point of pre-crime detention, arrests have always been based on fallible analysis of imperfect knowledge. That's (in theory) why there are trials afterward. A decently-accurate pre-crime mindlord could provide cause to at least get a warrant to search for hard evidence of things that involve intention and planning, plus the aforementioned ability to intervene to stop accidents/disasters/crimes of passion. It's not a whole lot different from pervasive surveillance with strong predictive analysis of the surveiled information—except it removes the creepy surveillance part.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 17:33
|
|
|
Squizzle posted:Yeah but it would own bones to be able to send someone around to prevent or even mitigate the immediate impact of the criming/disaster. And even if it advanced to the point of pre-crime detention, arrests have always been based on fallible analysis of imperfect knowledge. That's (in theory) why there are trials afterward. A decently-accurate pre-crime mindlord could provide cause to at least get a warrant to search for hard evidence of things that involve intention and planning, plus the aforementioned ability to intervene to stop accidents/disasters/crimes of passion. There's a significant difference between fallible evidence and literally unprovable evidence. Also "someone is literally spying on you through precognition or telepathy" isn't less creepy than surveillance. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jun 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 17:43
|
|
|
Wait, are you guys telling me superheroes might be acting without proper police procedure?
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 17:47
|
|
|
If we don't get a Tom Cruise lookalike cameo in CWII, they are really loving up.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 17:52
|
|
|
I really, really loved CWII #1. Really on board for the long haul.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:06
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:There's a significant difference between fallible evidence and literally unprovable evidence. Depends how it works. The newspaper from the hit CBS primetime blandfest Early Edition wasn't creepy. If the powers are literally mental flashes of the next week's police reports, that's not creepy. If they're visions specifically of deaths or violence or psychic traumas or w/e, that's not creepy to me. If it's just the ability to watch people, at will, with psychic remote viewing, but time-displaced—that's both creepy and too many commas. Even if the predictions end up intrusive by, like, predicting suicides or domestic violence or other "in the home" things, I'm not entirely averse to that. It all depends what sort of system is built to handle it, and how well the people involved apply that system. And for things like plotting to murder someone, you actually could prove stuff to within a reasonable degree of certainty. Record the mento-crimestopper's prediction, and seal it the recording. On the basis of that prediction, request a search warrant. Send officers who don't know all of the most specific details of the prediction to execute the warrant. If what they find is in perfect accord with the details of the prediction—details unknown to them, remember, because the prediction has been sealed—then you move forward with charges. As a nice bonus, people end up with charges about attempting or conspiring to do a thing, instead of the harsher charges/penalties associated with doing those things. We already live in a world where we handle crime by trying to reconstruct the past based on imperfect understanding of limited evidence. I'm Ok with the hypothetical scenario of trying to construct a model of the future based on strong, testably-accurate evidence, provided that: it's no less accurate than the existing retroactive methods; the application is overwhelmingly preventative instead of punitive; where it does become punitive, the same strong standards of proof are applied as to post-crime law; and that punitive action be based on conspiracy/plotting type charges instead of the charges associated with actually doing the thing in question.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:17
|
|
|
Happy Noodle Boy posted:This whole CW2 situation at the end with She-Hulk. Doesn't A-Force have a healer? Aren't there at least a couple of healers around in the Marvel universe? Or like anyone with magic? It just seems really stupid to me that they're still bound to conventional medicine in a world of mutants and inhumans and all that crazy poo poo. Like is there really no contingency or means to treat She-Hulk if she's seriously injured? I'm expecting some kind of swerve on that, because it's dopey. She-Hulk was injured by one of War Machine's missiles going off in her face, which means Rhodey's out rocking around the world with ordinance that can kill a Hulk as part of his kit.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:18
|
|
|
Yeah... she hulk has been hit with way worse things and just hit back because she is a hulk. Lame contrivances are the worst part of comics, especially when they exist for no reason.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:26
|
|
|
Squizzle posted:And for things like plotting to murder someone, you actually could prove stuff to within a reasonable degree of certainty. Record the mento-crimestopper's prediction, and seal it the recording. On the basis of that prediction, request a search warrant. Send officers who don't know all of the most specific details of the prediction to execute the warrant. If what they find is in perfect accord with the details of the prediction—details unknown to them, remember, because the prediction has been sealed—then you move forward with charges. This really isn't a new thing. Minority Report already did this and showed how even that can be flawed. Edit: And even in Minority Report is relies on the existence of three different precogs and that really emphasizes the flaw there. For precognition to work it means the future has to be changeable and if the future is changeable then precognition is already inherently flawed, ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jun 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
ed: Oops
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:29
|
|
|
Totally agreed with Squizzle about not throwing out the precgonizant baby with the superjudicial bathwater. In a world of superheroes and helicarriers, why not at least send a patrol car to the predicted site of a crime and see what changes? I'd love to see the predictions treated like a total monkey's paw deal. As in, Ulysses predicts a baddie will blow up a watertower or whatever, but it turns out to be one component of a much larger fight or something. Pre-crimes that are more unwieldy or Rube Goldberg'd than can be easily handled.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:31
|
|
|
If you can't see the obvious upside of precogging something like the Raft breakout or a Skrull invasion, even with some fallibility, you must be Tony Stark.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:33
|
|
|
How Tony's anger is directed in this first issue of CW2 doesn't really make sense, to me. I was expecting him to get angry about Captain Marvel doing something like arresting someone for a crime they haven't yet committed. But for his crusade against this to begin out of anger for Rhodey being injured in a way that could have happened in any fight feels forced. I was expecting this conflict to be kicked off by the apprehension of someone a little more sympathetic than Thanos of all people, and not immediately after utilization of this ability resulted in such a smooth victory over what seemed to be a gigantic threat. I was worried about how Civil War II would make Captain Marvel look considering the stated conflict, but so far it looks like I was worried about the wrong hero. The conflict feels artificial. I don't doubt they'll show more worrying uses of this power as this arc continues, but this is a strange way to start it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:If you can't see the obvious upside of precogging something like the Raft breakout or a Skrull invasion, even with some fallibility, you must be Tony Stark. It's pretty goddamn easy to think of three or four major events where trying to precog-stop them before it even happens basically ruin things for everyone and that's assuming 100% perfect infallible precognition in a world with multiple people who have the power to alter reality on a whim or time travel which is pretty unlikely. Edit: Hell, right now, Captain America is doing Bad Things For Hydra probably due to reality manipulation. Short of Gwenpool-style 'precognition' where it involves meta comic knowledge the dude basically would be outed as a secret Hydra agent and ruined and based off what we know even HE thinks he's be guilty in that case. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jun 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:39
|
|
|
 Spider-Women has been loving great.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:50
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Edit: Hell, right now, Captain America is doing Bad Things For Hydra probably due to reality manipulation. Short of Gwenpool-style 'precognition' where it involves meta comic knowledge the dude basically would be outed as a secret Hydra agent and ruined and based off what we know even HE thinks he's be guilty in that case. He's been discredited in the eyes of the public like 4 times now, one more won't do much.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
I.. didn't hate Civil War 2? At least it's a far better event start than AoU, but that's one hell of a low bar.Kingtheninja posted:I'm a little confused there, Tony just doesn't want to rely on future predictions? Or just wants the predictions to not happen in the first place? Well, they did set up the fact that Ulysees's mind is unreadable. He's a brand new player throwing out visions to world-ending events, but who knows just how trustworthy this guy is, if he has some other kind of agenda here. Perhaps stopping his visions could actually be the catalyst for something down the line with a much worse effect than each separate event he's predicting. I'm on Stark's side for being wary around this guy. Now about the actual character deaths, yeah that seemed contrived as hell and seems like a lovely way to actually kick start Tony's actions at the end there. It's pretty neat to see events from the Ultimates feeding directly into CW2 though. By far my favorite marvel book being put out now. hope and vaseline fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jun 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:
I haven't gotten to it in my digital pile yet, but please, please tell me Evil Silk called her Spider-Gwen, because otherwise that's incredibly stupid to have her call herself that. I only barely tolerate the comic itself being called that, I don't need it happening in-story. hope and vaseline posted:I.. didn't hate Civil War 2? At least it's a far better event start than AoU, but that's one hell of a low bar. If a telepath can't verify his predictions, that makes him even worse, because what's to stop him just lying about something and turning around with "uhhh, good job, by killing Squirrel Girl you totally thwarted Annihlus' evil plan!"
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 18:58
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:
Along those lines, Spider-Woman was phenomenal. Rodriguez's art is just so good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:03
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:I haven't gotten to it in my digital pile yet, but please, please tell me Evil Silk called her Spider-Gwen, because otherwise that's incredibly stupid to have her call herself that. I only barely tolerate the comic itself being called that, I don't need it happening in-story. Yes, that's the case.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:05
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:This really isn't a new thing. Minority Report already did this and showed how even that can be flawed. That's a problem in application, not a problem in principle. Good record-keeping, strong and independent auditing, and timely release of records to the public would all do a lot to mitigate the problem of unacknowledged "minority reports". Get a big bank of psychics/run the model through the crimeputer tens of thousands of times. If a murder has, say, a 30% chance of happening, send an officer around to knock on a door or sit around conspicuously, keeping an eye on things. At 50%, idk, get a search warrant or put someone in detention for 24 hours or send some therapists in—something appropriate based on the predictions. At 80%, scale up a bit more, and so on. For smaller crimes, demand stronger probabilities before acting. For disasters (earthquakes, e.g.), evacuate the area or (for bridge collapse, e.g.) try to fix the underlying issue beforehand. The future being changeable doesn't mean that you can't rule certain future events in or out of possibility, or at least ranges of probability. It's probably not going to snow here tomorrow, but it's technically possible. I'm not foolish for planting my garden today, or for putting my winter clothes in storage. Even it does snow tomorrow, I wasn't wrong to act reasonably based on the overwhelming possibly based on the information available, especially given the accuracy of that kind of information in the past.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:08
|
|
|
Tony Stark can survive a series where he is the rear end in a top hat because of the movie good will. And who doesn't enjoy rear end in a top hat Tony Stark?
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:10
|
|
|
Squizzle posted:That's a problem in application, not a problem in principle. Good record-keeping, strong and independent auditing, and timely release of records to the public would all do a lot to mitigate the problem of unacknowledged "minority reports". Get a big bank of psychics/run the model through the crimeputer tens of thousands of times. If a murder has, say, a 30% chance of happening, send an officer around to knock on a door or sit around conspicuously, keeping an eye on things. At 50%, idk, get a search warrant or put someone in detention for 24 hours or send some therapists in—something appropriate based on the predictions. At 80%, scale up a bit more, and so on. For smaller crimes, demand stronger probabilities before acting. For disasters (earthquakes, e.g.), evacuate the area or (for bridge collapse, e.g.) try to fix the underlying issue beforehand. This is now assuming infinite money, multiple reliable sources of information, and no corruption which isn't something Civil War II is suggesting in any case. If you're arguing about the theoretical world of no-corruption perfect-prediction then it becomes arguably a different story but also an entirely meaningless one and it isn't the one either Minority Report or Civil War II (or any of these similar kinds of pre-crime stories) deal with.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:12
|
|
|
Civil War II's issue is more thorny and difficult to figure who's right and wrong, but I would still argue that Dark Reign: Fantastic Four had Reed Richards attempting to solve the same problem from the opposite direction (and was one of the main themes of Hickman's run up to and through Secret Wars) of preventing Civil War/Skrull Invasion/eviction of Hulk before they happened via the creation of the Bridge, and the whole point of that mini was his realization that bad things have to happen sometimes because there's so many unforseen consequences if one takes pre-emptive preventative measures that it's literally impossible to "save everyone".
NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jun 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:16
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:This is now assuming infinite money, multiple reliable sources of information, and no corruption which isn't something Civil War II is suggesting in any case. Real-world police (as an aggregate) are over-armed, racist, and insufficiently accountable, but I still think that having a police force is preferable to libertarian dystopia. I want better accountability, transparency, and culture of policing. Those don't require infinite money. Paying for bodycams and a bunch of SSDs to store footage, instead of MRAPs and stingrays, would I assume/hope be close to budget-neutral. Properly employed, they'd also cut down on corruption (or at least wouldn't enable it). And again, sources of information don't have to be perfect. They have to be testable and generally reliable. Law already works on imperfect information. A system that is at least as accurate, which prevents suffering instead of reacting to it, and which naturally inclines toward rehabilitation instead of punishment—that's an across-the-board win. And Marvel has said over and over that they want the comic to provoke consideration of real-world issues, so I think this conversation is preferable to talking about the stacked deck in the story.  Ulysses being a black box with a shallow record of accuracy makes him an obvious bad basis for anything more important than low-dollar sports betting.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:31
|
|
|
Squizzle posted:Real-world police (as an aggregate) are over-armed, racist, and insufficiently accountable, but I still think that having a police force is preferable to libertarian dystopia. I want better accountability, transparency, and culture of policing. Those don't require infinite money. Paying for bodycams and a bunch of SSDs to store footage, instead of MRAPs and stingrays, would I assume/hope be close to budget-neutral. Properly employed, they'd also cut down on corruption (or at least wouldn't enable it). You're not really arguing for that though. Your're just arguing that it's okay for innocent people to be hurt as long as it's 'accurate enough' that you feel comfortable accusing them of a crime they didn't commit. Again, what you're arguing is "If I feel comfortable enough accusing them, people should be held accountable for crimes they didn't commit and there is literally no way for me to prove they actually would have committed." It's already pretty fuckin' iffy when it comes to more provable things like conspiracies. When you're going "He probably would have murdered her, it was pretty likely really, so let's treat it like he was going to" then you're arguing that 'good enough' is good enough when it comes to ruining someone's life. It gets pretty The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas after a certain point where you're debating just how many innocent people suffering is worth it to justify the happiness of others. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:40
|
|
|
I'll grant this, it makes sense that Carol would be OK with using his predictions, because as a former fighter pilot, she's probably used to missions going off of intelligence that is difficult or impossible to fully verify.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:53
|
|
|
I also imagine Carol is a lot more accepting of the idea of acceptable losses for a variety of reasons, so the idea of it having a failure rate isn't as important to her as it success rate. Tony on the other hand has been part the failure rate AND perpetuating the failure rate before so it's not hard to understand why he'd be against it. (even if he's being a giant cock about it.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 19:06 |
|
|
Civil War II is going to end with the reveal that the whole event was one of Ulysses' predictions and he'll do something so that it never actually happens.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2016 19:56
|
|
