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Linedance posted:Can we get some Calvin pissing on a Chevy/Tesla logo (and maybe getting electrocuted from it) decals made up? Would "I'd rather use a stationary bike to generate electricity for my Tesla than drive a Chevy" fit on a bumper sticker?
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Jun 2, 2016 19:25
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Mange Mite posted:Most of that is due to the finance side. No way you're getting money to start a car company without some gimmick to tie into the tech bubble where they just throw money away, other thsn maybe nationalist politics government money. Sure, they got funded in part due to the reality distortion field poo poo. It's still loving hard to start a car company even with boatloads of cash. silence_kit posted:No, I agree, they are amazing for doing so well as an upstart in the brutal car industry and launching a pretty cool new product which caught the established carmakers by surprise. That doesn't mean that there isn't a reality distortion field surrounding the brand though. 100% agree. Just because you're good at some things doesn't mean you're good at all things.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:29
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I mean it's possible to like Tesla but be self-aware. I knew perfectly well what I was getting into by plunking down $1000 on a car I hadn't even seen yet; I know it's not going to come anywhere close to the estimated arrival date, will probably have some weird first-run problems, and will certainly end up more than $35k especially with the options I want. All of these are acceptable risks for me, however, and I appreciate that Elon shoots for the moon (or Mars  ) because we all know, Elon included, that he and Tesla won't hit a bullseye every or even most times, but overall will do much better and more interesting things being ambitious and falling short than being timid and "reasonable" and falling short of that instead.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:01
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As my good friend Elon always says...
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Jun 2, 2016 20:12
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Ola posted:Even a rabid fanboy like me has to admit that. Their fundamental drivetrain is very reliable, but all the added complexity drags it down. Not to mention all the issues with basic car stuff like making a sunroof or taillight casing waterproof. And OF COURSE the stupid falcon doors on the Model X weren't going to amazingly sense their surroundings perfectly. It's called pushing the envelope, see every top of the line S class (which had rudimentary autopilot years before tesla). We've seen what the established auto industry thinks is "good enough," and I think Tesla is a refreshing change from that. I'd rather have 5% of use instances where the gee whiz gizmo doesn't function exactly as you want it to, rather than lackluster or no features at all.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:43
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The Sicilian posted:It's called pushing the envelope, see every top of the line S class (which had rudimentary autopilot years before tesla). It's not all pushing the envelope. It's adding inexpensive flashy options to make a $75,000 car feel like a $75,000 car. Door handles that (are supposed to) pop out when you need to open the door doesn't cost much to implement, but it makes people think it's fancy. It's understood that because of the technology underneath, the car has to be $75,000, they had to add things people expect in a car of that price range. It's the same reason the focus electric comes standard with sync, navigation, a 9 speaker sound system and dual zone climate control, they're bridging the price gap by adding value with normally high-margin items. Their autopilot stuff is awesome, but every company is moving towards that, with larger ones being hindered by the time it takes to make a fundamental change in extremely large companies. Tesla is smaller and more agile with nothing to lose.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:10
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The Sicilian posted:It's called pushing the envelope, see every top of the line S class (which had rudimentary autopilot years before tesla). I'm following you, but there is some grey area between a barebones Mazda 2 and Jetsons 2.0 with a MTBF measured with a stopwatch. I absolutely wouldn't accept that error rate for something that has to be repaired. If I opened the 5% error rate door once every day of the year in a garage, it would have to go to the shop 19 times pr year for repairs. And the doors are very silly. (fake edit, well said by Powershift) It's just something to make you go whoa for the first moments of ownership, then it's years and years of annoyance. Just like many S class Mercs. Clearly an element of this involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJIAOosI6js
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Jun 2, 2016 21:16
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Powershift posted:It's not all pushing the envelope. It's adding inexpensive flashy options to make a $75,000 car feel like a $75,000 car. Lol, drive a model s or x for a week and get back to me. If the options are so inexpensive then other manufacturers should be tripping over themselves to implement, hype and take preorders a la the model 3. I'm coming from a loaded Macan S and before that an equally loaded first gen Cayenne turbo, the features don't seem gimmicky or poorly implemented to me. Also, I was pleasantly surprised to use the summon feature the other day, truly baling to walk out of a store and have your car pick you up at the entrance.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:18
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The Sicilian posted:Lol, drive a model s or x for a week and get back to me. If the options are so inexpensive then other manufacturers should be tripping over themselves to implement, hype and take preorders a la the model 3. You ought to know then that Porsche is infamous for gouging people on options. And as has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, tesla's driver assists aren't really much more advanced than you get in an A4, Q7, or XC90. Summon and the automatic lane changing are really the only two features those cars don't have.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:25
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If FCA, GM, Toyota etc took preorders on a production run car in the way that Tesla has on the Model 3 they'd be laughed out of the room, and rightly so. It's really hard for me to take Tesla's preorder process seriously, what with their non-GAAP accounting bullshit.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:29
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The Sicilian posted:Lol, drive a model s or x for a week and get back to me. If the options are so inexpensive then other manufacturers should be tripping over themselves to implement, hype and take preorders a la the model 3. Other companies have their own business models they're working to protect, often profitable ones. They can't exist purely off of hype. The giant touchscreen, pop-out door handles and gullwing doors are complete gimmicks, and are unquestionably poorly implemented.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:36
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:If FCA, GM, Toyota etc took preorders on a production run car in the way that Tesla has on the Model 3 they'd be laughed out of the room, and rightly so. If FCA, GM, Toyota etc put a car to market that stirred up the enthusiasm the Model 3 did, they'd be praised. As for the non-GAAP accounting 1) it's very common among all the fast growing companies these days and 2) who cares about their accounting? KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It's really hard for me to take Tesla's preorder process seriously, what with their non-GAAP accounting bullshit. You pay a $1000 refundable deposit on a car. You don't get any shares or options. It's not hard.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:37
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I think we can all just agree that Tesla is the worst and anyone who is excited about EV's is objectively a loving moron.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:38
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:If FCA, GM, Toyota etc took preorders on a production run car in the way that Tesla has on the Model 3 they'd be laughed out of the room, and rightly so. If GM did it, sure, but Ferrari, Porsche, and all the supercar makers all operate on a waiting list with money up front, only get one if you've already got one or know a guy who knows a guy policy. Not so different from a pre-order, it's just that the 3 is considered down market compared to those, and therefore not worthy of such exclusivity pretensions.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:38
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io_burn posted:I think we can all just agree that Tesla is the worst and anyone who is excited about EV's is objectively a loving moron. I'm excited about EVs, but the apple-like tesla zealotry is as pathetic as apple zealotry itself. When you can cross out tesla and write in apple in 90% of statements made about the company and they make complete sense, It's hard to take seriously. If you want a tesla circle jerk, start a tesla hugbox thread. e: Also, i've been watching through some of this guy's videos lately. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=user?mikeatyouttube?videos He put a nissan leaf drivetrain in an MGB. That's pretty drat enticing when you can get an entire running, driving, 30k mile leaf for ~$7000 these days. That's cheaper than most similar gasoline drivetrains if you're looking to re-power something. Powershift fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 21:43
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Linedance posted:If GM did it, sure, but Ferrari, Porsche, and all the supercar makers all operate on a waiting list with money up front, only get one if you've already got one or know a guy who knows a guy policy. Not so different from a pre-order, it's just that the 3 is considered down market compared to those, and therefore not worthy of such exclusivity pretensions. I seem to remember some pretty massive interest (and a $10k-15k dealer added premium) when the ZR1 was announced.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:57
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Linedance posted:If GM did it, sure, but Ferrari, Porsche, and all the supercar makers all operate on a waiting list with money up front, only get one if you've already got one or know a guy who knows a guy policy. Not so different from a pre-order, it's just that the 3 is considered down market compared to those, and therefore not worthy of such exclusivity pretensions. No they don't. For some limited edition cars, yes. By and large anyone can roll up to a dealership and buy a car today. They're not going to turn away money unless it's something losing money as a halo car.
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Jun 3, 2016 00:03
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io_burn posted:I think we can all just agree that Tesla is the worst and anyone who is excited about EV's is objectively a loving moron.
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Jun 3, 2016 00:35
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Bovril Delight posted:No they don't. For some limited edition cars, yes. By and large anyone can roll up to a dealership and buy a car today. They're not going to turn away money unless it's something losing money as a halo car. A year or so into the production run, maybe, but if you want in on the first run of a new model, you're going to need to know somebody and put money down in advance. I know a few guys who were trying to get a Cayman GT4 at launch and it was pretty tightly controlled who was allowed to buy one. And every year Ferrari, Lamborghini etc., come out with a new model, there's articles about how there's a year+ long waiting list for a build slot. Those people on the waiting list put money down up front, and more than likely were approached as current owners to be offered a build slot.
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Jun 3, 2016 00:41
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io_burn posted:I think we can all just agree that Tesla is the worst and anyone who is excited about EV's is objectively a loving moron. Lol, I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt when a few people in this thread didn't bow down and worship at the altar of Elon Musk alongside you guys.
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Jun 3, 2016 00:59
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What? My feelings aren't hurt, I've been laughing along at all the fools spending $1,000 on a car that will never ship. People who think Tesla make good cars are truly as pathetic as the iSheep who think Apple make good phones.
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Jun 3, 2016 01:22
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I guess you showed them, what with the "creative" namecalling and all.
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Jun 3, 2016 02:28
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I am guessing not everyone remembers io_burn preordered a Model 3.
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Jun 3, 2016 06:31
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Ola posted:Even a rabid fanboy like me has to admit that. Their fundamental drivetrain is very reliable, but all the added complexity drags it down. Not to mention all the issues with basic car stuff like making a sunroof or taillight casing waterproof. And OF COURSE the stupid falcon doors on the Model X weren't going to amazingly sense their surroundings perfectly. This is from a page back but just wanted to comment on this: quote:February: because  that's at least four "drive units" and a battery replaced in 30k miles, and it's hardly unique apparently. Lots of other stuff is broken too, though everything so covered by the warranty of course.http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-drive-unit-iv-the-milling.html2
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Jun 3, 2016 12:27
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Ola posted:I am guessing not everyone remembers io_burn preordered a Model 3. Cancelled it already thanks to this thread. Really have no idea what I was thinking.
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Jun 3, 2016 13:10
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io_burn posted:Cancelled it already thanks to this thread. Really have no idea what I was thinking. Woke up one morning in a cold sweat thinking "w-what if I'm a sheeple"?
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Jun 3, 2016 13:26
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mobby_6kl posted:This is from a page back but just wanted to comment on this: For every internet anecdote with problems (I can find many similar ones from the Norwegian forums) there are 40 silent drivers with zero problems. This is the same with every car that gets a bad rep for reliability. Bjørn, the prolific video blogger, got a his battery replaced early on, he now has 130,000 miles on it. The drive units making GBS threads themselves was one batch of problems, that has now been fixed on the production line. I stand by my comment of the fundamental driveline being very reliable, this goes for all EVs. The theory says that it's simpler and go further with less maintenance than ICE drivetrains and billions of real world miles shows this to be true. This doesn't mean that there aren't going to be localized problems and periods with tons of warranty work. But if you've already decided against it, then by all means cherry pick the anecdotes that fit.
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Jun 3, 2016 13:34
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Ola posted:If FCA, GM, Toyota etc put a car to market that stirred up the enthusiasm the Model 3 did, they'd be praised. As for the non-GAAP accounting 1) it's very common among all the fast growing companies these days and 2) who cares about their accounting? It bugs me because it cooks the share price and revenue figures. Standard accounting practice is that the deposits are held in escrow until the unit is shipped to the customer, versus Tesla treating them as revenue. It's clever in that it pulls ahead revenue. No major automaker that accepts advanced deposits treats them as one time revenue, and advanced deposits are only accepted on limited-run cars, not mass produced vehicles.
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Jun 3, 2016 13:46
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Ola posted:For every internet anecdote with problems (I can find many similar ones from the Norwegian forums) there are 40 silent drivers with zero problems. This is the same with every car that gets a bad rep for reliability. Bjørn, the prolific video blogger, got a his battery replaced early on, he now has 130,000 miles on it. The drive units making GBS threads themselves was one batch of problems, that has now been fixed on the production line. I stand by my comment of the fundamental driveline being very reliable, this goes for all EVs. The theory says that it's simpler and go further with less maintenance than ICE drivetrains and billions of real world miles shows this to be true. This doesn't mean that there aren't going to be localized problems and periods with tons of warranty work. But if you've already decided against it, then by all means cherry pick the anecdotes that fit. The plural of anecdote isn't data in either direction but the actual data indicates that the Model S is not that reliable. I don't think that electric cars or Teslas are inherently unreliable. It's very hard to build a reliable car especially if you have never built a car before.
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Jun 3, 2016 13:47
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The plural of anecdote isn't data in either direction but the actual data indicates that the Model S is not that reliable. I don't think that electric cars or Teslas are inherently unreliable. It's very hard to build a reliable car especially if you have never built a car before. Some companies are still trying. Looking at you Mitsubishi.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:51
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Ola posted:For every internet anecdote with problems (I can find many similar ones from the Norwegian forums) there are 40 silent drivers with zero problems. This is the same with every car that gets a bad rep for reliability. Bjørn, the prolific video blogger, got a his battery replaced early on, he now has 130,000 miles on it. The drive units making GBS threads themselves was one batch of problems, that has now been fixed on the production line. I stand by my comment of the fundamental driveline being very reliable, this goes for all EVs. The theory says that it's simpler and go further with less maintenance than ICE drivetrains and billions of real world miles shows this to be true. This doesn't mean that there aren't going to be localized problems and periods with tons of warranty work. But if you've already decided against it, then by all means cherry pick the anecdotes that fit. Sorry but it's well known at this point that lots of Model Ss need replacement motors.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:57
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It bugs me because it cooks the share price and revenue figures. Standard accounting practice is that the deposits are held in escrow until the unit is shipped to the customer, versus Tesla treating them as revenue. It's clever in that it pulls ahead revenue. And those deposits are accepted by dealers, not the OEMs.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:58
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Non-GAAP stuff is endemic to the whole tech economy, which Tesla is identified with more than other automakers. Now, that might not be a good thing if there's a run on deposits after some bad Model 3 news. That would concern me as a major investor, particularly if my other eggs were in equally non-GAAP baskets, but as a potential car buyer and $1000 depositer, I wouldn't care.drgitlin posted:Sorry but it's well known at this point that lots of Model Ss need replacement motors. Best stats I could find:  http://www.teslarati.com/like-need-tesla-drive-unit-replacement/ It isn't very thorough statistics, but it goes to show what people on those forums say and agree; the drive unit problems are pretty much solved. Not so with leaking roofs (on its third revision I think?), stupid doors etc.
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Jun 3, 2016 16:21
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I am pretty sure that Ferrari takes deposits directly on special edition cars since they are frequently handled outside of the dealer network (Dealer still gets a cut though). In answer to why I care about non GAAP, the whole point of GAAP is to be able to directly compare finances of different companies. Of course there are contextualizing factors, but everyone is supposed to report information in the same way. Non-GAAP accounting makes this very difficult and does not allow you to effectively contextualize results. edit: completely agree that as a buyer I probably don't care other than the fact that if the company is really hosed I stand a good chance of losing all or most of that deposit.
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Jun 3, 2016 16:21
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Ola posted:Best stats I could find: All that graph shows me is that the mean time to failure is probably >= 1.5 years? (since the post was made November 2015)
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Jun 3, 2016 16:47
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Listen, I didn't face ten long tours against the goddamn 'bots to come back home and lift baby weights.
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Don't get me wrong, I hate Tesla and think anyone buying an electric car is an idiot, but I'm not sure a forum poll is representative of any kind of actual useful statistics. If the internet has taught us anything, it's that forums are basically just collections of malcontents looking to complain. If nothing is wrong with your car, like the vast majority of cars, gas or electric, out there, you're not going to be like "Hmm let me sit around and making sure no one is dishonoring the vehicle I have online." The vocal minority is a thing, but, again, this doesn't excuse Tesla of being a terrible company run by a maniac with zealot fanboys.
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Jun 3, 2016 17:52
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io_burn posted:"Hmm let me sit around and making sure no one is dishonoring the vehicle I have online." This is my job until I buy a Tesla and can go driving!
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Jun 3, 2016 18:01
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Ola posted:And the doors are very silly. (fake edit, well said by Powershift) It's just something to make you go whoa for the first moments of ownership, then it's years and years of annoyance. Just like many S class Mercs.
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Jun 3, 2016 18:33
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A future software update will allow the model X to extend its doors into wings and fly.
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Jun 3, 2016 18:42
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Collateral Damage posted:A future software update will allow the model X to extend its doors into wings and fly (with an apple pay transaction). They should add a coin slot to get the doors to actually work like a pay toilet.
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Jun 3, 2016 19:20
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