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MiddleOne posted:Haha, there's no way in hell he ran that decision past anyone up the food chain. Didn't he kinda spring the Snowden interview on HBO as well?
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Jun 7, 2016 05:05
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Dante80 posted:How in the world is this possible? I mean, does your insurer not pay for the bills, or are the bills so ridiculously high (for pretty mundane stuff) that he cannot cover them fully? Here's how the $5000 bill for my girlfriend happened:
The $60,000 bill for my mom and sister happened about 10 years ago, before the Affordable Care Act. The ACA has improved improve mental health coverage, so (thankfully) some of this wouldn't happen today. My sister decided that her antidepressants weren't working and stopped taking them. Unfortunately, she didn't realize the antidepressants she was taking had really severe withdrawal symptoms (comparable to heroin withdrawal, from what I've read). After a couple of days she tried to commit suicide and ended up in the hospital. My mom flew down to see her and they had my sister strapped to the hospital bed because she was out of control and a danger to herself and the hospital staff. When my mom arrived, the stress from the situation caused her to have what they initially thought was a heart attack (but turned out to be heart palpitations), so she ended up in a hospital bed as well. After the hospital stay, my sister was put on suicide watch in a great mental health facility. A team of psychologists were monitoring her, and they put her on 6 different medications including a new antidepressant and medication to counteract the withdrawal symptoms of her previous antidepressant. She was in the mental health facility for a several weeks, and once they released her she was heavily medicated for several more weeks. When I talked to her on the phone after she was released, she told me the colors for everything were wrong and that she couldn't really concentrate on anything (both side effects of the new medication). She couldn't work, drive, or take care of herself, so my mom had to stay with her for a couple of months. Anyway, some combination of my mom's hospital visit, my sister's hospital visit, my sister's stay at the mental health facility, and my sister's medication were not covered by insurance. My mom and stepdad ended up sticking $60,000 on credit cards, and then spent the next several years flipping the debt between cards and paying it off. The good news is that my mom and stepdad are the most frugal and financially organized people that I know, and they managed to pay off the debt without losing their house or going bankrupt. My sister is also doing just fine: she is still taking antidepressants, but hasn't had any mental health emergencies since then. She moved from LA to Omaha (far less stress), got a job that she loves, and had my niece (who is awesome and will be 5 in September). The point of these stories is that my girlfriend, my mom, and my sister were all extremely fortunate; they were all insured, they all had financial and moral support from their family, and they all had timely access to the appropriate medical care when they needed it. It's easy to see how someone without any of these things could end up in an inescapable financial hole. Unsurprisingly, medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the United States.
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Jun 7, 2016 06:22
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Air is lava! posted:Yeah, I know about such cases. I am still impressed that there are people who were convinced your healthcare system was perfect the way it was before Obama made everything worse. The Affordable Care Act has improved health care in the United States. It's not perfect and there are still plenty of problems, but before the ACA it was even worse. Air is lava! posted:The concept of bankruptcy caused by healthcare cost is absolutely foreign to me. As I mentioned above, it's depressingly common in the United States. Air is lava! posted:And to be honest I'd be afraid to visit your country without excessive insurance. Sadly that's a legitimate concern for folks visiting the US. Actually I have a funny story that is the exact opposite. My dad -- who is a diehard Republican and is opposed to "socialized medicine", etc -- got incredibly sick on vacation and had to go to a doctor in Germany. After they treated him, they apologized and told him "We're so sorry, since you're not a German citizen we're going to have to charge you". The bill was 20 euros. In the US, a comparable visit to the doctor would probably cost at least $200, so the whole experience was pretty funny to him.
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Jun 7, 2016 06:33
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tarlibone posted:- Emergency care is crazy-expensive. And, many providers associated with it do not join insurance networks becausse there are regulations that require insurers to cover emergency care at the in-network rate; that means they get paid at billed charges instead of a contractual discount. That doctor who you see for 10 minutes will charge your insurance $500 or more. This is true. For example:
The bill was $1800 (which was covered by insurance).
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Jun 7, 2016 06:43
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Maybe a month after I turned 18 and lost my chip insurance I came down with what was suspected to be meningitis. Lacking insurance, went to a local K-clinic, where my bill was waived by signing a note that promised I was a broke rear end with no insurance, and paid for by the city. This is Texas so I was amazed that happened. The doctor tested and didn't find anything in his tests but still referred me to a hospital. There, they quarantined me, ran tests, gave me pain medicine (was in incredible pain that hit every nerve in my body and seemed to be coming from my neck/brain). They even did a spinal tap and all of that and they found nothing, sent me home with painkillers. The spinal tap made things worse, I tried to go back to school and collapsed in first period retching/dryheaving. Ended up in a different hospital, where they still found nothing except a hugely elevated white blood cell count. I spent two weeks there having daily and nightly blood labs. In the end, the hospital caseworker managed to get my bill partially paid for through charity, but when I was finally discharged I had about $9,800 owed between both hospitals. I had no money, my family had no money, so I would get calls about the debt and I would just hang up before they got done reading their consumer rights spiel. I ignored the mail about it, I never took calls about it, but I was never sued. My credit did take a hit, but those debts did fall off recently, and I've been haphazardly checking on them now and then, and nobody tried this wacky poo poo on me. That unpaid debt still hurt, but I can't imagine what's being described in this show. The closest I came was a medical bill for a crown I had done. I paid about half of the cost up front, and unfortunately poo poo happened and I had to wait a couple weeks longer than I should've before I could afford to come back and get my permanent crown put on. But in the interim, my debt HAD been hastily sold off, so when I came in, paid my bill, and had my crown put in I was informed of that. They assured me they would notify the collection agency, but about a month later, I started getting phone calls from a lady who wanted to collect. I finally answered one and politely explained that the debt had been paid off in full to the dentist's office, the lady got really rude and bent out of shape and I just laughed at how retarded it was. She started demanding reciepts and poo poo that I no longer had and no intention of getting. Same lady kept calling over and over, and finally I called the office again and complained about it, and it stopped for good at that point. I guess I'm really lucky Riot Bimbo fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 07:19
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MrPablo posted:The Affordable Care Act has improved health care in the United States. It's not perfect and there are still plenty of problems, but before the ACA it was even worse.
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Jun 7, 2016 08:00
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MrPablo posted:Here's how the $5000 bill for my girlfriend happened: Thanks for sharing, this is remarkable.
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Jun 7, 2016 08:12
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Outlawing pre-existing condition horseshit is good but subsidizing insurance companies is a supremely short term bandaid and we're already seeing the fallout of compelling the poor to purchase insurance they still can't afford to avoid penalization and not including a worthwhile public option makes it basically worthless to me. The best insurance with the lowest premium I've yet paid was as an employment benefit and it is actually threatened by the ACA  . They really want me to still pay out the rear end for personal coverage that's not complete garbage, or twice as much as I was paying for a loving HMO. So if I'm working a poo poo job that doesnt have decent benefits, if I don't purchase effectively worthless coverage, the IRS shits on me. If I actually expect to need to recieve frequent treatment, i am still bankrupted by premiums and having to meet ridiculous deductibles.I am surrounded by way too many people who needed healthcare reform badly and the ACA is mostly a spit in the loving face, toothless legislation.
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Jun 7, 2016 08:21
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Dante80 posted:Thanks for sharing, this is remarkable. There used to be a huge thread about this in D&D which spawned a website full of American healthcare horror stories, but I can't remember what it was called.
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Jun 7, 2016 11:54
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Because I am from Europe, the whole medical insurance and payments is completely incomprehensible to me. Yes, I pay bigger taxes than I would in the US, but my healthcare is free (there used to be ~2USD payment for visiting a doctor, to reduce visits for completely trivial poo poo), and prescription drugs are also either free or with trivial copay. Why would you ever not prefer this over being hosed in the rear end if you get sick, or god forbid, you have some permanent condition? Not to mention free university education, so when I graduate I am not hosed over by massive debt either.
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Jun 7, 2016 12:16
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As a fellow Euro scum I'm with you on that, American health care stories are some of the worst stuff I read on the internet, just the idea of Health Insurance seems alien and terrifying. When I go to the doctor I'm there with a "You just do whatever you feel is required" attitude and no worries about the cost of it all at the end. It'd be like having to pay cash for the Fire Service or Police, it's just a completely hosed prospect.
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Jun 7, 2016 12:36
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Fans posted:
That happens too. Some counties in the US make you pay for the fire service and if you don't pay, they'll show up and watch your house burn but make sure it doesn't spread to your neighbors lot.
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Jun 7, 2016 12:40
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Demiurge4 posted:That happens too. Some counties in the US make you pay for the fire service and if you don't pay, they'll show up and watch your house burn but make sure it doesn't spread to your neighbors lot. 
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Jun 7, 2016 12:40
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Fans posted:When I go to the doctor I'm there with a "You just do whatever you feel is required" attitude and no worries about the cost of it all at the end. I've had friends who have made emergency visits to the dentist and they had to choose between getting a tooth repaired for $$$$ or just getting it yanked out for cheapsies, it loving sucks.
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Jun 7, 2016 12:43
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That was my reaction  http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again At least that article is from 2011 so maybe they fixed it?
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Jun 7, 2016 12:46
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The entire insurance system is broken. Hospital bills are inflated because they have an understanding with insurance companies to reduce their prices when insurance pays for it, and it's basically standard practice for insurance to just sometimes not cover people's expenses completely. I can only imagine what it's like to run a hospital and be sending out these bills to maximize profits. It's nuts. Obamacare was a nice step, but there's still plenty more work that needs to be done.Demiurge4 posted:That was my reaction Oh, nice to hear it's the 19th century. Next you'll be telling me that rival firefighter teams are trying to monopolize fire hydrants and are letting houses burn down while they fight in the streets.
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Jun 7, 2016 13:23
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I'm pretty sure the thread I was talking about was http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3424575 but I don't have archives.
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Jun 7, 2016 13:25
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Demiurge4 posted:That happens too. Some counties in the US make you pay for the fire service and if you don't pay, they'll show up and watch your house burn but make sure it doesn't spread to your neighbors lot. No joke, this is legitimately the worst thing I've ever read on these forums, and I've read a lot 
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Jun 7, 2016 13:32
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The libertarian dream is alive again.
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Jun 7, 2016 13:34
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Xarn posted:Because I am from Europe, the whole medical insurance and payments is completely incomprehensible to me. Yes, I pay bigger taxes than I would in the US, but my healthcare is free (there used to be ~2USD payment for visiting a doctor, to reduce visits for completely trivial poo poo), and prescription drugs are also either free or with trivial copay. Politics. A lot of folks here (myself included) wanted either single payer (the government pays for all health care) or a public option (the government offers a decent baseline plan to everyone as a cost control measure). As the Affordable Care Act was passing through congress, it became clear that it wouldn't get any Republican votes. There was a sitting Democratic president (Obama) and a slim Democratic majority in Congress, which meant the bill could (and eventually did) pass without any votes from Republicans. Unfortunately, the slim Democratic majority allowed the health insurance and prescription drug industries to lobby (that is, throw buckets of money at them) a handful of key Democratic members of the House and Senate to stymie amendments that they were particularly concerned about. In an effort to garner Republican support (which failed) and minimize pushback from the health insurance industry (which arguably failed as well), the Obama administration also introduced a bill was far more conservative than it should have been. In particular:
I could keep going, but I'm sure you get the point. Xarn posted:Not to mention free university education, so when I graduate I am not hosed over by massive debt either. Student loan debt is a huge problem in the US right now. A combination of education cutbacks at the state and federal level, greed, sleazy lending companies, and a change in bankruptcy laws (student loan debt cannot be absolved by declaring bankruptcy) have caused an explosion in the cost of tuition (it is growing much faster than inflation) and student loan debt. Both Democratic presidential candidates have plans to rein in college tuition, but it's hard to see how either of them would get any traction in a Republican-controlled Congress.
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Jun 7, 2016 15:12
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Dante80 posted:Thanks for sharing, this is remarkable. You're welcome. I don't like talking about what happened to my sister because there is a stigma against mental illness. Air is lava! posted:Yeah, The "making worse" was part of the stuff people who hate Obama claim. I guess I could have written that a bit more clearly. Sorry. No harm done.
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Jun 7, 2016 15:30
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MrPablo posted:Student loan debt is a huge problem in the US right now. A combination of education cutbacks at the state and federal level, greed, sleazy lending companies, and a change in bankruptcy laws (student loan debt cannot be absolved by declaring bankruptcy) have caused an explosion in the cost of tuition (it is growing much faster than inflation) and student loan debt. Both Democratic presidential candidates have plans to rein in college tuition, but it's hard to see how either of them would get any traction in a Republican-controlled Congress. They mentioned this on the segment they did a while ago on student loans, but it still makes no sense to me - how can you can debt that isn't absolved by declaring bankruptcy? The whole POINT of bankruptcy is that you can't pay your debts - that any debt can remain after that process seems to undermine the concept.
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Jun 7, 2016 15:55
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The Cheshire Cat posted:They mentioned this on the segment they did a while ago on student loans, but it still makes no sense to me - how can you can debt that isn't absolved by declaring bankruptcy? The whole POINT of bankruptcy is that you can't pay your debts - that any debt can remain after that process seems to undermine the concept. How did they do it? Under the guise of preventing fraud, they changed the law to exclude student loans: quote:BAPCPA amended § 523(a)(8) to broaden the types of educational ("student") loans that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy absent proof of “undue hardship.” The nature of the lender is no longer relevant. Thus, even loans from “for-profit” or “non-governmental” entities are not dischargeable. The bill was actually a handout to banks and credit card companies.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:13
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Xarn posted:Because I am from Europe, the whole medical insurance and payments is completely incomprehensible to me. Yes, I pay bigger taxes than I would in the US, but my healthcare is free (there used to be ~2USD payment for visiting a doctor, to reduce visits for completely trivial poo poo), and prescription drugs are also either free or with trivial copay. We wouldn't, our politicians are just bought and paid for by corporate interests for the most part. So the best thing we could get through, and republicans fought it tooth and nail, was the same garbage 90s health care reform bill THEY proposed back then, written entirely by the for-profit healthcare industry itself. That's the so-called Obamacare. It's naked corporate welfare, but it did unfuck some things I suppose. A large enough number of people are doing ok with the system we have now and because they've been taught that america is the best country on earth they don't question it and the people who get hosed over must have some kind of character flaw such as ot working hard enough. Most americans love the idea of socialism right up until you call it what it is.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:19
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John didn't really get into it because it wasn't really the point, but there are a shitload of federal protections for dealing with debt collectors, in which every violation you could sue for 1,000 dollars which include an additional phone call when you have done a DNC, being threatened, attempting to collect on debt without proven you owe the debt, things like that. Not a lot of education out there on it, but it's there for the taking. MrPablo posted:How did they do it? Under the guise of preventing fraud, they changed the law to exclude student loans: You're not being honest. Lawyers would go to school, rack up all the debt they possibly could then file bankruptcy and discharge 300k in loans. After that just pay in cash for 7 years and you're g2g. It's gross that this still exists.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:56
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Veskit posted:You're not being honest. Lawyers would go to school, rack up all the debt they possibly could then file bankruptcy and discharge 300k in loans. After that just pay in cash for 7 years and you're g2g. Yeah, this is pretty much it. As much as it sucks, if everyone could just go to college for years on loans and then file for bankruptcy after graduation, who would be stupid enough to issue a student loan?
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Jun 7, 2016 17:05
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rujasu posted:Yeah, this is pretty much it. As much as it sucks, if everyone could just go to college for years on loans and then file for bankruptcy after graduation, who would be stupid enough to issue a student loan? If anyone could take a loan on ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD then file for bankruptcy who would be stupid enough to issue a loan for ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:11
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socialsecurity posted:If anyone could take a loan on ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD then file for bankruptcy who would be stupid enough to issue a loan for ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD. You can't keep what the money was loaned to you for it's called collateral. If i loan you 30000 to buy a car and you can't make payments i get a car at the end of it. There is zero collateral in a student loan so there is no incentive to pay
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Jun 7, 2016 17:14
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Veskit posted:John didn't really get into it because it wasn't really the point, but there are a shitload of federal protections for dealing with debt collectors, in which every violation you could sue for 1,000 dollars which include an additional phone call when you have done a DNC, being threatened, attempting to collect on debt without proven you owe the debt, things like that. "There for the taking" is assuming a lot. The people who would need to invoke those protections and sue are the people working 12 hour days likely at two jobs. They have neither the time nor the money to bring suit against these debt collectors. Even if they can find someone to take their case for free, the simple act of taking time off to show up in court is likely beyond what they can afford to do. This is a prime example as to why there needs to be government entities that are specifically tasked with enforcing regulations. Someone working minimum wage shouldn't be required to lawyer up to gain protection or collect punitive damages under the law.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:39
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Veskit posted:You can't keep what the money was loaned to you for it's called collateral. If i loan you 30000 to buy a car and you can't make payments i get a car at the end of it. There is zero collateral in a student loan so there is no incentive to pay This is why the state issues student loans in sane countries. Your future prosperity is always an investment for the state.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:40
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Veskit posted:You're not being honest. Lawyers would go to school, rack up all the debt they possibly could then file bankruptcy and discharge 300k in loans. After that just pay in cash for 7 years and you're g2g. I wasn't attempting to be dishonest or to deny that bankruptcy fraud exists. Incidentally, prior to 2006, the scenario you are describing would have been handled by a bankruptcy judge on a case-by-case basis: quote:Perhaps the most controversial provisions of the bill was the strict means test it established to determine whether a debtor's filing under Chapter 7 of the bankruptcy code would be considered as an "abuse" and therefore subject to dismissal. This decision was previously made by a bankruptcy court judge, who would evaluate the particular circumstances that led to a bankruptcy. Critics of the means test, which is triggered if a debtor makes more than their state's median income, argued that it ignored the many causes of individual bankruptcies, including job loss, family illnesses, and predatory lending, and would force debtors seeking to challenge the test into costly litigation, driving them even further into debt. For example, consider these two scenarios:
Under the pre-2006 bankruptcy laws, a judge would be able to make a distinction between these two scenarios. Under the post-2006 bankruptcy laws, both cases would be subject to a means test, and a judge would have far less leeway in ruling on the non-fraudulent scenario above. As critics of the bill rightly pointed out, the majority of bankruptcies are due to medical bills, not fraud: quote:Opponents of the bill argued that claims of bankruptcy abuse and fraud were wildly overblown, and that the vast majority of bankruptcies were related to medical expenses and job losses. Their arguments were bolstered by an in-depth study by Harvard University medical and legal scholars, which found that more than half of bankruptcies cited medical issues as a contributor to bankruptcy. In other words, the bill did far more to harm people in unfortunate situations with legitimate bankruptcy claims than it did to help banks and credit cards curb bankruptcy fraud.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:53
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rujasu posted:Yeah, this is pretty much it. As much as it sucks, if everyone could just go to college for years on loans and then file for bankruptcy after graduation, who would be stupid enough to issue a student loan? The Federal Government.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:05
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As a European (even from a failed European country like Greece), those concepts about health and education are completely foreign to me. I mean, I really understand that health and education services cost a lot (and I therefore pay more taxes for them), but I never understood the concept of a regular guy with a job and insurance getting hosed in the butt financially simply because he had an accident or a illness. I mean, you had a loving accident/got ill, isn't that enough bad luck already? You have to worry about medical costs too? Btw, I work in the private health sector in my country. We do make money by being a parasite on the public health system, and fill the gaps where the system is too dysfunctional (at a cost of course). But the whole system does not promote the kind of stories we hear here, nor are the costs so big so as to cripple people. Dante80 fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 18:22
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bull3964 posted:"There for the taking" is assuming a lot. you do it in small claims court, a lot of it is DYI. It's lovely but it exists. MiddleOne posted:This is why the state issues student loans in sane countries. Your future prosperity is always an investment for the state. We have a lot of federal loans that can get that big though! The issue still stands where teh state takes a hit for 500k in your scenario because of *reasons*. You're solving the wrong thing and you shouldn't be able to discharge loans. Though you really shouldn't be able to amass more than 50 but... you know how it goes.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:23
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Veskit posted:We have a lot of federal loans that can get that big though! Sorry, I'm not as read up on this as I'd prefer to be. What in particular are you referring to?
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Jun 7, 2016 18:27
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MiddleOne posted:Sorry, I'm not as read up on this as I'd prefer to be. What in particular are you referring to? https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized#how-much
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Jun 7, 2016 18:41
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Burn the US.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:01
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The affordable care act really hosed the working middle class. You're basically forced into taking what lovely insurance your employer offers or paying hundreds of dollars a month on lovely plans that have like 7000 dollar deductibles. If you're poor or just lie, you get decent enough care. Good thing the middle class barely exists now.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:04
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MrPablo posted:You're welcome. I don't like talking about what happened to my sister because there is a stigma against mental illness. There is a stigma, but there shouldn't be; mental illnesses are way more common than many people think. We're in for a revolution though: Donald Trump is trying to prove that mental illness is not a barrier to ascending to the Presidency! 
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Jun 7, 2016 19:13
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Since we're all making GBS threads on Obamacare; it's worth repeating that it's not the Republicans' fault for how limited its scope is. Max Baucus, a Democrat from Montana, was perhaps the one lawmaker most responsible for it not even having a public option. And Obama would later punish him by... making him the U.S. Ambassador to China. I would say my personal experience reflects the strengths and weaknesses of the health car law. I'm not making a lot of money. Before, I was paying a lot for health insurance. Now, I'm not paying anything. (But I would still prefer having a higher income obviously.) But the process of making sure my mother and I had insurance required me to make like twenty phone calls each, either to the insurance company or a health care navigator. I had to help my mom because my English is better than hers. And I hate having to explain to her why Obama's universal plan isn't a universal plan. The burden of defending whatever few merits of the law are left to ordinary people, who often have trouble remembering what it does and doesn't do. I wish we just had a single-payer or "medicare for all" system because it's at least something that people can more easily understand. And gosh, other industrialized countries already did this poo poo already.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:17
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