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One thing I've learned is that nobody can do a FF balance mod right.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:14
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Mr. Fortitude posted:If XII comes to PC, I'd be interested to see if someone makes a gameplay balance mod at some point. Make it so Gambits can take care of the most repetitive tasks, but you can't use them as a crutch and have to engage with the combat. It's not really a gameplay balance issue so much as a gameplay design issue. I said it before but FFXII's combat is very simple. To use a similar example of a game that borrowed the Gambit System, Dragon Age has taunts, AoEs, friendly fire, abilities that syncronize with one another, cooldowns, more strict resource conservation, environmental traps and dangers that can play a major part in combat, ect, ect. The Gambit-alike system there allows you to set up a basic attack pattern but you don't want to automate some things (at least on higher difficulties) because you want to have direct control over a mage so your AI doesn't decide to drop an ice spell on your team or to manually taunt a stronger enemy or so-on. And Dragon Age ain't exactly great shakes but it shows what that system could work for. For the Gambit system to work as something besides automation you'd need a major combat rebalance and maybe a combat system redesign.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:19
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Insurrectionist posted:For my first run, Lulu was definitely starting to fall off by the time I reached Mt. Gagazet (and by that I mean the physical team were doing about the same damage as an -aga spell), as someone who meticulously makes sure that every party-member is tagged in for any fight with meaningful AP awarded. But then she got Magic Booster cactuar and Doublecast at the same time and suddenly she's throwing out ~2x8000 damage every turn which is far more than anyone else could at that point, except Bahamut's overdrive - the other characters can do 9999 on occasion but regular attacks tend to be more around ~6k. Even if you level slower the cactuar should let her keep up until you're far enough into the end-game sidequest stuff to get break damage limit on multiple characters. I relied on Lulu so heavily throughout my first run of FFX that she was probably the most powerful character in my party by the time we reached Mt. Gagazet and singlehandedly helped me break into the Omega Dungeon with doublecast + flare. I also wasn't using any guides until I reached the endgame and so I didn't understand how powerful Mix was or really anything about Rikku at all.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:25
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Mr. Fortitude posted:If XII comes to PC, I'd be interested to see if someone makes a gameplay balance mod at some point. Make it so Gambits can take care of the most repetitive tasks, but you can't use them as a crutch and have to engage with the combat. Like the other poster mentioned. FFXII battle system is built so that the AI can handle any scenario own its own. There's not a lot going on during battles. If they want to make the battles more involved, they need to introduce cool downs, side attacks, rear attacks and skill combos similar to FFXIV for example.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:38
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The really sad thing is you didn't even have to change the gambits much. In the beginning, I set every character to attack whoever the leader attacks and cure anyone that's hurt. I didn't buy another gambit from any shop. I just ran away when I saw flying enemies. It's a game you can play by putting the controller on the ground and just pushing on the control pad with your feet while you're reading a book or forums. This would be lovely enough if the areas were small like most Final Fantasies. But the areas in FFXII are enormous for some reason.
some bust on that guy fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 18:07
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So the problem with FF12 is that it's not enough like an MMO?
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Jun 7, 2016 18:09
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Mega64 posted:So the problem with FF12 is that it's not enough like an MMO? Yes, actually. FF12 already is 3/4ths of the way to MMO-style gameplay and doesn't hit that last 4th the way stuff like Xenoblade does.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:16
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I can't remember did 12 allow you to save gambit setups? Also a list of stuff about World of Final Fantasy from Famitsu on Gematsu:
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Jun 7, 2016 18:20
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No, and it's really frustrating as a result.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:27
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So...it's casual garbage, is what that article is telling us?
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Jun 7, 2016 18:29
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Fister Roboto posted:No, and it's really frustrating as a result. Well here's hoping they fix that for the remaster.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:30
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Wow, I just went into the Creature Creator tutorial in FFX-2, and around halfway through had already given up any hope of ever using this thing without extensive guide referencing. There's spots you get fiends from (just guess what you get from where, player!), four different traps (intuit which ones get you which fiends!), training fiends with items, fiendtales, learning abilities by eating attacks, fiend tournaments... And that's not even getting into the basic problem of what fiends are even worth the trouble of raising. So basically, is this whole thing worth casually messing with (if your aim isn't to catch them all and do 100%)? It would be cool to get some of the nastier mons on my side, or some weird NPCs, but it seems like it would take a whole lot of effort to raise one that's actually worth using.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:30
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Electric Phantasm posted:Well here's hoping they fix that for the remaster. They didn't let you skip cutscenes in the FFX remaster, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:32
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I dunno, maybe I'm just "bad at gambits", but I was usually involved in the gameplay to some degree. I'd manage stealing, or I'd be in control of my team's mage to target specific weaknesses (even in the IZJS version, it takes a while to get enough gambit slots to properly automate a mage well), or I'd be going into the menu to toggle particular gambits on and off, or I'd otherwise be adjusting to fringe cases that fell outside my perfect gambit setup. I'd manually move my characters around to kite enemies and avoid attacks while my ATB charged. Sure, I COULD ignore a lot of those issues and just passively stare at the screen like a glassy-eyed zombie and still win most fights, but why? You're playing the game, so you may as well manually adapt and interact. Also, most random encounters were not "sacks of HP", and die incredibly quickly (assuming you don't venture to optional areas way over your level to pick fights). I'm guessing each individual battle in FFXII is significantly faster than any of the random battles in any of the previous games, if for no other reason than there were no battle transitions, victory and exp screens, etc. It takes very little time to make pretty long chains of enemies. I have to pay attention and interact to get in fights with the enemies I want while avoiding the ones I don't. I don't have to manually confirm every attack, so I can devote some attention to looking for chests and new pathways even while fighting- I don't have to interrupt my exploration to fight trash. The bosses and hunts are specifically designed to change their attack patterns and behavior at different HP thresholds to mess with your gambit setups, and are the real meat of the game's combat- that's why there's a loving million hunts. And if you take them on as soon as they're available or close to, they're hard. If you go into these fights, relying completely on gambits without manual input, you're going to get slaughtered a lot of the time. And that's not necessarily an indication that the fight is impossible and you should come back later- (IZJS has a forced level 1 mode, where you can never level up after all) - it's because they're designed to force you to interact with the fights.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:39
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If the missing quarter of MMO that Xenoblade 1 has that XII doesn't is the idea of adding mountains of side quests where you deliver a bunch of poo poo to hard to find people with obtuse triggers, routines and difficult to find on a map, XII isn't suffering for that. Xenoblade's a great game but some of its ideas are balls.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:44
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No, it's aggro management and positioning management in the battle system.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:49
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drat near every Final Fantasy game can become basically fully automated by high levels. Like, if I replay Final Fantasy VI, I have to intentionally restrain myself in order to not just mash A through every encounter after I have enough time in the World of Ruin to grab a couple of the gamebreaking relics and go to town. The difference with XII is that you don't have to mash any particular button.Schwartzcough posted:The bosses and hunts are specifically designed to change their attack patterns and behavior at different HP thresholds to mess with your gambit setups, and are the real meat of the game's combat- that's why there's a loving million hunts. And if you take them on as soon as they're available or close to, they're hard. If you go into these fights, relying completely on gambits without manual input, you're going to get slaughtered a lot of the time. And that's not necessarily an indication that the fight is impossible and you should come back later- (IZJS has a forced level 1 mode, where you can never level up after all) - it's because they're designed to force you to interact with the fights. This is also true. While it's possible to set up gambits that can get you through almost anything with minimal improvising, it isn't easy, and it's a late-game thing. For the most part I found myself, if nothing else, adjusting gambits for each boss fight and often needing to jump in to manually use a spell or item on the fly. Not always, but often enough that I never felt entirely detached from the process. I'd never call it a complex battle system, but I think it's disingenuous to claim that it's less complex than a lot of the other games in the series. Also if anyone wants to come in here hating on Final Fantasy XII's story I will literally fight you (by which I mean I'll probably argue with you in this here forum thread until everyone tells me to shut up about Ivalice and historicity already).
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Jun 7, 2016 18:51
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Harrow posted:Also if anyone wants to come in here hating on Final Fantasy XII's story I will literally fight you (by which I mean I'll probably argue with you in this here forum thread until everyone tells me to shut up about Ivalice and historicity already). Everything interesting happens offscreen / to people who aren't the main party 
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Jun 7, 2016 18:52
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Harrow posted:Also if anyone wants to come in here hating on Final Fantasy XII's story I will literally fight you (by which I mean I'll probably argue with you in this here forum thread until everyone tells me to shut up about Ivalice and historicity already). The pacing is 100% hosed and it spends far too long to reach any of its interesting points (which as noted above, mostly happen to people who aren't even in the party).
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Jun 7, 2016 18:54
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Amppelix posted:Wow, I just went into the Creature Creator tutorial in FFX-2, and around halfway through had already given up any hope of ever using this thing without extensive guide referencing. There's spots you get fiends from (just guess what you get from where, player!), four different traps (intuit which ones get you which fiends!), training fiends with items, fiendtales, learning abilities by eating attacks, fiend tournaments... You don't have to mess around with them if you don't want to, you can enter fiend tournaments with just the girls (I think only one tournament is impossible with them because of the super boss it has.) and get the prizes that way. But if you're looking for powerful monsters, chocobos are pretty good because they are super fast, I remember tonberry being good, but not why, and in chapter 5 there is a mushroom monster you can capture after opening the bonus dungeon in Bevelle that can learn an attack that will inflicts all four breaks and ignores immunity.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:58
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gambits are cool because it turns battles into a management sim.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:59
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Amppelix posted:Wow, I just went into the Creature Creator tutorial in FFX-2, and around halfway through had already given up any hope of ever using this thing without extensive guide referencing. There's spots you get fiends from (just guess what you get from where, player!), four different traps (intuit which ones get you which fiends!), training fiends with items, fiendtales, learning abilities by eating attacks, fiend tournaments... I got all the trophies without ever touching the creature creator stuff (other than doing one Fiend Tale for a trophy) so you can just use YRP the whole game if you like. I would recommend you mess around with the fiend arena tournament thing though because you can get some really good items out of it (including the Psychic dressphere)
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Jun 7, 2016 19:00
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Harrow posted:drat near every Final Fantasy game can become basically fully automated by high levels. Like, if I replay Final Fantasy VI, I have to intentionally restrain myself in order to not just mash A through every encounter after I have enough time in the World of Ruin to grab a couple of the gamebreaking relics and go to town. The difference with XII is that you don't have to mash any particular button. Yeah, most Final Fantasties have lousy gameplay too, but the thing is they usually have dungeons that are few screens long. FFXII dungeons are a hour or more. That's what makes XII torture. Remember the Sandsea or the Tombs. No other FF has places that awful. CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Everything interesting happens offscreen / to people who aren't the main party Something interesting happens? When was this?
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Jun 7, 2016 19:15
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Electric Phantasm posted:I can't remember did 12 allow you to save gambit setups? I'm highly suspect that any game can claim it's story is over 100 hours long.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:19
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Electric Phantasm posted:
Oh no it's the first game where this is actually a major selling point to me. Crap.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:21
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Josuke Higashikata posted:If the missing quarter of MMO that Xenoblade 1 has that XII doesn't is the idea of adding mountains of side quests where you deliver a bunch of poo poo to hard to find people with obtuse triggers, routines and difficult to find on a map, XII isn't suffering for that. Xenoblade 1 doesn't have obtuse triggers, and only like 1 NPC out of the hundred or w/e large amount has a routine that is more than being in 1 spot for majority of the day/night. The map system isn't really bad either, it only gets weird with Affinity Chart descriptions of NPC locations but even that works on a system that's pretty easy to follow. I'd rather say what Xenoblade has over FF12 is that it had sidequests/an overall world that I could actually give a drat about. Xenoblade has a couple of problems but most of them aren't that big and it still stands way higher over what I got by the end of FF12. Hopefully the IZJS version is more tolerable, but tbh there's not much I really can say I want to go back to in 12 overall.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:21
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Amppelix posted:Wow, I just went into the Creature Creator tutorial in FFX-2, and around halfway through had already given up any hope of ever using this thing without extensive guide referencing. There's spots you get fiends from (just guess what you get from where, player!), four different traps (intuit which ones get you which fiends!), training fiends with items, fiendtales, learning abilities by eating attacks, fiend tournaments... It's not worth training fiends or taking them into the main game because the AI is thick as poo poo and you'll die of old age before it actually kills anything. Fiend tales are cool but even the tiny bit of levelling you have to do to unlock them gets old pretty fast. The real main attraction is the arena - fight anything on demand, and keep all the EXP/AP/items/blue bullets.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:28
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Everything interesting happens offscreen / to people who aren't the main party Yeah, this is why I always say XIII was made as some sort of response to XII. XII's party was just kind of there and, as you noted, all the cool stuff happened to other characters. XIII meanwhile fixated so heavily on its main cast that it hurt any other potentially interesting side characters. Basically, XII relied a lot on a fantastic selection of antagonists and supporting characters while XIII relied entirely on its main party. If you don't like Gabranth or Dr. Cid or Larsa, you probably don't like FFXII. If you hate the FFXIII party, you probably hate FFXIII. I myself think its playable cast is one of the weakest aspects of XII but I friggin' love the Archadian Empire, the lore and all that good stuff. Plus, Balthier and Ashe are pretty cool. I've long said Larsa should have just been a playable character. I hope PC Modders can add this in future.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:29
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And another thing, if World of Final Fantasy is so good, why can't it beat Lightning Rebirth FFXIII? Pro tip: IT CANT
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Jun 7, 2016 19:34
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I know I will probably end up getting XII when it hits Steam but I'm not sure I can face those boring rear end mines again
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Jun 7, 2016 19:41
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Amppelix posted:Wow, I just went into the Creature Creator tutorial in FFX-2, and around halfway through had already given up any hope of ever using this thing without extensive guide referencing. There's spots you get fiends from (just guess what you get from where, player!), four different traps (intuit which ones get you which fiends!), training fiends with items, fiendtales, learning abilities by eating attacks, fiend tournaments... If you're on PC you can reenable the debug flag that let's you actually control the monsters too, so that makes it more fun. It also breaks the gently caress out of the game, but it's still fun . A. Beaverhausen fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 20:15
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I like ffxii and I plan on playing this remake. I don't care who knows it. Last week I was actually considering plugging in my PS2 and playing my original copy.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:23
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I'm having a weird issue regarding AP in my party. Wakka is getting twice as much AP as everyone else. He's using his Celestial weapon which has Double AP so that makes sense. But Tidus, Kimahri and Rikku's weapons also all have Double AP, and they're getting half as much as him and the same amount as the other three who don't have Double AP on their weapons, only some ghetto Overdrive -> AP stuff (sucks to be them). I'm probably missing something obvious but I can't think of what.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:43
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I'm really glad XII is getting a remake, pretty exciting stuff
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Jun 7, 2016 20:48
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Insurrectionist posted:I'm having a weird issue regarding AP in my party. Wakka is getting twice as much AP as everyone else. He's using his Celestial weapon which has Double AP so that makes sense. But Tidus, Kimahri and Rikku's weapons also all have Double AP, and they're getting half as much as him and the same amount as the other three who don't have Double AP on their weapons, only some ghetto Overdrive -> AP stuff (sucks to be them). I'm probably missing something obvious but I can't think of what. Double AP only applies if the character is active. If they're in reserves, it doesn't.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:48
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Ah, I see. That makes sense then.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:58
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FF12 IZJS is good because it has built-in fast-forward and that alone is huge. I probably wouldn't like FF12 as much as I do if you couldn't speed through everything. That plus gambits makes grinding pretty sweet, too. The job system is also pretty fun to mess with. Story's fine enough for me, I'm not going to complain about story much in a series where a man dresses like a woman to infiltrate a pimp's hideout to rescue his friend. Story's more of a "What stupid reason will they bullshit up next to guide me to the next dungeon?" thing anyway (besides FF13 where they just said "gently caress it, here's the next dungeon you don't need a drat reason" half the time).
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Jun 7, 2016 21:05
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I actually really like XII's straight forward plot. "Magic history god goes rogue and manipulates an empire into loving over his buddies. Also, something about revenge."
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Jun 7, 2016 21:18
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Imagine if we had a line of amiibo knockoffs based on the world of final fantasy.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:45
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They better be bobbleheads with those huge fuckin noggins.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:46
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