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SonicRulez posted:I quite liked The Flash. It was better than Batman at least for kicking off a new and interesting storyline. Detective Comics was quite fun too. Nothing beats a story where you bring the team together. I got a smile out of Clayface not having a Bat-Grapple. There's a few characters I'm always going to want to keep up with, a few writers I always want to check out, beyond that they're pretty good about previews nowadays. I read what looks good. You'd have a hard time selling me on a Flash or Green Lantern book though. Goon word of mouth also counts for a lot. I wouldn't have given Grayson or Midnighter a shot otherwise. Of course BSS seems to universally revere Gotham Academy, and that left me cold, so you take the good with the bad.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:34
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Travis343 posted:It didn't help that stuff like Superman and Batman have been on quality rollercoasters for most of the New 52 and WW didn't get lovely until the Finches took over, thirty five issues in. A consistently good thirty-five issue run in this day and age is nothing to sneeze at. To rub salt in the wound, Didio was running around hyped as poo poo about the Finch's taking over the books and it seriously pissed Azzarello off.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:35
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BrianWilly posted:But the change that probably offended former Wonder Woman fans like myself the most was the "revelation" that the Amazons of Themyscira weren't actually enlightened, noble, peace-loving women, but that they secretly went out and raped and killed male sailors in order to give birth to new Amazons, and would have killed any of their sons if kindly god Hephaestus hadn't periodically bartered for them with his weapons. Basically setting up the Amazons as the stereotypical man-hating straw-feminazis that they were originally created to stand against. Oof  . I admit the whole "peace loving noble society" kinda made the Amazons pretty boring to me, but this is an edgy 13 year old's idea of how to make them "better".Diane being a demi-god is kinda lame (I was wondering where that came from, from the 3 issues I read of the Finch run) but yeah that change to the Amazons alone would make me want Azz's series written out/downplayed.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:40
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Yeah people defended that by calling it accurate to the source with no hint of irony.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:43
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Rhyno posted:To rub salt in the wound, Didio was running around hyped as poo poo about the Finch's taking over the books and it seriously pissed Azzarello off. Azz had no editorial restrictions, so of course Dan would prefer a team he'd have more leverage on. New 52 done right. Azz's run had the best dialogue. It really sings.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:51
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I sort of like the idea of differentiating Tim Drake and the concept of Red Robin. Namely, that he really really really loved being Robin, to the point where he's the one Robin who came up to Bruce and applied for the job himself over was chosen for it in some way. And then with the introduction of Damian (one of if not the best new Bat-characters of the past decade and a fantastic Robin in his own right) cutting his tenure short Tim was forced as a matter of course to stop being Robin, but not from any of his own failures, but from the surprisingly mature admission that it was time for him to go. But that sort of forced leaving of the nest before he was ready to go is part of what makes Tim so texturally different as a character. Dick is a character defined by adapting and modernizing, by moving forward and becoming his own man - which is why he's Nightwing, and he lived in New York City for a time, and all that stuff. He's a character who changes and respects his roots but aren't defined by them, and he's become his own hero removed from being a part of the Bat-Family. Jason Todd is defined as a failure - he was literally the red-headed stepchild of the family until New 52 - and centrally defined as a Robin who succumbed to his own worst impulses. He didn't stop being Robin when he was killed by the Joker, he stopped being Robin when he pushed that kid off the balcony. Damian is defined as the Robin who's the heir apparent, the Batman-That-Will-Be. He fails as Robin, but in contrast to Jason it's failure that leads to becoming a better person, rising above what he was genetically engineered to be to become the man he idolizes. So you basically have the three outcomes of any Robin between Dick, Jason, and Damian - the Robin who graduates from being Robin and becomes their own person, the Robin who fails at being Robin, and the Robin who becomes the Batman. This leaves Tim in a weird spot where every potential avenue of his could end up a retread of another Robin. So instead, the idea of Red Robin is that he's this weird arrested development character - I honestly believe Tim would've been perfectly happy being Robin for the rest of his life - who's defined by his desire to be something he can't be any more, and the Red Robin persona is a reaction to that. It's also a direct contrast to Jason Todd, and I think an intentional echo considering they're both Red ____ superheroes. Just like Tim came after Jason and was in large part a reaction to him - Jason Todd done right - Red Robin is Red Hood done right. Or, at least, more right, considering Red Hood is a trash garbage stupid character with a cool costume. If you were to switch Jason Todd and Tim Drake's places - if Tim Drake was beaten to death by Joker with a crowbar and Jason Todd was the one replaced by the arrival of Damian Wayne - Jason wouldn't have reacted the way Tim did to Damian showing up. He would've ranted and raved and thrown a fit about his job being taken from him (because Jason Todd sucks poo poo), and if Tim Drake was revived by a Lazarus Pit I sincerely believe he would've thrown together a Robin costume and started crimefighting again, because it's the right thing to do. Even if Death in the Family starred Tim Drake and Batman and Son phased out Jason Todd Robin, I believe they'd both end up in the same spots as they are right now. In addition, this is why Red Hood is a bad character. Beyond the concept of "Batman who kills" being an immediately repellent one, beyond the fact that everyone who reads comics hates him, and beyond Red Hood being a trash tryhard edgy-for-edginess'-sake character who feels like he fell out of early nineties Marvel, Jason is centrally defined as a failure. He's the Robin who failed, so he's a failure of a hero as a result. And he can never stop failing, he can never grow the gently caress up and stop being a whiny douchebag, because the instant he does he's not Jason Todd anymore. The genetics of his character prevent any growth, and as a result he's stuck repeating the same character beats and stuck in that same pointless, depressive cycle of "Trying to change - almost changes - doesn't actually change" forever and ever and evermore. In contrast, Red Robin, and Tim Drake, is a guy who's grown up - again, he moved aside for Damian with no complaint - that still misses what he once had. Hence the name, Red Robin. I dunno how long they can milk the idea of Red Robin (and I agree that so far the idea's been kind of a mixed bag), but he's in danger of sinking into the same rut that Red Hood has dominated since his inception as a character, where he's Tim Drake, a guy who's stuck at the crossroads with nowhere to go.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:55
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Ended up giving Detective a chance and it wasn't bad as a set up issue. I am always a sucker for villain redemption so I am hoping the Clayface thing sticks though he wouldn't be my first go to for a team member. Sadly I see them setting up Tim and Stephanie as a couple again which kind of sucks.
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Jun 9, 2016 02:06
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I feel like I definitely recall Tim having quite a bit of resent toward Damian when Dick had him move aside. He hated that little fucker the most.
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Jun 9, 2016 02:14
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SonicRulez posted:I feel like I definitely recall Tim having quite a bit of resent toward Damian when Dick had him move aside. He hated that little fucker the most. Well, yeah, Damian nearly killed him. I think the animosity was deserved. Especially considering how much of a crazy shithead Damian was to start.
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Jun 9, 2016 02:16
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Toxxupation posted:Well, yeah, Damian nearly killed him. I think the animosity was deserved. All worth it for this panel 
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Jun 9, 2016 02:29
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Stephanie gets no love Toxx?
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Jun 9, 2016 02:37
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Mr Hootington posted:Stephanie gets no love Toxx? Who?
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Jun 9, 2016 02:42
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SonicRulez posted:I quite liked The Flash. It was better than Batman at least for kicking off a new and interesting storyline. Detective Comics was quite fun too. Nothing beats a story where you bring the team together. I got a smile out of Clayface not having a Bat-Grapple. Buy good comics. Don't buy bad comics. Neither DC nor Marvel has ever really been good at having more than one good book per character, if they can even manage that. Obviously there's exceptions (I like both Iron Man comics right now, for instance), but this is generally not the case.
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Jun 9, 2016 03:06
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Endless Mike posted:Buy good comics. Mr Hootington posted:You either buy everything or make tough choices. I was afraid this would be the answer. Don't you end up missing a bunch if you do this though? Like the story in Batman had nearly 0 to do with the story in Detective Comics. Which is probably for the better since that means they can both fly, but both are canon. Which means eventually I'm gonna read a little bubble that says "Hope you read Batman #14" and then I'm gonna feel left out.
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Jun 9, 2016 03:12
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In regards to Wonder Woman - as someone who loved the Azzarello run, my hope is Rucka won't completely disavow it. I think it makes sense to disavow certain elements and the one Rucka seems most focused on is Diana's origin. Particularly where the Amazons are involved, as we see the contrast between the more classic version and the newer one (which isn't really faulted on Azzarello, cause the Amazons have been treated horribly since around the time Amazons Attack happened.) In my opinion that was the worst change Azzarello instilled. I could swallow down Diana not being made from clay, but the Amazons going from peaceful to violent was really ugly. And honestly, there isn't much story that can be told anymore with Azzarello's concepts. It was an incredibly satisfying epic, but it was severely mangled by the Finches. Hell if anything, we should be more angry at Finches for disgracing what Azzarello left. Hippolyta dies because she melted in the rain. Donna Troy comes back as a murderous Amazon who slaughters an entire camp of men. The Amazons are pretty much even worse than Azzarello ever wrote them as being. Hera turns evil again because she just wants to and Zola loses Zeke because he decides to turn into Zeus to save Wonder Woman's life. Oh and the last panels are Diana languishing how Zeke was the closest thing she will ever have to a son, because she can't have children of her own, which is the most loving cliched thing I have read in a loving comic about Wonder Woman. So yeah, after all that poo poo that happened? I'm fine with Rucka wanting to scrap the poo poo Finches did and let the Azzarello stuff be its own thing. This idea that it's invalid because Greg Rucka says so is kind of silly. All 35 issues of the comic is still there if you want to read it and Azzarello never intended it to be more than a standalone epic. It is what it is.
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Jun 9, 2016 03:21
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SonicRulez posted:How do you guys keep up with all of these books? I have a number of characters I want to keep up with and even that is like 50 million different books. My advice is to follow writers, not characters. That'll cut down books for you. But if you don't give a poo poo about that and just want to read about certain characters make a list. Buy all the books with your favourite character then move on to #2. Buy their books and so on until you hit your dollar limit. At that point you either spend more money, follow fewer characters or learn to appreciate which writer/artist suits you best.
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Jun 9, 2016 03:32
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lotus circle posted:Oh and the last panels are Diana languishing how Zeke was the closest thing she will ever have to a son, because she can't have children of her own, which is the most loving cliched thing I have read in a loving comic about Wonder Woman. .... ...wait, what, even? Why couldn't she have kids of her own? Is she sterile?
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Jun 9, 2016 03:36
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Toxxupation posted:Who? The forth Robin Stephanie Brown aka Spoiler. She was Robin for 3 issues.  SonicRulez posted:I was afraid this would be the answer. Don't you end up missing a bunch if you do this though? Like the story in Batman had nearly 0 to do with the story in Detective Comics. Which is probably for the better since that means they can both fly, but both are canon. Which means eventually I'm gonna read a little bubble that says "Hope you read Batman #14" and then I'm gonna feel left out. Yeah it sucks, but you have to get over it at some point. I enjoy Aquaman. I made the choice not to buy Aquaman: Rebirth today. I might be able to get it later at a discount, but I will survive if I can't read it. Edit: Heathen posted:My advice is to follow writers, not characters. That'll cut down books for you. This is good advice. Unless you favorite character is PreNu52 Booster Gold. Buy everything with him. Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 03:38
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Mr Hootington posted:The forth Robin Stephanie Brown aka Spoiler. She was Robin for 3 issues. Hmm nope, not ringing a bell. Pretty sure any Robin like that would have a loving costume in memorial in the loving Batcave or something are you loving serious that Jason Todd gets one and Stephanie Brown doesn't after being tortured to death and then was left to die out of some hosed up moralistic lesson loving DC god gently caress if that was the case.
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Jun 9, 2016 03:43
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I caught up on New 52 a year ago and this is the first I've heard that Azzarello's Wonder Woman was even controversial. The Fincher's stuff sucked poo poo.
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Jun 9, 2016 03:46
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Detective No. 27 posted:I caught up on New 52 a year ago and this is the first I've heard that Azzarello's Wonder Woman was even controversial. The Fincher's stuff sucked poo poo. A lot of people strongly disliked what he did to the Amazons and found the argument of "it's historical" to be complete bullshit.
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Jun 9, 2016 03:48
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I can see that. I read through his run in a very short time and didn't look to any forums for reaction. Ok, so I did hear that Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman Earth One was a reaction to Azz's Wonder Woman. Edit: Holy crap, my ten year anniversary here at Something Awful was yesterday and I've come full circle as BSS was my original stomping ground.
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Jun 9, 2016 03:50
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Toxxupation posted:Hmm nope, not ringing a bell. Pretty sure any Robin like that would have a loving costume in memorial in the loving Batcave or something are you loving serious that Jason Todd gets one and Stephanie Brown doesn't after being tortured to death and then was left to die out of some hosed up moralistic lesson loving DC god gently caress if that was the case. She does in his secret dreams. Morrison remembers for us all.   Edit: if you notice she is in there with Dick and Tim. No Jason Todd. Batman tries to forget too. Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 03:51
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SonicRulez posted:I was afraid this would be the answer. Don't you end up missing a bunch if you do this though? Like the story in Batman had nearly 0 to do with the story in Detective Comics. Which is probably for the better since that means they can both fly, but both are canon. Which means eventually I'm gonna read a little bubble that says "Hope you read Batman #14" and then I'm gonna feel left out. I realize there's a completionist urge in you. It's something all comics fans have to some extent, I think, but the reality is that your time and money are worth way more than reading comics you don't enjoy just to read every Batman appearance or whatever.
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Jun 9, 2016 03:54
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If you want to read comics you're going to need to make peace with the fact that you will not be able to read everything that "matters" for lack of a better term. And it's a silly notion to even try unless you literally have money/time to throw away. I read a lot of books from several publishers, and the only one I can read all of is Valiant because they only put out two or three a week. Would I like to read more? Sure. But it's just not feasible to do it. You're going to have to pick and choose what/who you like and just rely on hearing second hand what goes on in other books. The alternative for someone that is say a Marvel fan is just subscribe to MU and be perpetually six months behind and you can read virtually everything they put out. That's fine for some people but it leaves you out of the loop if you want to actually discuss it at all. X-O fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 04:04
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I understand a lot of people disliked Azzarello's WW, but discarding all of it as some big Dr. Manhattan-induced lie seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me, as Azzarello's run did have some really neat poo poo. If nothing else, I loved his gods. Old drunk Ares was great. Now disavowing the Finches is fine, as that run was in the bad ideas pile from its inception.
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Jun 9, 2016 04:07
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This is all silly talk anyway because the true Wonder Woman is actually Legend of Wonder Woman and you all just don't know it yet.
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Jun 9, 2016 04:08
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I know no one means it this way and I promise I'm not being a dick here -- I'm getting what I always wanted, so why would I bother? -- but it's just kinda funny how we're getting so many straight-faced, non-sardonic appeals against Greg Rucka indiscriminately trampling over Brian Azzarello's storylines, as if that wasn't also the literal specific thing Azzarello did against Rucka and multiple other writers' work. As if there wasn't also very many great things about twenty years' worth of post-Crisis storylines that maybe shouldn't have been directly countermanded by Azzarello wanting to build a grimmer, darker, more cynical world for the character. I'm just genuinely amused that folks genuinely don't seem to see the irony in this.
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Jun 9, 2016 04:49
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X-O posted:This is all silly talk anyway because the true Wonder Woman is actually Legend of Wonder Woman and you all just don't know it yet.
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Jun 9, 2016 05:01
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BrianWilly posted:I know no one means it this way and I promise I'm not being a dick here -- I'm getting what I always wanted, so why would I bother? -- but it's just kinda funny how we're getting so many straight-faced, non-sardonic appeals against Greg Rucka indiscriminately trampling over Brian Azzarello's storylines, as if that wasn't also the literal specific thing Azzarello did against Rucka and multiple other writers' work. As if there wasn't also very many great things about twenty years' worth of post-Crisis storylines that maybe shouldn't have been directly countermanded by Azzarello wanting to build a grimmer, darker, more cynical world for the character. I'm just genuinely amused that folks genuinely don't seem to see the irony in this. Now try talking about Green Lanterns.
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Jun 9, 2016 05:07
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The problem is Wonder Woman writers keep doing this poo poo all the time. They keep tearing down the mythology of previously established and well regarded runs just to make their own mark on the character and it results in a character that has very few enduring supporting characters and enduring themes and story arcs as a result. Azz at least had the excuse of the New 52 reboot to do his thing but this poo poo has been happening for ages before him with writers were regularly messing with Wonder Woman's origins and throwing each others' established arcs/cast/setup out. And it's annoying because it would be far better to actually build on each others' stories instead or at the very least not throw the entire thing out when you're writing your own stories. Charles Soule's Swamp Thing is probably my favourite run to come out of the New 52 and the only storyline comparable with Azz's Wonder Woman in the New 52 and one of the great things about it is that it builds on a lot of the themes and ideas first established in Snyder's Swamp Thing run. Stuff that Snyder never really followed through on because he got bogged down with the Rot storyline plays out in Soule's run in some really fascinating stories. Soule clearly takes Swamp Thing in his own direction, creates new supporting cast members and for the most part stays out of all the Rot related stuff Snyder went into but he doesn't feel the need to throw out all the good setup, worldbuilding and characterisation that Snyder did for the character or retcon the entire thing as a massive lie. And he also doesn't do that in a lovely decompressed issue that endlessly parrots "The lies! The story changes! Where is the Truth?" 40 times. Wonder Woman seems to be one of the main characters that suffers from this and it's frustrating because the character could be far more interesting by building on previously well regarded runs instead of just constantly starting from scratch.
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Jun 9, 2016 05:30
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I finally caught up with the Darkseid War finale and loved every goofily serious page of it. Even though I've read Rebirth: Green Lanterns, watching Jessica Cruz earn her Green Lantern ring got me legitimately hyped. When JL #50 came out I saw complaints about it supposedly falling apart due to "using a baby as a gun" but it wasn't as simple as that (it's a baby Yoshi that grows up into Darkseid after it eats enough God-berries), and there were a dozen other things going on in the story anyway. Comixology's guided view did Fabok's art a lot of favors, sweeping from one colorful clash to the next, or scrolling across dialog before zooming out to reveal a wide-open layout. I really hope Darkseid War gets an all-in-one OSHC of some sort. Enough hype has passed through BSS over The Legend of Wonder Woman that I've started on it and... yeah, this is already one of the best WW stories, if only for actually depicting an Amazon society via its structure and potential, such as the education system focused on twelve gods and their related occupations. Life among the Amazons. Gorgeous artwork. The print collection won't come out until the end of this year, so scoop up the digital chapters now! If Rucka's mirror crash scene is any indication, Wonder Woman's going to get over Superman in a jiffy. Ares should take an arrow to the heart from Cupid. I know some of the Rebirth #1 issues are kinda dragging their feet setting up new status quos (looking at you Flash/Aquaman/Superman/Batman), but still, it feels good for DC to generate some hype again. How soon before DC trips over their own dicks?
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Jun 9, 2016 06:11
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The Flash comic was nice but it mostly just seemed like a way to justify Wally not being around in The Flash despite making his triumphant return after the recap from Barry's perspective.
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Jun 9, 2016 06:52
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This whole who is the Joker storyline is one long cocktease.
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Jun 9, 2016 06:57
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lotus circle posted:I would say LoWW's writer should do the mainline book, but then she wouldn't get even half as much creative freedom to tell her Golden Age inspired vision. Man the writing is so great on that one but as good as it is the art is that much better. It may be favorite art in a book period these days. I'm so glad it's getting a second volume. I have no idea how such a talented writer/artist came seemingly out of nowhere but Renae De Liz has a bright future in comics ahead of her.
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Jun 9, 2016 07:03
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Hollismason posted:This whole who is the Joker storyline is one long cocktease. Well sure. Like everything else in DCUR, it's absolutely not going to come to a head for at least a year. Did anyone else note that both of the high numbered comics had evil multi-screen observers?
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Jun 9, 2016 07:15
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Teenage Fansub posted:Well sure. They're being watched.
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Jun 9, 2016 07:38
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I doubt Detective's villain is a Watchman rather than just having that same tired bad guy trope that they didn't think to not include. I would enjoy sites trying to pick it apart, speculating it'll be Night Owl or something. e: Preview of the JRJR DK3 spin off, and his art looks great. Good on the colourist. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/06/08/when-frank-miller-and-alan-moore-argued-about-the-joker/ 
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Jun 9, 2016 07:49
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Teenage Fansub posted:I doubt Detective's villain is a Watchman rather than just having that same tired bad guy trope that they didn't think to not include. Look at that army, it's clearly the Arkham Knight, a totally original character 
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Jun 9, 2016 07:52
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drat JRjr's art actually looks really good here, guess that makes up for the 4 month delay. On top of the good colourist I also think it looks good because it looks like it's just pencils instead of the inking that seems to make it a lot worse. Last Crusade is the most interesting DK3 project to me. Jason Todd's death needs a far better story than the incredibly stupid one that was Death in the Family.
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Jun 9, 2016 07:57
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