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God drat the new resistance system is terrible. It sucks and makes enemies bullet-sponges for no good reason. I haven't seen one positive thing about it on 4chan nor Reddit. Even the TWI forums aren't saying anything about it, which is never a good sign because they'll suck up to anything.
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Jun 10, 2016 00:27
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closeted republican posted:God drat the new resistance system is terrible. It sucks and makes enemies bullet-sponges for no good reason. I haven't seen one positive thing about it on 4chan nor Reddit. Even the TWI forums aren't saying anything about it, which is never a good sign because they'll suck up to anything. I was trying to avoid posting until playing more, but this is my conclusion as well. The new resistance system feels like an across-the-board nerf. You might gain a little bit on an enemy or two as a specific class, but you lose a whole lot more to all other enemy types. Sirens taking 3 M14 headshots (1-man Suicidal), for example, does not feel good at all.
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Jun 10, 2016 00:32
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I really hope they walk back the nerfs on the demo weapons. The explosion radius on the C-4 is a little less than a grenade now, and the RPG's splash is sliiightly more than where the old grenade pistol was. Why on earth would they do that?
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Jun 10, 2016 00:33
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Gorgeous Gorge posted:I really hope they walk back the nerfs on the demo weapons. The explosion radius on the C-4 is a little less than a grenade now, and the RPG's splash is sliiightly more than where the old grenade pistol was. Why on earth would they do that? Tripwire is monstrously bad at balancing, and they seem to be terrified that people might have fun.
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Jun 10, 2016 00:37
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Wacky Resistances sounds good in theory for "Features" but in practice it's just an extra layer of awkwardness for both the players and devs to fumble through. Especially in a cooperative game. "But what about the PvP mode"  If you hate guns so much just nerf the guns or buff the enemies instead of making things worse and more confusing than an actual nerf, but calling it a feature and pointing to the enemies they are allowed to deal full damage to as "No, see, they work GREAT! in incredibly specific instances that ignore the problems you just brought up"
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Jun 10, 2016 00:41
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If TWI wants to balance VS so badly, they should make separate Vs copies of the weapons and go from there, like other games do, instead of loving the entire game over for the sake of a lovely PvP mode nobody plays.
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Jun 10, 2016 00:46
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Oh, I also want to point out that Rack 'Em Up (Sharp skill) is very bad. +5% damage/headshot seems nice, yeah? You might even be willing to accept that you lose a single stack for non-headshots. But once you get to around ~6 stacks, a miss halves the number of stacks you've accumulated. So don't bother, unless you're really, really good at aiming.
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Jun 10, 2016 00:50
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closeted republican posted:If TWI wants to balance VS so badly, they should make separate Vs copies of the weapons and go from there, like other games do, instead of loving the entire game over for the sake of a lovely PvP mode nobody plays. Long dead MMO City Of Heroes had seperate rules/statistics for PvP stuff, yeah. Devs often hate it because that means they have to deal with two seperate sets if statistics to work on though  and as seen here it can be a wild enough time trying to get just the one more slanted for PvE to not be driving an amigo scooter down an escalator.
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Jun 10, 2016 00:50
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What drives me up the loving wall is that the stopping power of the Deagle is non-existant now. I used to roll it as a Demo secondary to shoot stuff that gets to close like loving GOREFASTS, but now it doesn't stop them in their tracks. It was already pretty hard to shoot off their head, and remember: IT DOES loving NOTHING unless you have an open field behind your back, because you still need to magdump their body so that the magical tracking bullshit they have doesn't end up with them doing more damage to you if they still had the head on.
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Jun 10, 2016 00:50
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Oh yeah the Demo can somehow still kick rear end, blowing up doors as a basic feature is pretty neat, as it does a lot of stun damage, enough to fumble a Scrake. Moving the Grenade Launcher to the T2 was a great choice, now you get a good weapon faster, but the reistances mean "take the extra 5 ammo for all the Demo guns", cause I ended up going dry a lot more, and I was aiming for crowds. But it does mean I can rival the Firebug in the bodycount.
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Jun 10, 2016 00:54
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The thing about resistances is that if you need to point your patch notes towards a wiki to adequately explain a system for players then you have fundamentally failed basic principles of gameplay discoverability. This is like when MMORPGs had "arcane resistance" or "fire resistance" qualities on bosses rendering entire classes useless, only instead of a vaguely obvious fire guy being resistant to fire you have a small karate chick being resistant to shotguns because your garbage rock, paper, scissors balancing system said so 
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Jun 10, 2016 01:07
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Yeah, I can see why TWI introduced this as a preview beta to test the waters rather than push this update to the main build.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:16
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Propaganda Hour posted:The thing about resistances is that if you need to point your patch notes towards a wiki to adequately explain a system for players then you have fundamentally failed basic principles of gameplay discoverability. This is like when MMORPGs had "arcane resistance" or "fire resistance" qualities on bosses rendering entire classes useless, only instead of a vaguely obvious fire guy being resistant to fire you have a small karate chick being resistant to shotguns because your garbage rock, paper, scissors balancing system said so Hey man, I've shot a naked 5'/152cm tall woman with a shotgun before, and she took it like a champ and kept on ticking like it was no thing. TWI really added some realism with this update.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:18
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Propaganda Hour posted:The thing about resistances is that if you need to point your patch notes towards a wiki to adequately explain a system for players then you have fundamentally failed basic principles of gameplay discoverability. This is like when MMORPGs had "arcane resistance" or "fire resistance" qualities on bosses rendering entire classes useless, only instead of a vaguely obvious fire guy being resistant to fire you have a small karate chick being resistant to shotguns because your garbage rock, paper, scissors balancing system said so The wiki is also not updated with useful information.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:28
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Propaganda Hour posted:The thing about resistances is that if you need to point your patch notes towards a wiki to adequately explain a system for players then you have fundamentally failed basic principles of gameplay discoverability. absolutely. The resistance system is wholly undiscoverable ingame except for "why does this enemy take 6 shots to kill when it used to take 1" and in my experience now - several games from normal to HOE - it's overnerfed almost every weapon against every enemy type. I have no problems with microwave having a bonus against a siren but if I'm putting M14 shots into a siren's head, where there is none, it's a huge disconnect. Resistances absolutely need to be dialed down. For all the positive changes here - and there are many - this is a mistake on almost every level. The system is far too complicated to remember, far too obscure for anyone to discover ingame, and far too harsh to be reasonable for the stated goal of "any class can fight any enemy." Psion fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 01:31
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Propaganda Hour posted:The thing about resistances is that if you need to point your patch notes towards a wiki to adequately explain a system for players then you have fundamentally failed basic principles of gameplay discoverability. This was my initial thought as well. I remember thinking that in practice this system wasn't too bad but then I remembered that I'd jumped into a normal-difficulty game since I wanted to dick around with a level 0 sharpshooter. Normal difficulty and I was going "gosh some of these guys are pretty tanky"  These balance changes aren't really because of the pvp mode, are they? That seems really foolish.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:37
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Geight posted:These balance changes aren't really because of the pvp mode, are they? That seems really foolish. Knowing Tripwire, that was probably the intention of resistances.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:39
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Okay so I'd be lying if I said I've kept up with the game at all, but is the PVP mode popular enough that it's worth mucking up the original KF experience, which was so solid at least partially because of its simplicity?
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Jun 10, 2016 01:51
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Geight posted:Okay so I'd be lying if I said I've kept up with the game at all, but is the PVP mode popular enough that it's worth mucking up the original KF experience, which was so solid at least partially because of its simplicity? PvP is dead in the water and has been since two weeks after it came out, but TWI is hellbent on making people enjoy it, whether they want to or not.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:55
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Might be a basic question, but do the non-perk specific weapons actually give you any kind of xp to your specified class? For example, the lever action rifle.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:07
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Severed posted:Might be a basic question, but do the non-perk specific weapons actually give you any kind of xp to your specified class? For example, the lever action rifle. No.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:08
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So no xp whatsoever? Edit - I do not enjoy how using off-perk weapons gains XP against their base class instead of the class that you are currently playing. Was KF1 like that? I can't seem to remember. Severed fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 02:08
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Severed posted:So no xp whatsoever? Nope.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:13
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Seriously, Questioner, I can't be more clear about this: fire all your people doing balance. I know I do a lot of bitching, but the current balance is truly terrible. *throws half-stick of dynamite at husk* *Husk survives, so does Clot next to it* *Nukes Scrake with C4* *Crawlers wander through poison, seemingly unharmed, while the Commando comments on how much health the Scrake has left* It's also neat how we got extra ammo last patch. Too bad we need even more now that Zeds absorb an absurd amount of damage.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:14
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More news: Nuke (or whatever they changed it to) is pointless now. Near as we can tell it induces a "status effect" of panic and doesn't do damage, lmao. RPG blast radius is nonexistent. The class changes and resistances mean that every class we've tried so far is worse. Significantly worse. like what the gently caress. Did nobody at Tripwire play an RPG ever? Nobody loving casts status effect spells, you kill things. Now all my guns do 1602784378 types of status effects except actually killing enemies. What's the point? An obscure, overcomplicated mechanical system which will be an utter nightmare to balance from a studio with less than stellar past history at balancing. yes hm I'll cast sleep on this enemy or I could cast KILLDEATH. The map ends when everything is dead, so, killing stuff sounds silly. I'll cast sleep! LuciferMorningstar posted:Seriously, Questioner, I can't be more clear about this: fire all your people doing balance. I know I do a lot of bitching, but the current balance is truly terrible. Please. Seriously, this perk rebalance/resistance thing is a disaster. This is a cooperative game. Let us have fun with our friends. Psion fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 02:14
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Fire bests Grass, Grass beats Water, Water beats Fire. There's nothing hard to understand about this at all!
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Jun 10, 2016 02:16
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:Fire bests Grass, Grass beats Water, Water beats Fire. There's nothing hard to understand about this at all! Picture straight from the official wiki:  So easy to understand and intuitive. 
closeted republican fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 02:20
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closeted republican posted:Picture straight from the official wiki: So if I understand correctly, Firebugs can ONLY kill sirens if they got the Microwave Gun? And also Supports can sorta kill a Siren but who plays Support.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:34
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widespread posted:So if I understand correctly, Firebugs can ONLY kill sirens if they got the Microwave Gun? And also Supports can sorta kill a Siren but who plays Support. If you think that's bad, read the updated enemy resistances on the info spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GDpg2mN1l_86U_RaDug0glFx8cZCuErwxZLiBKl9SyY/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=2076405357 Sirens take x0.3 of fire damage and x0.6 of pistol damage, so your only hope for killing one as a Firebug is the Microwave Gun, as they take x0.8 of microwave damage. Great decision! closeted republican fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 02:37
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RIP Killing Floor. You were fun while you lasted.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:39
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Seriously, Questioner, I can't be more clear about this: fire all your people doing balance. Thirding this. I don't want to sound like the typical entitled gamer, Questioner, but holy poo poo this resistance thing is a terrible loving idea.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:42
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Oh hey, the KF2 thread is blowing up, I wonder if they corrected the game's unforgivably lovely balance ye-- oh
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Jun 10, 2016 02:45
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Here are some other gems from the info spreadsheet: *Stalkers take a whopping x0.25 of a shotgun pellet's damage. They can also walk off explosives with their x0.3 resistance to them. *Husks are resistant to x0.5 of damage from an assault rifle shot and x0.4 damage from a pistol shot. *Sirens take x0.45 of damage from an explosive, when they were previously weak to it before. *Bloats take between x0.2 to x0.3 damage from all ballistic damage types, except for the 9mm pistol, which they take only x0.6 of for some reason.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:46
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those numbers just hurt me inside I like the player icons being visible through walls, but you know what'd be cooler? If they color-coded or went from full to empty looking based on player health!
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Jun 10, 2016 02:58
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Jun 10, 2016 03:02
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I don't know what's going on here
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Jun 10, 2016 03:06
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Geight posted:I don't know what's going on here Missing one headshot with Sharpshooter's Rack 'em Up skill IIRC.
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Jun 10, 2016 03:07
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closeted republican posted:Missing one headshot with Sharpshooter's Rack 'em Up skill IIRC. Correct.
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Jun 10, 2016 03:09
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you know i used to like blasting this song to KF2 because i felt it was very appropriate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gre-o_tsumk i think it is hilarious that now the zeds are the ones singing this
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Jun 10, 2016 03:33
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Sorry to hear you guys don't like the revised resist system, but I'm going to go ahead and deny any requests for heads on sticks. I've been play testing A LOT over the last couple of weeks and had some of the most intense and fun experiences playing KF2 in those final playtests once the system really started to take shape and I'm not keen on firing anyone the company because they had fun during a play test. Personally, I like the idea of there being some strategy to team composition, skill selection and weapon selection and we've gotten a lot of feedback over the last year that all the perks are too similar, the skill choices are always one-sided and that the tactics and combos aren't as complex as in KF1. The concept of certain perks being ideal to deal with certain threats and team work being the key to success sounds like classic co-op or team based shooter design I think it's a good goal. Medic+Berserker being the ultimate combo or a single perk with a certain loadout being being good at tackling every threat in the game isn't exactly thrilling game play and we're trying to improve that. I think the system pairs really well with the new cumulative incap system and we'll just have to see what adjustments need to be made to keep the game fun and challenging as you go up through the difficulties. Save the serious resistances that require careful team coordination and perk selection to HoE and letting normal difficulty be an experience where 6 berserkers can run around playing whack-a-mole? Might be the solution. Add more weaknesses so each perk only has one nemesis ZED (like the Husk vs Firebug)? Maybe be that. We'll have to keep gathering feedback and see. If the community decides they want head popping simulator then I'm sure they'll make that desire known.
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Jun 10, 2016 04:06
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