botany posted:

cars are not made for killing, hope this helps

Snowman Crossing posted:

You aren't the one pulling the trigger, though, so I doubt it's really all that hard to sleep at night. Have you ever sold a car to anybody? Would you feel responsible if he used it for drunk driving?

quote:

Each of the five dealers, the court documents show, had an average of more than one gun recovered in crime every day of the year in 2005. By contrast, 86 percent of gun dealers in America have no crime guns traced to their stores in a typical year.
Just 1.2 percent of gun dealers supply 57 percent of all crime guns recovered across the nation.

The dealers named: Badger Outdoors, West Milwaukee, Wisconsin - 537 Crime Guns; Trader Sports, San Leandro, California - 447 Crime Guns (which is the subject of the government's case); Elliot's Small Arms, Jefferson, Louisiana - 442 Crime Guns; Don's Guns and Galleries, Inc., Indianapolis, Indiana - 431 Crime Guns and Hyatt Coin & Gun Shop, Inc., Charlotte, North Carolina - 405 Crime Guns. A chart of these dealers can be found at bradycenter.org.

Chokes McGee posted:

Well unless you're weird and don't think Moses is a thing then I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be killing people either

SpaceCadetBob posted:

CBSN was reading the tweet on air and it was a bit convoluted. To me it sounded more like they were claiming him as a proud ISIS fighter, as opposed to claiming that there was central planning specifically for this attack. So this could still be a case of inspired as opposed to directed.

OTOH CBSN also stated that there are records of the shooter traveling internationally so I guess we will just have to wait for the next news dump.

botany posted:

homophobic straight man murders gay people; country freaks out about islam

Popular Thug Drink posted:

like it's pretty transparent you don't have an actual argument here you're just looking to construct a framework that allows you to feel intellectually justified in bitching about liberals and muslims but really you're just dropping a more eloquent version of th esame stuff we hear from jim bob trumpvoter and it's so obvious bro

Sinteres posted:

Read this and tell me it isn't loving absurd that the only mention of Islam is to absolve it while saying it's actually Republicans, who by promoting homophobia are responsible for this. I agree that the homophobic culture in retreat many Republicans still contribute to provides room for more virulent homophobia to continue to exist beneath the surface, but pretending this guy who wasn't even a Republican was inspired by Republican hate more than by either ISIS specifically or Islam in general (which of course are very different things) is completely ridiculous.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-committed-lgbt-mass-murder-we-must-confront-that.html


I'm liberal and would never vote for Trump or support a ban on Muslims. I do think some degree of honesty about the challenges in integrating Islam into our secular and liberal society is necessary if we want to minimize the inevitable friction though. Taking it on faith that Islam is good because it has to be to make us feel good about ourselves isn't a solution.

Sinteres posted:

I'm liberal and would never vote for Trump or support a ban on Muslims. I do think some degree of honesty about the challenges in integrating Islam into our secular and liberal society is necessary if we want to minimize the inevitable friction though. Taking it on faith that Islam is good because it has to be to make us feel good about ourselves isn't a solution.

Dead Cosmonaut posted:

If ISIS are a bunch of Islamists then I'm the loving pope

Bip Roberts posted:

Wait what?

Tatum Girlparts posted:

Who do you think has more influence over an American citizen, the dominant and prevailing American culture for the last, oh, all of our history until like four years ago, or a group in the middle east he's had no contact with other than to do the equivalent of shouting their name before doing an attack targeting a group he already seemed to have anger to?

Popular Thug Drink posted:

given that the overwhelming majority of muslims in america don't murder anyone or commit crimes i think you're trying to force a problem where one doesn't exist, and you're accusing others of being dishonest as a smokescreen to hide your bigotry behind the cliche "i'm just asking questions"

it's ok to be a bigot, i just want some degree of honesty about the challenges in accepting your anti-religious ideals in a tolerant multicultural democracy if we want to avoid your inevitable disgusting opinions. taking it on faith that your opinion is well considered because you manage to not call anyone towelheads isn't a solution

Tatum Girlparts posted:

Who do you think has more influence over an American citizen, the dominant and prevailing American culture for the last, oh, all of our history until like four years ago, or a group in the middle east he's had no contact with other than to do the equivalent of shouting their name before doing an attack targeting a group he already seemed to have anger to?

aBagorn posted:

I believe he's making the claim that with their corrupted interpretation of the Koran, ISIL is no more Islamist than he is the pope.

Bip Roberts posted:

Wait what?

The Glumslinger posted:

I apologize for all men

Sinteres posted:

I can't help wondering if you're this protective of Christians when their religion is disparaged for being homophobic. Do you comfortably explain to the gay people you know (who some Christian leaders seek to oppress) that Christianity is in fact good and anyone who has an issue with any of its teachings is a bigot? Do you also tell women who complain about misogyny that not all men are like that? Handwaving away the problems that actually existing Islam has with gay people because you get to feel morally superior to anyone who points it out is a choice to ignore the threat to the gay community. Maybe I'll feel like being lectured to about it on the day when a pro-gay rights extremist massacres a bunch of peaceful Muslims.

Dead Cosmonaut posted:

lol if it turns out Snowden is right and that the intelligence agencies can't stop this poo poo because they got lost in the scope of what they are doing

Pellisworth posted:

I'm glad the shooter was at least nominally Muslim. That way everyone can point the finger at Islam instead of recognizing that both Orlando and LA had terror/hate attacks organized to target their Pride celebrations today (thankfully the LA guy was caught first).

Popular Thug Drink posted:

i think you're confused, you think i'm being defensive of some group when in reality i am attacking you for trying to mask bigotry with politeness and a semi-reasonable tone. you may have even fooled yourself, which is why you are not accurately percieving my argument because you don't see why anyone could object to your level headed, rational suspicion of religion in general and islam in particular. i'm not fooled though, i'm just marveling at the multiple layers of self-misdirection we seem to be uncovering here

you are right about one thing though, i do feel morally superior to people who use terror attacks as an excuse to vent anti-religious nonsense. you really should have the courage to make this argument all the time and not just when there's a large mob of angry and upset people for you to hide in

McAlister posted:

In all seriousness, treating empathy as a valuable characteristic in all children instead of just in girls would be a valuable social change.

Boys are derided for displays of empathy and are conditioned to accept a positive obligation to protect the kin group. This training had a purpose in a world with ample real threats but is maladaptive today. Both because of our general peacefulness and because of the much greater lethality of our weaponry.

Basically, if we are going to be so armed we should put a lot more effort into teaching politeness.

Sinteres posted:

Read this and tell me it isn't loving absurd that the only mention of Islam is to absolve it while saying it's actually Republicans through their promotion of homophobia who are responsible for this. I agree that the homophobic culture in retreat many Republicans still contribute to provides room for more virulent homophobia to continue to exist beneath the surface, but pretending this guy who wasn't even a Republican was inspired by Republican hate more than by either ISIS specifically or Islam in general (which of course are very different things) is completely ridiculous.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-committed-lgbt-mass-murder-we-must-confront-that.html


I'm liberal and would never vote for Trump or support a ban on Muslims. I do think some degree of honesty about the challenges in integrating Islam into our secular and liberal society is necessary if we want to minimize the inevitable friction though. Just as we've faced challenges integrating fundamentalist Christians! Taking it on faith that Islam is good because it has to be to make us feel good about ourselves isn't a solution though.

Trabisnikof posted:

Hey now, all we know was that he wanted to go to the pride parade with a bunch of explosives and weapons. People deserve a fair treatment and are innocent until proven guilty. Plus I'm sure he made some mistakes that indicate he was crazy or not really going to do it.

Has it even been declared a terror or hate attack in LA or are you falsely accusing another brave 2a American? Why do liberals always pick the side of police when white men are involved?

Electric Bugaloo posted:

Alternatively, the NYT said that the club bills itself as "Orlando's Latin Hotspot" and that it hosts "Upscale Latin Saturdays" so there's a possibility that this could end up looking very bad for the Trump set once all the facts come out.

I'm not gonna speculate about a tragedy that is actively being investigated, but 'mass shooting in Latin night club in central Florida with possible hallmarks of planned terrorism and improvised bombs' sounds way likelier to have been committed by a white nationalist than an Islamic extremist.

cravius posted:

Nice. It's sick when everyone's hoping a shooting "looks bad" for their opponents.

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

Does "purchased directly" mean "legally"?

MC Nietzche posted:

When tragedies are rooted in politics they tend to get politicized.

MC Nietzche posted:

When tragedies are rooted in politics they tend to get politicized.

MC Nietzche posted:

When tragedies are rooted in politics they tend to get politicized.

Dead Cosmonaut posted:

I don't think you have to be all that political to mow down a bunch of people. The media is just looking for reasons that simply aren't there. Otherwise everyone is a killer instead of "oh hey this guy was crazy that explains it".

Fojar38 posted:

Well, for most of the primary everyone was saying "Trump could win the general if there was a major terrorist attack" so I guess we'll see how much truth there is to that.

I expect a bump in his polls that will peter out in a few weeks.

defectivemonkey posted:

That doesn't make it less gross to actively engage in it.

Fox Ironic posted:

Goddamn people, it's loving intersectional. Nothing exists in a vacuum. It's simultaneously:

- the American "Culture of Violence"

- Toxic Masculinity

- Religious Fundamentalism

- Poor access to mental health support services

- Lack of community intervention

- Economic and Social stressors causing persecution complexes and radicalization

- Lack of common sense gun control and/or appropriate gun socialization

Any individual thing is unlikely to cause violence on this scale, it's the combination and comorbidity of at least a handful of the above factors that lead to mass shootings.

Fox Ironic posted: