|
JerryLee posted:Understanding that a gun (of whatever type) is something you use for a hobby/hunting/self-defense as an extreme last resort, and not something you use to settle disputes or teach a group of "others" a lesson? Go ahead (if you could credit me that's be swell!)
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 07:12 |
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:you're the only one saying gun safety classes So what kind of "better gun socialization" do you believe will reduce violence committed with guns? What would that look like as a policy?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:10
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:And yet 99.99% of people exposed to that same culture don't become crazed murderers. Yeah, you're exactly right. Trouble is that if you look at the number of Islamic folks who become crazed murderers, and the number of the 71 million gun owners who become crazed murderers (as opposed to simply having unhealthy ideas about their guns, which I think is a good idea to address even if it's not leading to crazed murder sprees), it's probably also in that .01% pre-post edit: I just googled and found a stat of 40087 people killed/injured in the US last year by gun violence, it's the BBC so I assume it's at least somewhat credible http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604 , which seems to suggest (going with Fishmech's number of 71,000,000 gun owners) that 99.9995% of gun owners do not become crazed shooters. e: and this is, of course, assuming that each shooter kills or injures exactly one person, no more, which is certainly an oversimplification. I have no idea about the ratio of religious radicalists to "good," or at least peaceable, members of their religion, but I assume it's similarly miniscule. It's almost as though Fox Ironic posted:Goddamn people, it's loving intersectional. Nothing exists in a vacuum. It's simultaneously: (emphasis mine) Fox Ironic posted:Go ahead (if you could credit me that's be swell!) Thanks! JerryLee fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jun 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:11
|
|
|
You know the fact is, every time one of these mass shootings happens now, I start saying a little prayer; please don't let the shooter be black, please don't let the shooter be muslim, please don't let it be somebody that the police or FBI or any other law enforcement ever had on their radar, and finally please let it be some crazy white militia, oath keeper type. Because if it's anybody other than a white militia, oath keeper that was never on anyone's radar, then it destroys any hope of ever having a legitimate, honest conversation about guns in the U.S. gently caress this guy and his loving crazy father and I hope they both burn in hell for all eternity.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:12
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:How would gun safety classes (presumably we're talking for the general public since lol at the NRA allowing mandatory classes for gun owners) help prevent domestic violence? "An understanding." Also gun safety classes for public school kids at large would make a difference if they find a gun at a friend's house or own a gun in the future. For domestic violence, punishing the offender with a history of assault as hard as we'd punish him for felony assault on a random dude on the street. Can't get a gun in prison. Mass shootings/terrorist attacks/plane crashes are statistical background noise that people freak out about disproportionately. If we're uncomfortable with not giving surveillance enemas to every Muslim/gun owner/whoever after a few people get killed in one of those aforementioned things then you should really think about getting rid of most of the amendments and forms of entertainment out there.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:13
|
|
This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:that is their literal policy, it's almost as if this is one giant PR campaign or something Instead of using this tragedy as a bludgeon to paint all of Islam with one brush, can we instead use it as a bludgeon to paint all marketing and PR people with one brush and detain the lot of them?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:13
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:i disagree with your claim that islam is inherently homophobic, which you have not been able to demonstrate or substantiate at all and which is mostly borne out by your intense dislike of religion. as i said earlier, you cannot use bigotry to justify being a bigot I don't want it to be, and I hope a majority of Muslims will choose liberal versions of Islam, just as many Christians are embracing a more liberal form of Christianity than I think is really justified by scripture. I just also think it's dishonest to pretend Islam has nothing to do with Muhammad, Abu Bakr or Ali, all of whom seem to have had people executed for being gay. I hope Muslims will choose to embrace modernity over the archaic basis of their faith, but I'm aware of what a big ask it is. You seem to hope you can do it for them and just pretend there isn't an issue in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:15
|
|
|
radical meme posted:You know the fact is, every time one of these mass shootings happens now, I start saying a little prayer; please don't let the shooter be black, please don't let the shooter be muslim, please don't let it be somebody that the police or FBI or any other law enforcement ever had on their radar, and finally please let it be some crazy white militia, oath keeper type. Because if it's anybody other than a white militia, oath keeper that was never on anyone's radar, then it destroys any hope of ever having a legitimate, honest conversation about guns in the U.S. gently caress this guy and his loving crazy father and I hope they both burn in hell for all eternity. Democrats are already bragging that their Muslim-profiling selective rights policy would have prevented it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:16
|
|
|
DeusExMachinima posted:"An understanding." What the gently caress is "an understanding" mean, how does it reduce violence, and how would you make sure gun owners got it? Also why are we suggesting spending public money educating all children about what to do with a negligently lazy gun owner instead of mandating training for gun owners and requiring them to pay for it? The idea that we should spend public dollars to teach kids about guns, most likely from NRA approved instruction, because of the power of the lazy gun owner lobby is saddening.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:16
|
|
|
BTW who was it who said "homophobes are straight men and have no homsexual feelings they repress?" Because you are incorrect. The logic is really simple actually. Dude sees gomosexual behaviour/homosexual thoughts. They don't even need to be like at the forefront of his mind, any dumb thought triggers it like "hah Danny eats hot dogs funny" But society states that Homosexuality Is Bad, so he is conditioned to be angry with himself and repress these thoughts. So of course when this person sees another engaging in a behaviour they hate themselves for, they lash out in anger at this other person who wasn't doing anything wrong. We make fun of this here, but it's honestly pretty sad. Source: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13691050310001611156#/doi/abs/10.1080/13691050310001611156 Though I can pull up many, many more. likewise, as Fox Ironic said, this has a lot of legs (though societal presaures and prejudice are a bigger contributor, but I admit it's IMO) and blindly blaming Islam is not the answer. I can post scientific articles to prove that as I have them saved to my computer browser's favorites folder. People trot out this chestnut so loving often I need them on speed dial.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:17
|
|
|
So it turns out the guy that got caught on his way to blow up the LA Pride festival was a serial killer looking 20 year old white guy who lived like 30 minutes from me tops weeeeeeeee
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:17
|
|
|
radical meme posted:You know the fact is, every time one of these mass shootings happens now, I start saying a little prayer; please don't let the shooter be black, please don't let the shooter be muslim, please don't let it be somebody that the police or FBI or any other law enforcement ever had on their radar, and finally please let it be some crazy white militia, oath keeper type. Because if it's anybody other than a white militia, oath keeper that was never on anyone's radar, then it destroys any hope of ever having a legitimate, honest conversation about guns in the U.S. gently caress this guy and his loving crazy father and I hope they both burn in hell for all eternity. We had that in Charleston. And the guy who shot up a Judaic center in Illinois a year or two ago. Didn't change a drat thing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:17
|
|
Sinteres posted:I don't want it to be, and I hope a majority of Muslims will choose liberal versions of Islam, just as many Christians are embracing a more liberal form of Christianity than I think is really justified by scripture. I just also think it's dishonest to pretend Islam has nothing to do with Muhammad, Abu Bakr or Ali, all of whom seem to have had people executed for being gay. I hope Muslims will choose to embrace modernity over the archaic basis of their faith, but I'm aware of what a big ask it is. You seem to hope you can do it for them and just pretend there isn't an issue in the first place. I know Christians don't kill people over it (though they used to), but the United States definitely denies basic rights to people on the grounds of Christian principles.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:17
|
|
|
Wow looks like maybe guns are actually really bad
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:20
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:So it turns out the guy that got caught on his way to blow up the LA Pride festival was a serial killer looking 20 year old white guy who lived like 30 minutes from me tops It's poo poo like this that keeps me mostly still in the closet. Jesus.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:21
|
|
|
Recoome posted:Wow looks like maybe guns are actually really bad whoa now its way too soon to be talking about guns
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:21
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:I don't know. I think most people when they aren't getting off on outrage would admit that they'd prefer to host a moderate/lapsed Muslim community to one committed to a strict reading of the Quran and hadith, just as I wouldn't want to live in a community of strict born-again Christians, but obviously you can't start outright banning the Saudi mosques that have done so much to bring back a Salafist understanding of Islam in the modern world. My main hope is that the jihadists are right and the West is an inherently corrupting force that will assimilate Muslim immigrants and make them just as bad at giving a poo poo about their religion as most of our Christians are, particularly in the younger generation. In the meantime, I really don't know what you do about second generation children, often of privilege, rebelling against their parents, the world, the excesses of the West or whatever by becoming jihadists themselves, but I think acknowledging that there are issues which seem to be unique (at the present, not inherently, and admittedly less so in the US than in Europe) to this community which bear some thought would be a good start. Fixing the Middle East is probably a big part of the answer, so there isn't a siren call of poo poo out there to lure in disaffected youths, but good loving luck with that. Starting with a harder stance against homophobia in our schools, in the media and in the citizenship process might not be the worst place to start though. drat dog this is some real thought provoking stuff. It's a good thing that Muslims only started living in America within the last 14 years and their ability to assimilate and live like any other person in large numbers, to an overwhelming degree, is some kind of untested head scratcher we've got to put real thought to. Like, I don't even know what kind of world you'd have to live in where there are millions of Muslims living in an extremely hostile political environment yet they still manage to commit orders of magnitude less domestic terorrism than crazy far right ALL TAXES ARE THEFT/militia/pro-lifer nuts. That'd be a crazy thing. While we're at it, maybe we should contemplate whether being a Jew is compatible with possessing a French national character. I dunno about that Alfred Dreyfus guy... Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jun 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:22
|
|
|
fknlo posted:They do not care one loving bit about the rights, civil or otherwise, of those particular US citizens. Their perceived safety > * The mass shooters didn't care that much either.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:23
|
|
|
TBeats posted:I know Christians don't kill people over it (though they used to), but the United States definitely denies basic rights to people on the grounds of Christian principles. Right, and the social left doesn't pathetically pretend Christianity has nothing to do with it when that happens. Captain Oblivious posted:While we're at it, maybe we should contemplate whether being a Jew is compatible with possessing a French national character. There may not be a Jewish community in France for much longer. Wonder why.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:24
|
|
|
Dead Cosmonaut posted:The mass shooters didn't care that much either. ah yes the classic "but they're bad too" argument, established in many kindergarten classrooms around the world
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:25
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Right, and the social left doesn't pathetically pretend Christianity has nothing to do with it when that happens. So, do tell then, are you asserting that Judaism is incapable of assimilating into French society?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:26
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Right, and the social left doesn't pathetically pretend Christianity has nothing to do with it when that happens. its weird that those conversations don't revolve around how christians should be deported back to their homeland slash are unwilling to integrate slash insert some insaen racist bullshit here
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:26
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:because of the power of the lazy gun owner lobby is saddening.  *plays crazy train.mp3*
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:27
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:We had that in Charleston. And the guy who shot up a Judaic center in Illinois a year or two ago. Didn't change a drat thing. Oh there's actually lots of them. It's just that this particular incident will be quickly swept aside by Trump style racism laying the blame off on muslims and NRA propaganda claiming that a good gay with a gun in that club would have prevented it all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:27
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Right, and the social left doesn't pathetically pretend Christianity has nothing to do with it when that happens. Holy moly are you for real?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:28
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:ah yes the classic "but they're bad too" argument, established in many kindergarten classrooms around the world I'm saying you can same logical reasoning to arrive at a mass shooting. The logical tools to do it are all there.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:29
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:So, do tell then, are you asserting that Judaism is incapable of assimilating into French society? Nice username/post combo. Literally The Worst posted:its weird that those conversations don't revolve around how christians should be deported back to their homeland slash are unwilling to integrate slash insert some insaen racist bullshit here It's weird how I didn't advocate for anything like that for Muslims either. I promise if a bunch of Christian fundamenalists show up on our shores in the near future I'll be upset about it though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:29
|
|
|
Cabbit posted:It's poo poo like this that keeps me mostly still in the closet. Jesus. Seconded. Well, in my case it's at least as much about being a professional whose best contacts and current employment are in Texas / The South, but it's all ultimately of a piece.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:29
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:My main hope is that the jihadists are right and the West is an inherently corrupting force that will assimilate Muslim immigrants and make them just as bad at giving a poo poo about their religion as most of our Christians are, particularly in the younger generation. Fortunately, we have some fairly good evidence that that is the case. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:31
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:It's weird how I didn't advocate for anything like that for Muslims either. i didn't say you did, that doesn't change the fact that that is overwhelmingly the conversation
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:31
|
|
|
radical meme posted:Oh there's actually lots of them. It's just that this particular incident will be quickly swept aside by Trump style racism laying the blame off on muslims and NRA propaganda claiming that a good gay with a gun in that club would have prevented it all. And if it had been a Christian, it would have been a "It was a lone wolf nutcase, no connection to anything going on in the country today, nothing could have been done, now's not the time to politicize a senseless tragedy."
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:32
|
|
|
TBeats posted:I know Christians don't kill people over it (though they used to), they still do
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:33
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Right, and the social left doesn't pathetically pretend Christianity has nothing to do with it when that happens. it's really despicable and cowardly how you're refusing to acknowledge masculinity and the patriarchy for these rampant homophobic acts. i'm beginning to think you don't really care about homophobia at all, and you're just looking for an excuse to attack islam
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:34
|
|
|
My weeeee was mostly the fact that I'm in the lone cool-with-gays liberal, foreigner heavy bastion in southern Indiana and, if not for school being out of session for the moment and LA Pride being a juicier target, it probably would've been Indy Pride or something local here that got blown up successfully Luckily we're safe because it's illegal to investigate these things, thanks congress!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:34
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:And if it had been a Christian, it would have been a "It was a lone wolf nutcase, no connection to anything going on in the country today, nothing could have been done, now's not the time to politicize a senseless tragedy." Except all of them have something in common: they're deeply impersonal. Rarely do mass shooters know the victims they take out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:34
|
|
|
Also don't worry everybody, I'm pretty sure that LGBT people were well aware that fundamentalist religion is a huge threat to them even before this happened
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:37
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:it's really despicable and cowardly how you're refusing to acknowledge masculinity and the patriarchy for these rampant homophobic acts. i'm beginning to think you don't really care about homophobia at all, and you're just looking for an excuse to attack islam If you don't like patriarchy, you're going to love Abrahamic religions.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:38
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:If you don't like patriarchy, you're going to love Abrahamic religions. so now you're blaming religion for the patriarchy as well? man religion is just the source of all gosh darn evil in the ding dang old world, huh?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:39
|
|
|
Let me help you -- we're the only developed country in the world where this regularly happens,. The fact that it happened to be targeted at the LGBT community is awful because gay bars are supposed to be the one place we're safe to be ourselves without reservation or worrying about going to the bathroom after kissing someone because we might get beat up by some straight rear end in a top hat. And yes, it's terrible that this seems to be a religiously motivated crime, but do not for a second pretend that gun violence in the US is exclusive to "Religious people we currently don't like" and/or violence against LGBT isn't something the American religious right has overlooked for years and loving years. You have fuckers saying THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS but won't pass legislation protecting LGBT people from hate crimes or are actively trying to make our lives more difficult. If you hold those views, I am sorry but you can get hosed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 07:12 |
|
|
Sinteres posted:Nice username/post combo. Should we change your name to Captain Cowardice then since you are pathologically averse to laying out the logical consequences of some of your assertions rather than hiding behind implication and "just asking questions"? You have two options here, to be blunt. You can either engage with what I said, which is to say that you are basically acting in a fashion identical to an early 20th century far right Nationalist arguing that religious identity as a Jew is incapable of being reconciled with <insert European national identity here> and cop to your detestable beliefs, or you can explain how Islam is magically different despite what I said in the first paragraph. At least the idiots of the early 20th century had a spine regarding their terrible beliefs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2016 23:39
|
|