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Theta Zero posted:There is only one Zed that Berserker's melee does normal damage to, and only three zeds where it does at least 75% damage to. The rest take half damage. What's the point of even playing Berserker then?
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Jun 13, 2016 23:23
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Kikas posted:I did my negative review as well recently, first I've ever done. I thought it might be a bit premature when I did it because the changes weren't live yet. Was thinking "maybe I should remove it", but since they went live with it, gently caress it. Like, no offense to the devs that stopped by here and made some good (and the occasionally less fortunate) posts, i know PR is hard in a sea of ravaging internet wolves. I certainly don't know how to do it properly, but maybe TWI should find (and pay) someone who does.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:25
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Doctor Shitfaced posted:What's the point of even playing Berserker then? Berserker is supposed to fall into two rolls with two subsets to those. The first is to be a vanguard-like character who tanks damage. The second is to be knockback based, stunning and flinching enemies who break past your front lines. The subsets are whether or not you want to focus more on knocking down enemies for your teammates or being a threat eliminator, which is achieved by opting for traditional melee weapons (for stun potential) or your projectile weapons (for target eliminations). The only problem was that this sort of restriction on Berserker was instated very heavy-handedly and so as of now, Berserker is just incredibly awful.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:29
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Like I said before, these resistances are dumb and completely unasked for. roles were pretty well balanced before and all people really wanted was Hans to be fixed and Sharpshooter to be released. Maybe fix Demo (which you kinda did by making the launcher weigh less) Consider the ball loving not just dropped but tossed into the Abyss.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:32
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Theta Zero posted:Berserker is supposed to fall into two rolls with two subsets to those. The first is to be a vanguard-like character who tanks damage. The second is to be knockback based, stunning and flinching enemies who break past your front lines. The subsets are whether or not you want to focus more on knocking down enemies for your teammates or being a threat eliminator, which is achieved by opting for traditional melee weapons (for stun potential) or your projectile weapons (for target eliminations). Sometimes I forget that since I stick to Normal/Hard mode, I'm playing an almost entirely different game balance wise compared to Suicidal/HoE players because I figured the Berserker was just "Melee fuckers all day." I never even think about stunning and knockbacks.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:37
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She Bangs the Drums posted:Like I said before, these resistances are dumb and completely unasked for. roles were pretty well balanced before and all people really wanted was Hans to be fixed and Sharpshooter to be released. Yeah, I really felt the game was in a good place just before this update. All classes were fun, even if not created equal, and now, since some designer is married to the idea of very unintuitive resistances, the whole community has to eat it and a lot of the classes are objectively less fun to play. Fun defined as making gibs fly in rad ways, one of the core tenets of Killing Floor.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:49
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By the way, which conference did KF2 show up in?
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Jun 14, 2016 00:03
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Theta Zero posted:By the way, which conference did KF2 show up in? PC Gaming. I attended and yelled out "gently caress resistances" when John Gibson took the stage but sadly not loud enough  I failed you, KF2 goonbros
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Jun 14, 2016 00:07
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Doctor Shitfaced posted:What's the point of even playing Berserker then? At this point, to zerk wall pretty much, specced for tank and with healing being stronger you can basically block a particular area off while your teammates shoot around you.
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Jun 14, 2016 00:09
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Are the mod tools out for mutators? Seems like it'd be easy enough to write a mutator that simply removes resists all together.
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Jun 14, 2016 00:21
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Doctor Shitfaced posted:Are the mod tools out for mutators? Seems like it'd be easy enough to write a mutator that simply removes resists all together. I haven't seen any, though when Patriarch dropped, a dev claimed it'd be fairly simple to write a mutator to prevent Hans from ever spawning. Never saw one exist, so I don't know if it was lack of tools or lack of interest or what.
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Jun 14, 2016 00:24
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I went ahead and asked on the forums. If and when mutators can start being coded (and someone doesn't beat me to the punch), I might look into it. It should be as simple as converting a couple of variables from .xx to 1.00 (sans the resists that are found in KF1, which are pretty much agreed to be good).
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Jun 14, 2016 00:40
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Doctor Shitfaced posted:I went ahead and asked on the forums. If and when mutators can start being coded (and someone doesn't beat me to the punch), I might look into it. It should be as simple as converting a couple of variables from .xx to 1.00 (sans the resists that are found in KF1, which are pretty much agreed to be good). Call it Fun Floor.
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Jun 14, 2016 00:48
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ZearothK posted:Baby steps in the right direction (and Demo can finally roll RPG + GL), but LOL, I guess I am the fool for thinking TWI was being careful with the preview and taking community feedback into consideration before releasing this into the wild. Sorry to pour any icewater on this hate-train, but this is a good patch that signals resistances being de-emphasized and fixes the most obvious demo problem.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:07
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Sorry to pour any icewater on this hate-train, but this is a good patch that signals resistances being de-emphasized and fixes the most obvious demo problem. I wish, but past history suggests it doesn't signal anything, unfortunately. Look at what I wrote for the patch prior to this beta fuckup: Psion posted:no dude, that's the best news I've heard out of them in forever. Think about it: Super slow bullets in zed-time sucked, and TWI changed it. But rather than wait 10 years for the team responsible to make faster moving bullet streaks they said "alright playerbase, we know you want this so here it is even though it's not perfect (but we'll fix it later)" And then the next thing they do? Well, you know as well as I do.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:26
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Psion posted:I wish, but past history suggests it doesn't signal anything, unfortunately. Look at what I wrote for the patch prior to this beta fuckup: Well, like mentioned, baby steps. This is the first time we've had a patch that has been overwhelmingly regarded by the community as complete trash, and the appearance of any turn-around at all is frankly 2,000% quicker than I expected it to be. My sense is that the resist changes are going to be nerfed backwards quite a bit. HOWEVER, since resists came completely out of left field and are flabbergastingly broken, it's true, nothing really means anything.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:33
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Honestly I don't consider tweaking the resist system to be admitting it's a failure. They seem to think if they just polish it enough, we'll all like it somehow, despite that being psychologically improbable. Also I don't think this is the first - remember the first patch back in August 2015, when support was king of the hill? They destroyed on-map pickups and support's ammo reserve in a beta branch, community said "the gently caress?" and it (mostly) got reverted before hitting retail - beta even had multiple fixes before they dropped it into the live branch. oh, the giant ammo nerf tested well internally.  I mean that's the root of my problem. Time and time and time again they put out a loving terrible change that tested well internally, the community has to lose their poo poo over it, and even then it (with the exception of the example above) takes months for the issue to get resolved - if it gets resolved. I'll give our resident posters the benefit of the doubt and believe that TWI cares about playerbase expectations. But it raises the question of how often they think the players are willing to accept things on faith instead of, I dunno, anything else. obviously that question is rhetorical for you and me, but whatever, I like typing too many words Psion fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 03:44
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Psion posted:Honestly I don't consider tweaking the resist system to be admitting it's a failure. They seem to think if they just polish it enough, we'll all like it somehow, despite that being psychologically improbable. My assessment is that their approach to analytics and testing is wrong. With analytics, their posts suggest they are looking at the entire playerbase instead of what successful teams are doing, which is far more important. And their internal team clearly doesn't know what it's doing.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:55
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Psion posted:I mean that's the root of my problem. Time and time and time again they put out a loving terrible change that tested well internally, the community has to lose their poo poo over it, and even then it (with the exception of the example above) takes months for the issue to get resolved - if it gets resolved. I'll give our resident posters the benefit of the doubt and believe that TWI cares about playerbase expectations. But it raises the question of how often they think the players are willing to accept things on faith instead of, I dunno, anything else. Like uhhhh
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Jun 14, 2016 03:56
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Oh, definitely. As an example, anyone who does web analytics work (and is good at it), for example, knows that you can only observe certain things from analytics and you must do user testing and engage users to really find out what they think and want. Analytics help you shape the questions you want to ask, they don't provide the answers, because they only tell you what happened - they don't tell you anything else. Not why, not what they think, how they felt, none of it. It's the same thing here. Different questions, because video games aren't websites, but the same principles apply. speaking as someone who's done both web and game beta testing and analytics, I will 100% break out my logical fallacy of argument from authority here and stake the claim that their process is doing it wrong and reaping the loving results. I will also - again - point at Overkill's skill rebalance (which they learned the hard way, too - they hosed up Crimefest a few months back by the numbers, but they said oops, turned it around, and look at that poo poo. It's awesome.) i am available to be opinionated in person, PM me for my hourly Psion fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 04:04
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Just make a public test realm like TF2 does, let people mess around with the changes and listen to feedback.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:09
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Another issue is that the game seems calibrated towards Hard being the appropriate difficulty. On Hard the damage tables are frankly not that noticeable, while on Suicidal+ they are obnoxious.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:28
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Another issue is that the game seems calibrated towards Hard being the appropriate difficulty. On Hard the damage tables are frankly not that noticeable, while on Suicidal+ they are obnoxious. Thats how KF1 was balanced, around Normal iirc.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:30
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Another issue is that the game seems calibrated towards Hard being the appropriate difficulty. On Hard the damage tables are frankly not that noticeable, while on Suicidal+ they are obnoxious. Yeah. Hard is okay right now. But it's honestly too easy, IMO, once you get a bunch of high-level people together. Suicidal, however, is an unfun slog.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:33
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The changes to Demo makes him have a much more definitive role now. He's not the everything-killer he was pre-patch but he's downright amazing at taking down giant zeds immediately (and hilariously launching Fleshpounds into the sky) and still really good at being a general room clearer, especially now that you can lug around a grenade launcher. At this point I'm just wondering if there's a scientific name for my explosion fetish.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:59
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Theta Zero posted:The changes to Demo makes him have a much more definitive role now. He's not the everything-killer he was pre-patch but he's downright amazing at taking down giant zeds immediately (and hilariously launching Fleshpounds into the sky) and still really good at being a general room clearer, especially now that you can lug around a grenade launcher. At this point I'm just wondering if there's a scientific name for my explosion fetish. On what difficulty? I'm not asking so I can pull some "lol you play X difficultly you scrub," sort of thing. I'm curious just for a point of reference. I didn't feel like a giant zed deleter last time I played suicidal as a demo. If that has changed... maybe there's hope.
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Jun 14, 2016 07:05
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Suicidal.
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Jun 14, 2016 07:09
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Theta Zero posted:Suicidal. Good deal. Thanks.
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Jun 14, 2016 07:12
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Struggling to figure out how I'm intended to play Berserker on Suicidal/HoE now, it takes two+ heavy hits to kill an alpha clot, stalkers are basically invulnerable?  I'm uninstalling until they get their pants off their head at TWI.
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Jun 14, 2016 07:33
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Foreskin Problems posted:Struggling to figure out how I'm intended to play Berserker on Suicidal/HoE now, it takes two+ heavy hits to kill an alpha clot, stalkers are basically invulnerable? Headshots or don't bother. You're right, though: Berserker does not feel good right now.
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Jun 14, 2016 07:58
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Foreskin Problems posted:Struggling to figure out how I'm intended to play Berserker on Suicidal/HoE now, it takes two+ heavy hits to kill an alpha clot, stalkers are basically invulnerable? Get a medic buddy and zerk wall, that's all you're good for now.
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Jun 14, 2016 08:28
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I thought Demo was doing fine as a general everything-killer. Until I played Sharpshooter, then I noticed a few things that are some very big no-no's in game design for Demo. Stuff that really should've raised some concern among real playtesters that I managed to notice in a few hours of play. It's a long post but it's just because there's a lot of issues with very fundamental flaws to them. After the third time in a row where Tripwire claims they've "fixed" phantom rockets and grenades and it in actuality gets worse, I'm led to believe they have a very grave misunderstanding of what it means to "fix" something. My projectiles are disappearing like never before (that's in the bad way), which is only amplified by the fact that I now need more ammo to kill things, and also that I have reduced ammo regardless because of my skillset. Demo by far has the worst level 25 skills because one is useless and the other actually makes you worse at your job: The skill alternate to Nuke is downright awful because it doesn't work if you're reloading while Zed time activates. You need to fire during Zed time, and Demo is the class that causes Zed time to activate the most (in other words, you will already be reloading during Zed time so you don't get the bonus). As it is, you can't actually reload and fire before Zed time ends even if you time it without extensions. Nuke, despite being listed in the skill tree clearly intended for single target killing, is also a downright awful skill because it doesn't cause explosions (which you need for killing Fleshpounds), and even if it did you wouldn't see explosions against Scrakes very often (because you need to get close to assuredly hit them in the head with a rocket). On top of that, the poison damage is pathetic (which Scrakes and Fleshpounds resist anyways), and Scrakes and Fleshpounds downright don't panic when hit by it (which is the point of Nuke). It takes two RPG headshots to kill a Scrake on Suicidal with every single skill in my skill tree devoted to doing so. It takes around three direct hits that explode on a Fleshpounds to its weakpoint in its chest to kill it with the same skills. As a level 3 Sharpshooter, I am able to kill a Scrake in two headshots and a bodyshot with the rail gun, and a Fleshpound in three headshots. While you may think Sharpshooter is more skill based, also realize that hitting a relatively small target with a projectile that isn't instantaneous which can also be blocked by any obstacle within a relatively large area takes much more skill than pointing and clicking. You may also say that Demo is more suited for hordes than Sharpshooter is, I would like to retort with that you sacrifice your horde killing power to do this, and as a level 3 Sharpshooter, I can handle hordes just as well as me being a level 25 Demo using these skills without even risking dying from being surrounded. Ignoring the fact that the AoE of explosions was reduced solely to make the AoE boosting skill look appealing, the skill that boosted the AoE while reducing the damage is the most unappealing skill in the world given that the issue isn't the small AoE, it's the fact that my explosions don't even kill the trash within its reduced AoE because of the damage fall off from splash. Reducing the damage only makes this worse. With the skill, all I noticed was now I was just making things stumble instead of killing them now. I understand that they're trying to make players choose which of two roles they wish to play as Demo: a horde killer or target eliminator. But the skill selection not only restricting you to one or the other, but also making you considerably worse in the alternative than if you had no skills for it to begin with is Not Good™. Demo is still good at his job when you're given the chance to do it, but you need to work five times harder than a Sharpshooter with teammates who will cooperate for you to do the same job. Meanwhile as a Sharpshooter I am literally competing to see who can kill large Zeds fastest. And for the love of god, please do not take this as a call to nerf Sharpshooter so it's worse than Demo. On a lighter note, the stun system is really funny and I'm enjoying sending Fleshpounds flying into the sky with RPG directs. Theta Zero fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 11:34
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Theta Zero posted:Ignoring the fact that the AoE of explosions was reduced solely to make the AoE boosting skill look appealing, the skill that boosted the AoE while reducing the damage is the most unappealing skill in the world given that the issue isn't the small AoE, it's the fact that my explosions don't even kill the trash within its reduced AoE because of the damage fall off from splash. Reducing the damage only makes this worse. With the skill, all I noticed was now I was just making things stumble instead of killing them now. Let me drive the nail a bit futher into the coffin - the AoE perk is going against Siren Resistance
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Jun 14, 2016 16:27
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I'm going to keep quoting myself on siren resistance until someone at Tripwire realises how stupid they're being:Lemon-Lime posted:Questioner, for the love of god, can you guys please remove the Siren resistance talent and make it a passive, level-scaling perk benefit, with something like "your explosives aren't destroyed by Sirens but only do X% damage within a Siren's scream area," starting at 25% and scaling up to 100% at 25 (so 3% per level).
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Jun 14, 2016 16:31
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Lemon-Lime posted:I'm going to keep quoting myself on siren resistance until someone at Tripwire realises how stupid they're being: It would be nice if half the fuckin Commando skills went back to being passives, too.
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Jun 14, 2016 16:44
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FaustianQ posted:I would also like the entire level up system revamped, so that instead of tiers for skills, rather you get points for specific skills and skills cost X level points (A level 15 Demo has 15 skill points and can select a combination of skills with a value that totals 15 or less). This makes skill balancing less important and opens up classes to wacky combinations. In fact, go in on it even harder, lovely skills or skills that have lower value, allow people to dump points into multiple times to get increased bonuses. This might gate some abilities but those would be naturally stronger abilities. That and you could come up with more than eight per class. Still catching up with the Resistancegate fallout, but sometime last year I was playing on a heavily customized server that did exactly this. Every zed gave you XP, and you leveled up just like a RPG. Each level gave you a point that could be put into probably 30 different stats, from movement speed, +armor or +health, fire rate, magazine size, reload speed etc etc. There were also a few class-specific ones for each class, like self-explosive resistance for Demo. So everything that you just described has been possible in the game engine for like 9 months at least. e: Even with the generic stats this still let you try and strategize out some builds for each class. Like for Berserker you would want to pump move speed and rate of fire (in this case affects swing speed). Commando would focus on magazine size, Demo would start going for max ammo etc etc. They would have to rebalance the whole game around a system like this, but at this point they could do worse things than just starting over, especially in a beta sub-branch build. Takes No Damage fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 19:39
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So I reinstalled to play Sharpshooter with a friend.. lol @ Sirens taking six headshots to die from a M14. This entire incap system seems really loving lame and designed to just drain ammo. Other than that, Sharpshooter is fun. We just facefucked Patriarch in two minutes using just rail guns. Got the achieveo for killing him without healing. I'm reaaly enjoying the new M14. I think I'mma offperk it whenever I decide to take the plunge and play Commando again. I've noticed a lotta Support players saying it's no longer fun to play. I've not seen a single zerker or firebug all day. Other than that, new patch is kinda meh. I like the Hostile Ground map, it reminds me of West London Night.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:25
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Skoll posted:So I reinstalled to play Sharpshooter with a friend.. lol @ Sirens taking six headshots to die from a M14. This entire incap system seems really loving lame and designed to just drain ammo. Shotguns take 2-3 shots to kill stalkers and crawlers so it's insanely unfun, and the AA-12 ammo still just disappears.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:14
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I'm gonna find a KF2 dev here at E3 and tell them they're dumb dicks for the resistance system
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Jun 15, 2016 20:24
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Yeah Stalkers seem to be insane now. Takes at least three shots to kill with the M14 and they evade like holy poo poo. M14 seems to do a ton of pierce damage so I guess that's why?
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Jun 15, 2016 20:26
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