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dorkasaurus_rex posted:I'm gonna find a KF2 dev here at E3 and tell them they're dumb dicks for the resistance system Film it and post it, tia
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Jun 15, 2016 20:31
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Skoll posted:Yeah Stalkers seem to be insane now. Takes at least three shots to kill with the M14 and they evade like holy poo poo. M14 seems to do a ton of pierce damage so I guess that's why? Yep. M14 does 75 damage, but Stalkers have a 0.3X multiplier against rifle damage. Consequently, low-level Sharps do around 22.5 damage per shot. Of course, that should still be enough to decap in one shot. For reference, the M14 is the weakest Sharp weapon, in terms of damage. The LAR does 105 damage, and the Crossbow does 350 damage. Desert Eagles, for comparison, do 91 damage.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:33
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Yep. M14 does 75 damage, but Stalkers have a 0.3X multiplier against rifle damage. Consequently, low-level Sharps do around 22.5 damage per shot. Of course, that should still be enough to decap in one shot. Why is a .38-40 out damaging a 7.62x51? Skoll fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 20:38
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Skoll posted:Why is a .36-40 out damaging a 7.62x51? My guess is ~~for balance~~ The M14 has substantially higher DPS, since it's got a 20-round mag, a fairly fast reload, and a good rate of fire. Does that justify the damage reduction? I dunno.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:43
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Tripwire be all, WE KNOW GUNS.. Make a fuckin lever action more powerful than what's basically a fuckin M21 SWS.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:48
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LuciferMorningstar posted:My guess is ~~for balance~~ I think the M14 is just an unfortunate casualty to Tripwire's design rule of "every tier 3 gun must be bad."
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Jun 15, 2016 20:56
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ClonedPickle posted:I think the M14 is just an unfortunate casualty to Tripwire's design rule of "every tier 3 gun must be bad." Yeah, but the early-tier Sharp weapons really don't hold up well in later rounds, and I don't think I'd want to main the Railgun due to limited ammo.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:10
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Skoll posted:Tripwire be all, WE KNOW GUNS.. Make a fuckin lever action more powerful than what's basically a fuckin M21 SWS. "We know guns" and yet the RPG behaves wholly unlike reality and then when they try to change it to behave more like reality (minimal splash, high penetration) everybody bitches to high heaven. Tripwire can't win with regards to realism so they might as well make it fun and/or balanced. I stopped playing Support. Level 25 and it feels so weak and unfun. I keep thinking about writing up an  post on resistance and why they're not necessarily bad, but the devil's in the details that Tripwire are completely loving up implementing. I might post it but at this point why bother, there are too many cooks in the kitchen already.But just think about this, with regards to the vague concept of difficulty and class power any one of these is a factor: buffs, debuffs, player level passives, player level perks, the weapon itself, weapon type resistances, weapon type bonuses, hard point resistances, weak point bonuses, numbers of players, server difficulty, and the narrator thing that changes difficulty based on ???. This isn't just "could be" all of these factors are working at the same time, at all times. And this doesn't even get into Zed time and loadouts like the Medic that have an SMG, pistol, shotgun, and AR. How in the everliving gently caress do you balance that? How many loving knobs does Tripwire have to turn to make a class 5% stronger? It's sheer insanity. They keep adding more and more overlapping systems and it doesn't make any loving sense to people with hundreds of hours in the game. And they aren't even done adding classes! We still have two more classes to wedge into this mix and then balance the interplay between. Every patch is now like 40% going back and fixing old classes. Many, many years ago World of Warcraft shifted to the idea of "bring the player, not the class." The idea was to remove the paradigm of depending on a specific set of classes to complete your mission in PVE or PVP or whatever. Viability is the word. If you like playing class/spec X for whatever reason then go for it, we'll try to balance everything as closely as possible so that unless you're on the bleeding edge balance will all be null. That's a laudable goal regardless of how well they implemented it, and I believe they got pretty good at that over the years. Tripwire apparently didn't catch onto that train and it's painful to see. So many classes depend on others to even function and it loving sucks. Without going into detail on what they actually implemented, it seems like their goal is that no team will be successful without a very specific set of perks. Not just 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 DPS; but a min/max set list that is objectively best and I guess if you don't have the right perk to compliment the team then you can gently caress right off. What they actually implemented is just a hamfisted mess. I've beat Suicidal after Suicidal with 5 marksmen and 1 demo like it was a breeze. A joke. Like nothing even gets close to us for anything to matter. Other times I've been beaten to death by a single crawler or stalker because I can't get my stupid pistol out fast enough and "X class that I now depend on to not get beat to death by a nearly invisible mob" is looking another direction. Someone is going to quickly find the min/max "best team" and that will become the meta and any deviation will be crushed. Right now while the balance is hosed it's probably six firebugs lol. I can't wait to hear "Go demo or be kicked" in three months. In closing, please communicate with us what your intent is with a system like this because right now, again, you seem to be painfully relearning the same lessons learned by MMORPG balance so many years ago. It's frustrating as gently caress because you seem to have already thrown out the idea of "being able to deal with all threats that come your way" regardless of Perk which was what we were operating on as of 5/5/16. This turned into a semi-effort post. Damnit! On my phone no less haha Propaganda Hour fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 22:14
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Propaganda Hour posted:What they actually implemented is just a hamfisted mess. I've beat Suicidal after Suicidal with 5 marksmen and 1 demo like it was a breeze. A joke. Like nothing even gets close to us for anything to matter. Other times I've been beaten to death by a single crawler or stalker because I can't get my stupid pistol out fast enough and "X class that I now depend on to not get beat to death by a nearly invisible mob" is looking another direction. Someone is going to quickly find the min/max "best team" and that will become the meta and any deviation will be crushed. Right now while the balance is hosed it's probably six firebugs lol. I can't wait to hear "Go demo or be kicked" in three months. It is five sharpshooters for pure damage and a firebug for panic. Then switch to six sharpshooters with Railguns for the boss wave.
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Jun 15, 2016 22:20
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Propaganda Hour posted:"We know guns" and yet the RPG behaves wholly unlike reality and then when they try to change it to behave more like reality (minimal splash, high penetration) everybody bitches to high heaven. Tripwire can't win with regards to realism so they might as well make it fun and/or balanced. Considering the RPG is made to blow through tanks and aircraft... But thats wholly different from a 200 year old rifle able to out-anything a loving tactic-loled modern battle rifle. I know its just a dumb arcade game but at least try to have some consistency.
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Jun 15, 2016 22:25
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ZearothK posted:It is five sharpshooters for pure damage and a firebug for panic. Then switch to six sharpshooters with Railguns for the boss wave. This would explain the games I had earlier I guess. It might just be because the class is so new that they haven't balanced it, but their balancing hasn't seemed much better than nearly random whack-a-mole anyway. I still have no idea what a berserker is supposed to be doing in this build.
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Jun 15, 2016 22:35
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Propaganda Hour posted:This would explain the games I had earlier I guess. It might just be because the class is so new that they haven't balanced it, but their balancing hasn't seemed much better than nearly random whack-a-mole anyway. I still have no idea what a berserker is supposed to be doing in this build. Disrupting/blocking the enemy. So basically, feeling ineffectual.
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Jun 15, 2016 22:41
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Propaganda Hour posted:"We know guns" and yet the RPG behaves wholly unlike reality and then when they try to change it to behave more like reality (minimal splash, high penetration) everybody bitches to high heaven. Tripwire can't win with regards to realism so they might as well make it fun and/or balanced.  and all, but even focused anti-tank loads still have a respectable blast radius. It is a really big honking explosive charge, after all. Some googling suggests that the "default" RPG warhead has a kill radius of about 4 meters, in comparison to the 40mm's 5 meters. So if you wanted to translate that into the game, the RPG should have only slightly less splash than the M79 or hand grenades in addition to huge direct-hit damage.Not that that's all that relevant to proper game balance. The important part is mostly that the effects of weapons should be intuitive. If it causes a huge loud explosion, it should properly shred anything within that explosion. If it's a big chunky shotgun, it should blast smaller enemies away with a single hit. It's when you add in an invisible layer of abstraction that makes weapons just not behave like a reasonable person could expect that poo poo starts to break down. Which is also one of the most glaring flaws with the resistanes. The charred Husk wielding a flamethrower being resistant to fire is something that makes alright sense. The tiny naked woman taking shotgun blasts on the chin like a champ really does not.
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Jun 15, 2016 23:01
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Perestroika posted:
The RPG7 does also have an anti-personnel warhead that was used, which was fragmentary, not HEAT. It doesn't look anything like the one loaded on the in-game one but 
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Jun 15, 2016 23:30
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Half the time in every game, Devs citing Realism/Lore/Immersion only lasts as long as it is convenient for what they want for easy PR spin. Then throw it out the window when it doesn't fit what they want. The other half of the time, you get it the other way around where they do mean it, and wreck gameplay in favor of what they consider realism/lore/immersion the whole time. See also, Elite Dangerous. Mining technology must be "Realistic" and "Fit the series", so clearly a tractor beam is impossible... Right up until you point out asteroids with visible chunks of metal larger than the biggest ships running out after a few scrapes is unrealistic. Or how the old games had set and forget mining machines. Then realism and lore can go gently caress themselves 
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Jun 15, 2016 23:44
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In response to me just giving the raw data that nearly all zeds resist all of Gunslinger weapons and not vouching either way, I've been told twice now to get good from two different people. Just in case you thought people who give that in response to people talking about balance actually pay attention to what you're saying.
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Jun 16, 2016 00:59
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Theta Zero posted:In response to me just giving the raw data that nearly all zeds resist all of Gunslinger weapons and not vouching either way, I've been told twice now to get good from two different people. That's what you get for trying to persuade the diehard HoE and friends-only players that would support the resistance system from the start.
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Jun 16, 2016 04:25
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closeted republican posted:That's what you get for trying to persuade the diehard HoE and friends-only players that would support the resistance system from the start. 90% of the people that say git gud don't have a single HoE clear.
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Jun 16, 2016 04:37
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Alteisen posted:90% of the people that say git gud don't have a single HoE clear. So they're Hard-only types then?
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Jun 16, 2016 04:42
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closeted republican posted:That's what you get for trying to persuade the diehard HoE and friends-only players that would support the resistance system from the start. Oh, no. I wasn't trying to persuade them. I was just telling them that "hey, Gunslinger weapons sure are resisted by a lot of things."
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Jun 16, 2016 05:04
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Theta Zero posted:In response to me just giving the raw data that nearly all zeds resist all of Gunslinger weapons and not vouching either way, I've been told twice now to get good from two different people. I posted a negative review on Steam that explicitly avoided saying anything about the state of the game, whether it was bad or good, or how much I liked or disliked the resistance system. The closest I got to a judgement was to call the resistance system "opaque and unnecessary". I simply recommended avoiding the game because Tripwire has, by all measures, outright lied on its store page about valuing feedback and engagement, and have fundamentally changed the game twice without a single gently caress given for the community. The bottom line of the review simply states that even if you like it today, you might not like it tomorrow because the developers can't make up their minds. I still got this in the comment stream within 8 hours of it going up: "Not to sound like a sour sh*t, but you have played 20.3 hours of it. Given how much time you have actually spent on the game, I don't think you can assume that you know the game from that much information. Of course, I will agree they are taking too long, but still, grow up a little" To be completely fair, someone else came in and said "Well I've got 400 hours and gave this game a positive review and he's completely spot on in his review so shut up," but still, internet. The only place where you need 400 hours to say 2 paragraphs about a game. Not the game play, the game. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 05:18
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closeted republican posted:So they're Hard-only types then? Usually the case yea.
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Jun 16, 2016 05:30
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Inspired by Coolguye I went and looked at my review, and apparently 16 people thought my bashing of the game increasing complexity was helpful, yay But also gently caress this is harsh buisness, in the last 30 days, only 41% of reviews was positive. How's that for feedback?
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Jun 16, 2016 09:54
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Their internal feedback is still overwhelmingly positive, I don't know what you're talking about.
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Jun 16, 2016 10:02
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Kikas posted:Inspired by Coolguye I went and looked at my review, and apparently 16 people thought my bashing of the game increasing complexity was helpful, yay Tripwire has a x0.2 multiplier to negative feedback, but has a x1.5 multiplier to positive feedback. Their real weakness is internal testing; they have a x3.0 multiplier for positive feedback gained during internal playtesting.
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Jun 16, 2016 11:14
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closeted republican posted:Tripwire has a x0.2 multiplier to negative feedback, but has a x1.5 multiplier to positive feedback. Their real weakness is internal testing; they have a x3.0 multiplier for positive feedback gained during internal playtesting. RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 11:43
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Coolguye posted:"Not to sound like a sour sh*t, but you have played 20.3 hours of it. Given how much time you have actually spent on the game, I don't think you can assume that you know the game from that much information. Of course, I will agree they are taking too long, but still, grow up a little" It takes ten thousand hours to master something, only Steam reviews of people with at least that time in the game should be considered for scoring.
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Jun 16, 2016 13:32
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Is the Winchester still in the game?
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Jun 16, 2016 13:40
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Gonna say this is kind of not cool if one of us did it: https://www.reddit.com/r/killingfloor/comments/4oc7ay/tripwire_dev_on_new_resistances/
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Jun 16, 2016 16:12
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I'm going to say the opposite. Bravo to whoever did that. Tripwire please remove head from rear end, tia.
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Jun 16, 2016 16:31
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Plan Z posted:Gonna say this is kind of not cool if one of us did it: Kinda agreeing with this. That's kinda hosed up since there's a level of implied trust.
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Jun 16, 2016 16:32
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Questioner did reply there, and I can perfectly understand why he wouldn't want to come back to this thread in the foreseeable future.
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Jun 16, 2016 16:47
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Just saw that and was going to message him but apparently he got there first. Sucks that he had to go actually post and explain how he can be a grumpy old man here. Hopefully he doesn't get any blowback E. I'm kind of confused how a random non-goon could even find him here, unless it's some hard core lurker
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Jun 16, 2016 16:48
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DreamShipWrecked posted:Just saw that and was going to message him but apparently he got there first. Sucks that he had to go actually post and explain how he can be a grumpy old man here. Hopefully he doesn't get any blowback The forums aren't currently closed and it's really obvious that he's a staff member just going by posts in the thread; if you read the thread you can figure it out. It does suck. Does tripwire have any community management dudes at all?
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Jun 16, 2016 17:13
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DreamShipWrecked posted:Just saw that and was going to message him but apparently he got there first. Sucks that he had to go actually post and explain how he can be a grumpy old man here. Hopefully he doesn't get any blowback This would not even remotely be the first time a lurker sniped something from the SA forums off onto Reddit or Tumblr or some other cesspool. IdolNinja had it happen all the time in the Saint's Row threads back when he was still just a dude modding the games (for equal parts weal and woe), and he was so aware of it that when he finally got hired by Volition he stopped posting in the SR threads almost entirely, only pointing out various points of fact and basically repeating news posts that people had missed. Chewbot also got burned by that once or twice during the making of Banner Saga, I think. Could be wrong on that one. The point is though, you would be amazed how many people still give a crap about this dead-rear end comedy forum in TYOOL 2016.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:18
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Coolguye posted:The point is though, you would be amazed how many people still give a crap about this dead-rear end comedy forum in TYOOL 2016. That is probably what surprises me most, that people even know we exist enough to lurk on his posts. Oh well, hopefully nothing will come of it other than the normal reddit salt
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Jun 16, 2016 17:21
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Grapplejack posted:The forums aren't currently closed and it's really obvious that he's a staff member just going by posts in the thread; if you read the thread you can figure it out. It really doesn't look like it. Most posts I see are from those who only identify themselves as devs.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:26
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ZearothK posted:Questioner did reply there, and I can perfectly understand why he wouldn't want to come back to this thread in the foreseeable future. the question is whether or not they understand why none of us want to come back to KF2 in the foreseeable future, really if he chooses to bail out on this thread that's his call, but I don't blame any player for being mad as gently caress about that update and posting here about it. This is SA, not the Tripwire forums; there shouldn't be some ~dev veneration~ just because. though I suppose since Questioner does QA and that most likely means balance I guess I can understand reacting poorly to the idea of "fire your balance people" because that meant "fire yourself" lmao Psion fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 17:29
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QA and game design are not the same departments
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Jun 16, 2016 18:39
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So steam says the free weekend is live but I'm only given the option to buy it. While I'm here though, what is the overall goon opinion on this game? I see a lot of moaning (but what goon game thread doesn't have that)
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Jun 16, 2016 18:50
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