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gtrmp posted:"Elders are constitutionally incapable of learning how to use modern technology" is a Vampire trope that runs the risk of turning the setting into unintentional farce pretty quickly. Elders who've just awakened from a century-plus torpor, sure, but it's kind of silly to have someone who's been active for most of the last half-century treating a computer like a magic witching box, especially if that elder is personally running a network of contacts and catspaws that's even slightly enmeshed in mortal society. A modern-day elder likely won't know how computers work on a technical level, but that doesn't mean that they won't at least know how to use email or a cellphone, even if they personally choose not to use that technology themselves. It's actually all part vampires being static, sterile and uncreative beings. As they age they get stuck in repeating patterns instead of really changing, a few notable exceptions (like PCs) aside. The speed at which technology improved over the last 100-200 years is also incredibly faster than in previous centuries. A lot of older people have trouble adapting, and they don't even have a single century of age! There's also the fact that Dominate, Presence and Blood Bonds are such amazing tools at controlling people that Elders can probably get away with not knowing modern technology. It's a weakness in their armor that can be exploited by canny neonates/hunters, but they are also known as a pretty arrogant bunch. I mean, have high-tech Elders as much as you want, but it's actually pretty in-theme and becomes a farce only if you treat it that way.
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Jun 18, 2016 21:49
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Libertad! posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BKzuzjjCro Network Zero tries their best, but beggars can't be choosers when it comes to spokespeople
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Jun 18, 2016 22:33
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Typically I like to have an elder's relationship with technology reflect their personality rather than having a blanket idea that all of them are poo poo with cellphones. For instance an elder Mekhet who in life used to be an architect in ancient Rome is going to have a very different sort of relationship with modern technology than a Gangrel who was a warrior-chief or something in life, to say nothing of their respective amount of time being awake (and it might even be fun to turn expectations on their ear, giving the Gangrel a faster grasp of technology-as-tool than the Mekhet's obsessive need to understand it all!) Usually I think elders hold technology at a distance rather than profess total ignorance of it. It's one thing to understand how a cell phone works and want to use it for emergencies. It's another thing entirely to grasp why mortals like Facebook or to even understand why anyone would have a need for casual instant communication. Imagine a hypothetical elder who has a smart phone. They've got maybe thirty years of modern wakefullness under their belt. They understand that if their haven is on fire or if a rival is making a move against them, they can use this thing to instantly get ahold of people. They understand they can use it as a calculator, they can use it for photos, and they can use it to ask Google whatever they want. Where they're going to fall short is the culture of it. They don't understand why people have a need for these things to be instantly accessible. I'm sure totally-at-odds elders exist but they're less interesting than more nuanced ones.
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Jun 18, 2016 22:46
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MonsieurChoc posted:It's actually all part vampires being static, sterile and uncreative beings. As they age they get stuck in repeating patterns instead of really changing, a few notable exceptions (like PCs) aside. Personally, I've never found the various takes on vampires that remove human psychological traits (like "vampires can't adapt" or "vampires can't feel love") to be all that compelling; if anything, they detract from the horror that should be essential both to being a vampire and to confronting one. The Beast and the Hunger are, by themselves, more than enough to make being a vampire viscerally horrifying. Anything that makes them mentally inhuman beyond that should be a natural consequence of both a) the character's choices and actions under the Beast's influence and b) the social isolation that would naturally follow over time from being an exclusively nocturnal immortal. Making vampires psychologically alien from the moment of Embrace, or as an intrinsic characteristic of Blood Potency advancing, or whatever - it makes the vampire less human and thus makes their actions (and their desires) less horrifying. And on the flip side, the more inhuman something is, the less horrifying it is for a hunter to have to actually hunt and hurt and kill it. There's a fuzzy distinction between "this thing used to be a person" and "this is a person" when it comes to vampires and similar monsters, and when they clearly and explicitly fall on the former side of that line, they just aren't as effective as protagonists or as antagonists.
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Jun 18, 2016 23:22
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Yeah, claims that vampires categorically can't grow emotionally or adapt to new circumstances whatever have always rung hollow and only served to undermine the game. Notably, VtR 2E doesn't even try to make the claim, instead describing that even an ancient vampire will rapidly adapt to and adopt the traits of their new environment as they imbibe the blood of the modern-day people there. Would an ancient vampire find itself completely at a loss when shown how to use a mystical scrying mirror? No? Then why couldn't it handle Skype? Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 23:34
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Also: an immortal who's psychologically stuck in the past and is literally incapable of change is actually an incredibly pathetic figure. Which is great if that's what you're going for, but it completely undercuts their place in the narrative and the setting if they're meant to be an actual, rounded character who serves a role other than pathos or punchline.
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Jun 19, 2016 00:10
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah, claims that vampires categorically can't grow emotionally or adapt to new circumstances whatever have always rung hollow and only served to undermine the game. Notably, VtR 2E doesn't even try to make the claim, instead describing that even an ancient vampire will rapidly adapt to and adopt the traits of their new environment as they imbibe the blood of the modern-day people there. Then why can't my mom grasp that rapidly hitting the power switch on her computer when it doesn't work is a bad idea, no matter how many times I tell her? 
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Jun 19, 2016 00:51
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As a counter example, there's plenty of people currently alive who've had no end of opportunities to learn about using computers and phones and either can't or don't want to, and old age is by no means universal in that group.
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Jun 19, 2016 01:06
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It seems like a holdover from early Masquerade "The
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Jun 19, 2016 01:54
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Yeah, vampire elders aren't super out of touch because they're vampires; they're super out of touch because they're old as balls.
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Jun 19, 2016 01:57
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Rand Brittain posted:Yeah, vampire elders aren't super out of touch because they're vampires; they're super out of touch because they're old as balls.
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Jun 19, 2016 03:03
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Is there like a thing somewhere in one of the Requiem 2e books about how vampires just out of torpor are mentally flexible and quickly adapt themselves to whatever era they just woke up in, so it's only a vampire that's been awake for a long-rear end time that's a hidebound old fogey, or is that somebody's house rule I read once that got stuck in my head?
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Jun 19, 2016 03:12
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I could swear I remember reading something somewhere about vampires actually setting up groups to help vampires just out of torpor adapt to the new ages and such they woke up into. Explaining the new technology, what it does, and other important things. I thought it was a VtR thing, but no one else here is bringing it up (in that context; someone did mention their game along those lines) so I'm wondering if I'm misremembering now.
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Jun 19, 2016 03:25
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Stephenls posted:Is there like a thing somewhere in one of the Requiem 2e books about how vampires just out of torpor are mentally flexible and quickly adapt themselves to whatever era they just woke up in, so it's only a vampire that's been awake for a long-rear end time that's a hidebound old fogey, or is that somebody's house rule I read once that got stuck in my head? I'm pretty sure there is, and it goes on to talk about how vampires become more and more like the people they feed from over time, absorbing customs and speech patterns and such.
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Jun 19, 2016 03:45
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I can't remember the book, but there's a situation in one of them where a Crone elder has come out of torpor and is completely unable to comprehend that he's no longer being worshipped as a god. The Fog of Ages hits hard sometimes.
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Jun 19, 2016 04:04
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The idea that an inability to adapt to technology is somehow an inhuman one is absurd. Have you literally never met other human beings? If anything, making old-rear end vampires awful at using technology does the opposite - it makes them way more startlingly human. An enemy that can easily adapt to any changes thrown at them without worry is a frighteningly alien one.
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Jun 19, 2016 13:16
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I feel like it's time to revisit the Vampire Historical Society, the secret Camarilla/Invictus backed program to establish more 'living history' sites worldwide to give elders who can't quite adjust somewhere to spend their days and definitely not a secret diablerie larder for up and coming potentates. Perhaps with convenient night classes on subjects like 'computers', 'driving', 'why those flashy things people point at you are a problem' and 'eclipses: not actually a giant snake swallowing the sun, just basic physics'.
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Jun 19, 2016 13:22
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Honestly the more amusing idea is the one Elder who patiently and angrily writes to the History Channel almost every day with a list of corrections.
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Jun 19, 2016 13:35
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ProfessorCirno posted:Honestly the more amusing idea is the one Elder who patiently and angrily writes to the History Channel almost every day with a list of corrections. And they're also all wrong because they're two thousand years old and everything gets jumbled up and they only saw parts of each event anyway.
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Jun 19, 2016 14:05
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Seems oddly relevant
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Jun 19, 2016 15:49
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oh wow 
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Jun 19, 2016 17:16
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They're apparently doing a Werewolf one too.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:38
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Yeah, if you haven't seen What We Do in the Shadows and you're a Vampire fan, you're doing yourself a disservice.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:39
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ProfessorCirno posted:The idea that an inability to adapt to technology is somehow an inhuman one is absurd. Have you literally never met other human beings? If anything, making old-rear end vampires awful at using technology does the opposite - it makes them way more startlingly human. An enemy that can easily adapt to any changes thrown at them without worry is a frighteningly alien one. The point is that old-rear end vampires who are unable to adapt should be stuck in the past because they're old-rear end humans, not because vampires are by their very nature fundamentally incapable of adapting at all. And old-rear end mortals can get away with not adapting where old-rear end vampires can't, because old-rear end mortals don't have legions of desperately ambitious neonates and ancillae lurking in the shadows waiting for a moment of weakness to eat their souls.
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Jun 19, 2016 18:26
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Loomer posted:Yeah, if you haven't seen What We Do in the Shadows and you're a Vampire fan, you're doing yourself a disservice. I watched the film specifically because it was mentioned in this thread or one of its precursors. It was great.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:15
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Kurieg posted:They're apparently doing a Werewolf one too. *ahem* It's called We'rewolves.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:27
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ProfessorCirno posted:The idea that an inability to adapt to technology is somehow an inhuman one is absurd. Have you literally never met other human beings? If anything, making old-rear end vampires awful at using technology does the opposite - it makes them way more startlingly human. An enemy that can easily adapt to any changes thrown at them without worry is a frighteningly alien one. This is true but I feel like it's also kind of tonedeaf. There are certainly people - of all ages - who struggle to adapt to technology, absolutely. There are also people who adapt surprisingly well. I've known 90 year olds who can run circles around tech support, it's just you don't really encounter people like this because you don't really have to, in the public sector. I think my point is that while techphobia or simple tech-ineptitude is probably much more common among elders than among neonates, it's kinda of a bland way to characterize an elder's relationship with the modern world. Humans fail to adapt because they don't want to, because they don't need to, and because they lack the knowledge-base and soft skills that invisibly underlie most technology. All of these things can be true for an elder, but then they might not be, and it's always kind of hilarious when a group of neonates suddenly realizes that the Prince has been reading their emails. You never know what's lurking in somebody's background to make technology easy or difficult to grasp. I think to your point about humanity Cirno, though, there is a lot of room for drama there. An elder who wants help with his cellphone can be comedic fodder but can also be a humanizing touch in an otherwise inhuman game.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:16
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When I played an elder, he could understand technology fine, but pretended not to in order to annoy people
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Jun 19, 2016 21:14
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Right, I'm not trying to say "old vampires should totally be lovely with technology," I'm just pointing out that being unable to adapt to social or technological changes is not some alien vampiric weirdo trait, it's what humans do all the time. If you really wanted to get into it, I could see that the less humanity an Elder has, the better they are at adapting not just to tech but to, well, anything. The Beast keeps them honed.
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Jun 19, 2016 21:56
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Isn't the beast supposed to be kind of an idiot at certain times? Also there seems to be a fair old amount of confusion based on what the beast is actually supposed to be "like".
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Jun 19, 2016 23:42
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Ultimately, most older people fail to "get" technology not because their brains have turned to mush or anything, but because they don't want to and don't think they should have to. With vampires it would be the same; the ones who don't "get it" don't fail to get it because computers are complicated. They're the ones who refuse to carry a cell phone because haha, people expecting to be able to reach them wanting things at any time of night is a ridiculous imposition.
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Jun 19, 2016 23:52
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Just want to say that I really enjoy playing Werewolf 2e. I really enjoy helping to develop my pack and our spirit totem, talking to spirits and exploring the Hisil, using the various Wolf, Shadow, and Moon gifts, and taking advantage of the different forms (though I get less use out of Dalu than any of the others). It's real fun despite some of the rules being confusing.
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Jun 20, 2016 00:12
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Rand Brittain posted:Ultimately, most older people fail to "get" technology not because their brains have turned to mush or anything, but because they don't want to and don't think they should have to. With vampires it would be the same; the ones who don't "get it" don't fail to get it because computers are complicated. They're the ones who refuse to carry a cell phone because haha, people expecting to be able to reach them wanting things at any time of night is a ridiculous imposition. Counterpoint: I used to do tutoring in how to use computers for older people at my local library. I had a variety of people, some who took to it like a duck to water but a lot of them just could not get things to work properly, no matter how much you may try. There was one old lady who insisted on moving the mouse so that it was sideways on and appeared to have a complete inability to actually hold the mouse the right way up.
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Jun 20, 2016 00:13
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Rand Brittain posted:Ultimately, most older people fail to "get" technology not because their brains have turned to mush or anything, but because they don't want to and don't think they should have to. With vampires it would be the same; the ones who don't "get it" don't fail to get it because computers are complicated. They're the ones who refuse to carry a cell phone because haha, people expecting to be able to reach them wanting things at any time of night is a ridiculous imposition. My father took two years to remember how to do something as simple as cut and paste despite receiving constant reminders, and he was earnestly trying to manage his online presence and computer side of his small business back in the early 2000s, and my grandmother who's nearly 90 and didn't have a phone that didn't have a rotary dial until her iPhone a few years ago figured out texts, email, and FaceTime in about three days, but still puts the url for every website she visits into the Google search bar when on her computer. I'm in an information science degree, too, so I can further attest that adaptation to technology's loving weird sometimes, and trying to boil it down purely to age or mentality doesn't really get it all across. For instance, the UX of a given product, or even the standards accepted for entire concepts, can have a massive impact on the learning process that most users will never be able to verbalize.
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Jun 20, 2016 00:44
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Josef bugman posted:Counterpoint: I used to do tutoring in how to use computers for older people at my local library. I had a variety of people, some who took to it like a duck to water but a lot of them just could not get things to work properly, no matter how much you may try. There was one old lady who insisted on moving the mouse so that it was sideways on and appeared to have a complete inability to actually hold the mouse the right way up. My uncle regardless of how frequently I explain it to him calls literally every pop-up alert a virus.
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Jun 20, 2016 01:37
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Night10194 posted:And they're also all wrong because they're two thousand years old and everything gets jumbled up and they only saw parts of each event anyway. Plus as the Requiem Ventrue clanbook made a big point of, the existence of Dominate complicates a vampire historian's job immensely.
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Jun 20, 2016 03:03
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I am amused by the idea of one of the 'reliable' records being from a crotchety old Gangrel methuselah who, in Cuneiform 4, gives a more or less accurate account of much of ancient antiquity but also calls everyone, without exception, a oval office, an irritation, or a ignoble little poo poo.
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Jun 20, 2016 03:59
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U0jfSqPWPk&t=33s Everyone can mess up using technology, especially if you're aiming for a funny beat or story. Having things go wrong for the villain in silly mundane ways can do wonders for establishing a lighter tone
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Jun 20, 2016 16:52
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Stephenls posted:Is there like a thing somewhere in one of the Requiem 2e books about how vampires just out of torpor are mentally flexible and quickly adapt themselves to whatever era they just woke up in, so it's only a vampire that's been awake for a long-rear end time that's a hidebound old fogey, or is that somebody's house rule I read once that got stuck in my head? Yeah there is. As of Requiem 2nd edition, torpor dreams don't just scramble all your old memories and give you Fog of Ages, they also give your weirdly prophetic visions of what the world is going to be like when you wake up that make it very easy to adapt to whatever time period you end up in. There's a fiction piece written by an ancilla whose job it is to help torpored elders adjust to the modern world once they've woken up and she's like "this job is easy as gently caress, the elders pop out of their coffins and within a day or two they already know more about the modern world than I do. I still don't get Twitter and they're happily tapping away on smartphones." Blood and Smoke, page 67 posted:We are a society of immortals, but we are not completely stagnant. The young Firebrands paint pictures of ancient Kindred nervous of cell phones, startling at the honk of every motorcar. This is not so. I have had the honor of serving as liaison to the Eclipsed at our church. I aid those elder Sanctified waking from the long slumber, easing their transition into the new age. So I have some perspective. Our dead minds are active during torpor. They hone themselves on nightmares, preparing for the ever more modern world. This Long Night of the Soul purifies us for our ghastly purpose. The elders awaken with soft, pliable minds. They mimic the herd, picking up new tricks with the frightening alacrity of a toddler playing with a smartphone. An elder who went to sleep after the Great Chicago Fire recently showed me how to use this thing called Twitter.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:37
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Doodmons posted:Yeah there is. As of Requiem 2nd edition, torpor dreams don't just scramble all your old memories and give you Fog of Ages, they also give your weirdly prophetic visions of what the world is going to be like when you wake up that make it very easy to adapt to whatever time period you end up in. The early to mid 2000s must have been a terrible time then. "Too long have I slumbered in darkness, I must pwn some n00bs in Halo 2."
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Jun 20, 2016 18:45
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