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catlord posted:Does the Barbara/Luke relationship get really dumb after the second trade (of Batgirl, I mean)? Maybe it's because I've not read Batwing, but it doesn't seem like an awful choice. It hardly exists. catlord posted:Also, I've not read any Batwoman, but there are two Batwomen, with similar names and looks? What's up with that? First, everyone who hasn't picked up Batwoman Elegy is dumb as hell. Kate is the only Batwoman, but Kathy Kane, the original BW, popped up again at the end of Batman Inc as a Spyral agent. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 20:14
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catlord posted:Does the Barbara/Luke relationship get really dumb after the second trade (of Batgirl, I mean)? Maybe it's because I've not read Batwing, but it doesn't seem like an awful choice. There's Kathy, the Golden Age Batwoman, who wears a yellow outfit and a red mask, and the current Batwoman, Kate, who is the one in black with red hair and batsymbol. I don't know what you mean by similar looks though. They're both Kanes, I think Kathy is Kate's great aunt or something.
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Jun 29, 2016 20:18
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catlord posted:Does the Barbara/Luke relationship get really dumb after the second trade (of Batgirl, I mean)? Maybe it's because I've not read Batwing, but it doesn't seem like an awful choice. It's more that Luke's the boringest loving dude in the world and totally unappealing both as a character and as a love interest, and speaks to more of what I don't like about Batgirl of Burnside - how it enforces its own canon in a really aggressive way even though a lot of it feels fake and unearned. That Qadir dude was more dynamic as a potential love interest to Barbara than Luke, who mine as well be a cardboard stand-in for how desperately uninteresting a character he is. quote:Also, I've not read any Batwoman, but there are two Batwomen, with similar names and looks? What's up with that? Okay. So, this'll be dumb as hell but there's two Katherine Kanes. Katherine "Kathy" Kane is a wealthy heiress who saw Batman and decided to be him. She was the original Batwoman, wore a yellow suit with the domino-mask-plus-cowl getup. She has black hair. Original Batwoman, one of the main love interests of Batman before she dumped his rear end. She became the leader of Spyral and its first Agent, Agent Zero. Then the New 52 happened and she no longer existed, except she did, because she kills off Talia Al Ghul at the end of Batman, Incorporated volume 2. But she no longer exists in the New 52 canon (there's a character in Grayson who is totally and completely Kathy Kane in looks, appearance, and costume, and position as Agent Zero of Spyral except she has a different name. Volume 2 of Batman Incorporated happened in the New 52 so Kathy Kane simultaneously does and does not exist. It's a gigantic loving clusterfuck. Katherine "Kate" Kane is Bruce Wayne's cousin, a member of the Kane family in Gotham, one of the most important and prestigious family names in Gotham, whom Martha Kane (who then became Martha Wayne) is her aunt. She's an out lesbian who was washed out of West Point for being an out lesbian, who saw what Batman is doing and decided to do her own version separate from any Wayne influence. She has short-cropped red hair and wears a red wig alongside the all black Batwoman suit which you're aware of. It must be noted that the character was invented pre-New 52 and existed as Batwoman before the New 52 temporarily before Flashpoint hit and rewrote her entire backstory. In any case Kate fell in love with and got engaged to police captain Maggie Sawyer on Gotham PD, and was about to marry her before DC editorial being the worst group of people ever undid it at the last minute, causing the creative team behind Batwoman to quit in protest. Then she was raped by a vampire and mind-wiped into being her girlfriend before eliminating the entirety of the Maggie Sawyer/Kate Kane romance, because DC editorial is the worst group of people ever.
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Jun 29, 2016 20:27
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Pretty sure Kathy's as much the same character now as Batman was crossing the N52.
Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 20:33
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Teenage Fansub posted:Pretty sure Kathy's as much the same character now as Batman was crossing the N52. Grayson directly disproves that, unless Agent Zero being a totally different person who just happens to look and dress exactly like Kathy Kane is some sort of fakeout.
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Jun 29, 2016 20:34
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Wasn't she revealed as Netz's daughter in Inc (e: and if not, does that really contradict anything?) You've read them much closer together and more recently that I have (e: Pretty sure I forgot about the end of Inc by the time she popped up in Grayson and didn't link them before looking up Wikis right now.) Grayson is nothing if not reverent to Batman Incorporated. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 20:38
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Toxxupation posted:Gail Simone's Batgirl is underrated and Batgirl of Burnside is overrated. Like, people pretend that Simone's run is total trash but it's really not, and although James Gordon, Jr. is a garbage baby idiot loser character Simone gave Batgirl an actual dedicated supervillain (the same way that Nightwing got Two-Face) in Knightfall that feels like a villain that Batgirl, especially the Batgirl that was Oracle, would fight. Simone's run is actually pretty decent and although I prefer Barbara as Oracle, where she's far more dynamic and interesting a character, if you're gonna bring her back as Batgirl having her deal with PTSD over being paralyzed makes sense even if Simone went kinda overboard at points. I'd disagree with your Oracle point though. I'd say that it's not about Barbara doing it, it's that Barbara is finding a way to still be a hero in the wake of her injury. And by that measure, Frankie finding a way to be a hero while being disabled makes her a perfect new Oracle, even if yes, her disability kind of comes and goes. I don't understand what you're talking about with the run ignoring her paralysis, I mean the first arc's villain is the AI based on her own brain gone rogue because it's internalized Barbara's bitterness over her paralysis and wants to re-take Barbara's body. I do agree with some of your points though regarding the Simone run, and I do think that jettisoning basically the entire supporting cast from her run upon the writer switch was a mistake even if it makes sense in the context of the story (I mean, I manage to keep in touch with old friends after a cross-town move and I don't even have a motorcycle and grappling hook to help me get around). Overall I still think Simone's run is the inferior one, but I'm not gonna fly into a hyperbolic rage Luke Fox does blow though. Teenage Fansub posted:It's all Snyder. All Star Western was really good except for the one arc where sales started flagging I guess so everybody went "QUICK QUICK DO A CROSSOVER, BRING JONAH HEX TO THE FUTURE SO SUPERMAN CAN SHOW UP, THAT'LL FIX IT".
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Jun 29, 2016 21:00
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Teenage Fansub posted:Wasn't she revealed as Netz's daughter in Inc (e: and if not, does that really contradict anything?) gently caress actually yeah you're right. I think. It's been a while and I try to forget Batman, Inc volume 2 due to disliking it so much.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:30
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Toxxupation posted:Nightwing was actually a pretty good series that a lot of people don't really talk about. Both these things are true. Teenage Fansub posted:Also, All Star Western rules, Bat Gordon rules (I can't wait till his action figure is out at the end of the year) and read Midnighter. Yeah the big long Batman post was wrong about both these points. Death of the Family was a nadir and Batgordon was the best of Snyder's run. And All-Star Western ruled and Jonah Hex ruled before that. Bring back Western comics, DC.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:24
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Death of the Family was the worst thing Scott Snyder has ever written, as far as things that I have read of Scott Snyder's, if only just for the idea of Bruce Wayne visiting the Joker at Arkham or wherever *as Batman* but out of costume. I don't think I'm mis-remembering that...
redbackground fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 22:25
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Endgame was worse than Death of the Family but both of them are awful.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:41
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He visits Arkham as Bruce Wayne (being a recent charitable benefactor wanting to see where his money was being spent), then says "You dropped this" holding up the Joker card he found in the batcave. Joker doesn't look up or otherwise acknowledge Bruce Wayne's presence. This is paid off in Endgame being about how Joker literally doesn't care about Bruce Wayne unless it's a way to hurt Batman. Which, to me at least, makes sense.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:41
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redbackground posted:Death of the Family was the worst thing Scott Snyder has ever written, as far as things that I have read of Scott Snyder's, if only just for the idea of Bruce Wayne visiting the Joker at Arkham or wherever *as Batman* but out of costume. I don't think I'm mis-remembering that... Personally I found Snyder's output to be in a steady decline midways into Zero Year. Mostly due Snyder's obsession of writing the next Dark Knight Returns and always going for the huge Status Quo-changing stories. It doesn't help that he simply can't deliver satisfactory endings to his "epics". When he writes stories in a smaller scope or one-shots he's definitely better.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:43
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Semper Fudge posted:There were a more than a few really good New 52 books, even at launch. I will maintain this until my dying breath. I'm in total agreement. The New 52 may have been a hot mess, but there were a lot of really, really good books during the last five years.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:59
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Teenage Fansub posted:It hardly exists. I'll take hardly exists over bad, though. Anyway, thanks for the explanations on Batwoman, I intend to read some of that but I'm honestly not too sure where to start. Is Elegy a good way to start? That's pre-New 52, right?
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Jun 30, 2016 00:05
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Elegy is the best way to start. Unless you want to read or have already read 52 first. You can jump more or less right from Elegy into her New 52 solo series. I would recommend dropping it once Williams leaves and just go for the new issues of Detective. Elegy is pre-reboot but it really doesn't matter. There's a couple of scenes with Batman, at the time Dick was Batman but it really isn't going to hurt anything if you imagine it was Bruce. purple death ray fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 00:12
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TwoPair posted:I'd disagree with your Oracle point though. I'd say that it's not about Barbara doing it, it's that Barbara is finding a way to still be a hero in the wake of her injury. And by that measure, Frankie finding a way to be a hero while being disabled makes her a perfect new Oracle, even if yes, her disability kind of comes and goes. I don't understand what you're talking about with the run ignoring her paralysis, I mean the first arc's villain is the AI based on her own brain gone rogue because it's internalized Barbara's bitterness over her paralysis and wants to re-take Barbara's body. I do agree with some of your points though regarding the Simone run, and I do think that jettisoning basically the entire supporting cast from her run upon the writer switch was a mistake even if it makes sense in the context of the story (I mean, I manage to keep in touch with old friends after a cross-town move and I don't even have a motorcycle and grappling hook to help me get around). Two things about Frankie that I think you and Toxx both kinda missed. 1. Her disability is, if I recall, muscular dystrophy, which is a condition that isn't a black and white 'in a wheelchair forevers' kind of thing. So sometimes she uses a chair, sometimes crutches, and is even able to stand unaided sometimes. It's not a mistake, it's trying to portray a different kind of disability to what Babs had as Oracle pre-reboot. Which leads into... 2.Her being Oracle/Operator is basically Fletcher and co making the best of a bad situation. Almost everyone agrees that getting rid of Oracle was a bad move, but Barbara's paralysis was also tied to a story that has a lot of baggage regarding how women are portrayed in comics, not to mention some super-creepy and rapey overtones. (And I actually think Killing Joke is a classic, but it's a problematic one to say the least) So, there's no going back on Babs as Batgirl, and you both want to avoid/downplay/maybe even subtly retcon TKJ AND have a new character take up the legacy, you create one who has the same positive representations aspect, in having a disabled hero, and even make her a woman of colour as well, without having that disability be burdened with being the result of a woman being victimised by a murder clown.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:14
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Except I don't want a new Oracle, I want Barbara Gordon as Oracle. The point isn't that I think a disabled superhero is necessarily inherently appealing, it's that Barbara Gordon as that disabled superhero was. And again I feel like the entire "Operator" situation was another very smug and specifically dancing-around-the-issue way to introduce an Oracle without saying that it's Oracle, which to me is kinda gross, more gross then just not having an Oracle in the first place. Like that whole "My name is Or...Operator!" line from Frankie was eye-rollingly cutesy.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:27
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Oh, I got pissed off about them dancing around the name. And you're being sort of obtuse about the fact that Barbara as Oracle is off the table. That's kind of the point. And Oracle as a disabled hero was a MASSIVE part of the character's appeal. There's a heartbreaking piece by Jill Pantozzi from right after the reboot which addresses why, as a redheaded woman who uses a wheelchair herself, Oracle was so important. Plus Barbara has the advantage of having 20 years of history prior to TKJ and Suicide Squad to draw from. Of course she's more instantly appealing, because she's an established character. Again, making her Oracle again is not an option both in the sense that DC want her as Batgirl, and that no-one in the growing female audience and fan press wants to redo the Killing Joke so that we have yet another female character defined by sexualised violence. Having a new character fulfil a similar role, with a disability based on a genetic disorder sidesteps the latter issue and is an imperfect, but actually feasible fix for the former.
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Jun 30, 2016 01:02
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The point is that by placing her in such close association with Batgirl I'm constantly reminded about how she's not Oracle, and further I'm sort of annoyed by the smirking, smug attitude that Fletcher and co took to canon/Batgirl's history (which is part of why the wedding issue just sorta pissed me off despite loving Alysia as a character; it felt like the writers of Batgirl of Burnside stealing a character note they hadn't earned that Simone had actually put in the real legwork to put Alysia at that point and trying to force an emotional connection out of it) where they kept winking at the audience and going "Eh? Ehhhhhhhhhh? You get it?" I guess I sorta get the not-racist criticism of N52 Wally West, because to me I find [strike]Oracle[/strike] "Operator" character that same sort of smirking at the camera and technically giving the audience what they want sort of idea that pissed off Wally fans when N52 Kid Flash showed up. But by doing so they ended up to me sort of...hobbling the character from the start, because I'm never gonna really consider Operator on her own merits. She's constantly and unendingly going to be the character that isn't Oracle, the off-brand store-specific coke replacement over the real deal. I guess that's what really annoys me about Batgirl of Burnside if I'm being honest. It felt like the writers picking and choosing elements of previous characters that they thought was best but not honoring the ideas or following through on the concepts. If it were a clean slate, pure reboot I would've appreciated it more than this half-step the creative team took that ended up pleasing nobody. Or rather, didn't please me. Clearly I'm an outlier.
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Jun 30, 2016 01:17
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The thing is, DC tried to have more representation of those with disabilities and those characters have barely been seen since their books were cancelled because they had no close ties to one of the big players. So you HAVE to have the new Oracle replacement be a Batman character, otherwise you're basically putting her in a book that will die in about 8 issues time and smirking to yourself about how you've totally made the DCU more diverse. To use a Marvel comparison, Silk is actually doing pretty poorly in print sales. Imagine how much WORSE it would do if she had no ties to Spider-Man and was a completely original property. Like still in the MU, still the same personality and basic story beats, but no spider-powers, no Jameson, no Black Cat... I know this is coming back to a fairly mercenary point, but at some level, you have to acknowledge that just adding more diverse characters isn't enough if you only put them in 'safe' corners of the universe that don't actually count to the majority of readers. I've got no issue with you not enjoying the recent Batgirl run. I really liked it (though.... yes you're all totally right about Luke, though Dick was still an rear end in a top hat in that wedding story) but I feel like criticizing Frankie's role without considering that the creative team's intent was to fill the void left by Oracle while showing sensitivity to the book's female audience, and working within the obvious constraints that the reboot and Simone's run gave them to deal with, is unfair. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 01:25
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The whole point was Batgirl was the banner of DCYou and they specifically ignored a whole bunch of elements of Simone's run - namely, all of them outside of a piss-poor (I can't really describe the wedding issue as anything else) flaccid sort of intimation at Alysia's character being suddenly "important" before being transplanted entirely by Frankie. Their freedom was clearly wider than most considering Barbara had a whole bunch of plot elements never mentioned before then, and I'd rather they have gone all the way with a totally new canon over what felt like to me was a raid of Simone's run and just sort of stealing the elements that "worked" without ever really thinking about why they did.
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Jun 30, 2016 01:35
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Travis343 posted:Elegy is the best way to start. Unless you want to read or have already read 52 first. You can jump more or less right from Elegy into her New 52 solo series. I would recommend dropping it once Williams leaves and just go for the new issues of Detective. Thanks. I'm looking forward to Detective because I'm a big fan of Steph and Cass, so I wouldn't mind reading more of the other characters in there. And yeah, I'll make sure not to go past the creative change.
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Jun 30, 2016 01:52
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Toxxupation posted:The whole point was Batgirl was the banner of DCYou and they specifically ignored a whole bunch of elements of Simone's run - namely, all of them outside of a piss-poor (I can't really describe the wedding issue as anything else) flaccid sort of intimation at Alysia's character being suddenly "important" before being transplanted entirely by Frankie. Their freedom was clearly wider than most considering Barbara had a whole bunch of plot elements never mentioned before then, and I'd rather they have gone all the way with a totally new canon over what felt like to me was a raid of Simone's run and just sort of stealing the elements that "worked" without ever really thinking about why they did. Not really, it's fairly common for a book to utterly shift focus and add pet characters between runs. Let me ask this.... let's say your suggestion had happened and this was a new volume. Instead of Batgirl #35, it was Batgirl #1. Would that change your opinion any? Again, no issue if not, I'm just curious why the downplaying of the previous, unsuccessful (I didn't like what I read, but even aside from that, the book had NO buzz or presence) run is a bigger factor than what the book did or did not do well itself.
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Jun 30, 2016 02:24
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It's exactly what I advocated reading it through in the beginning, when the literal end of issue #34 ends with "Alysia you're my best friend forever, and I'll never leave you, let's move to Burnside together and be roomies, like we will always be, because I realize that the family you build is just as if not more important than the people you are blood-related to" and the literal beginning of issue #35 is "Oh, see you Alysia, moving to Burnside, deuces". The whiplash is so jarring it has aftershocks. My issue was that it's a having-its-cake-and-eating it too situation. If it was a total reboot with a new volume and new #1 well then, I don't care about what it does or doesn't do (and I can headcanon it away as Barbara having lived with Alysia after the moving situation fell through and Alysia and Jo fell totally in love to the point where Jo's moving in and Barbara moves out, having met up with a friend she made during physical therapy after she went back to persue her postgraduate degree at college). Or I can just ignore all that because it's a new canon and who cares whatever the new stakes are and Fletcher and co can too, but the very fact that it's a direct followup to what came immediately before and further it's not a clean break from continuity as promised and more Fletcher, etc sort of cannibalizing elements of Simone's run and canon, it ends up feeling like it's a fence-straddler over its own thing. ed: Wait sorta misread your post. Yeah, I woulda been fine with it. I'm more annoyed that it presents itself as a "medium" reboot when it's really not and in fact a direct sequel to Simone's stuff. It's basically my issues with Rebirth as a housecleaning event except on a much smaller scale, where it just introduces needless complications to the canon instead of wiping the slate clean as was advertised on top of basically stealing elements of previous canon that worked. It feels...kind of disrespectful, if I'm being honest. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 02:39
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...Are you sure mainstream US comics are the right thing for you? Because dumping what you don't like and keeping what you do, even if that causes continuity errors, is kind of a way of life with these books as they currently are, right or wrong. I think that's what I'm having the harder time with understanding, especially as I'm used to the period before the recent trend to rebooting to a new #1 every 6 months, where this would just happen when a new creative team came on at issue 253 of a book. It's kind of like complaining that a Disney movie has musical numbers. Like, it's a fair enough complaint, but it's also kinda of a staple of the formula. EDIT: Just in the interests of owning my hypocrisy, I'm sure I've bitched about something just as minor between runs. Hell, I ditched Azzarello's Wonder Woman because of his changes and I feel pretty strongly that almost all of the substantive ones were a bad call. So... maybe I do get it, just that I have nowhere near the attachment to the stuff you liked from Simone's run, and most of it seems to be what Fletcher and co think didn't work. (And the wedding issue may have been clunky because they got a lot of poo poo, and I mean a LOT for not including Alysia, especially after the Dagger Type debacle.) Like, I read about 3 issues of the New 52 Batgirl before the relaunch and dropped it because it was so on the nose and clunky about how it was confronting the Killing Joke thing. Like, she freezes up in the first issue because a guy points a gun at her? I get that that's probably realistic from a PTSD stance, but from a writing standpoint, opening your action story with that beat in like the first page is a pretty hard sell, especially when a lot of the audience just wanted to grit their teeth and deal with the fact that she was back in the cowl. And I fuckin' love Gail's Red Sonja and Birds of Prey. I own Killer Princesses in trade (somewhere). I guess that's the thing I was trying to understand, though, and probably my own biases got in the way in a "Who on earth was into the previous run?" kinda thing. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 02:51
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I've never really seen it as blatant as I did with Batgirl, and it's also that I've always read run by run over story by story outside of the currently ongoing series I follow, which have all had dedicated creative teams for the duration of their runs. And it's more like Batgirl left so many elements of Simone's run in the cold that I literally did not know if Alysia was trans any more until the final issue of the run where there's a flashback panel confirming it. I think that's indefensibly poor storytelling and more illustrative of how deeply the new creative team dropped the ball on integrating previous canon. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 03:37
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Toxxupation posted:He visits Arkham as Bruce Wayne (being a recent charitable benefactor wanting to see where his money was being spent), then says "You dropped this" holding up the Joker card he found in the batcave. Joker doesn't look up or otherwise acknowledge Bruce Wayne's presence. 
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Jun 30, 2016 04:25
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Batgirl of Burnside, I think, will be more remembered for Babs Tarr and Batgirl's new costume than anything that happened in the actual story. Which is fine by me when the actual story is pretty awful. People say Gail Simone went too dark with her run, but I think Stewart and Fletcher went in the opposite extreme. There's nothing wrong with making a lighter toned book, but Barbara never felt like Barbara. It was basically taking Bryan Q Miller's Stephanie Brown run and remaking it for Barbara, but the writers clearly didn't give a crap about anything that happened to Barbara before their run because they deemed it problematic. Now let me say this about The Killing Joke: what happened to Barbara was awful. There's really no good excuse for it. She was used to give Batman and Gordon a heap of manpain, while having no real agency in the story. And she would have been completely abandoned as a character in the comics for a long period of time, if it wasn't for Ostrander creating the concept of her becoming an information broker as Oracle. And what happened to her paved the way for characters like Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown to emerge and be so well loved as they are. This run actively tried to erase what happened in The Killing Joke to her in their last issues, by implying they were all fake implanted memories. What that means for the story isn't so relevant, as much as what it means from a historical perspective. It reminds me of the very uncomfortable trends going on to erase or just not discuss history that's considered problematic. What happened to Barbara in The Killing Joke was real. It's there, and it's always going to be there so long as the story continues to be told (and considering it's one of DC's highest selling Batman stories period, it won't go away any time soon.) I know a lot of people don't like what happened to Barbara. I certainly don't. But to try to retcon that history, or pretend it didn't happen, feels inherently wrong to me. It also invalidates her history as Oracle, one she had for over 20 years of comics, as well as the legacy of Batgirl. DC has made many mistakes with Barbara going into New 52. Erasing Oracle, while keeping Killing Joke, was probably one of the worse ones. It looks like they now want to fix that, if the Birds of Prey Rebirth stuff is any indication of changing attitudes. But I can't help but feel like the Burnside writers really tried HARD to pander with trying to retcon what happened to her.
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Jun 30, 2016 05:57
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WickedHate posted:I dunno, the Steel movie didn't have Superman in it. But it did essentially have Oracle, oddly enough.
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Jun 30, 2016 06:23
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Endgame would'be been a lot more effective if that Arkham intern Joker was hiding out as appeared in more than a couple of comics a year or so apart. Okay. Zero Year is over. Let's see about this new storyline. Oh that's that guy from that one Annual in the distant cobwebs of my memory. Oohhh. e: Oh yeah. He was in Manor. That don't count. ee: Just read the last Constantine 
Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 09:29
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I liked End Game because it was like a zombie story and also the idea that Joker is a constant with Gotham owns
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Jun 30, 2016 10:57
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DC just announced a Midnighter/Apollo miniseries by Steve Orlando and Fernando Blanco. Link. Essentially an extension to my second favorite DCYou book. Now just give Orlando an Authority book after this and we'll be set for life.
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Jun 30, 2016 15:18
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There's no topping the original Authority, let it rest in peace.
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Jun 30, 2016 15:22
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Semper Fudge posted:DC just announced a Midnighter/Apollo miniseries by Steve Orlando and Fernando Blanco. Link. gently caress yes. Midnighter is amazing.
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Jun 30, 2016 15:25
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Jun 30, 2016 18:01
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Ooh, I'd hang this on my wall. Hope the series is good, got burned bad on Red Hood/Arsenal.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:05
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lotus circle posted:Batgirl of Burnside, I think, will be more remembered for Babs Tarr and Batgirl's new costume than anything that happened in the actual story. Which is fine by me when the actual story is pretty awful. People say Gail Simone went too dark with her run, but I think Stewart and Fletcher went in the opposite extreme. There's nothing wrong with making a lighter toned book, but Barbara never felt like Barbara. It was basically taking Bryan Q Miller's Stephanie Brown run and remaking it for Barbara, but the writers clearly didn't give a crap about anything that happened to Barbara before their run because they deemed it problematic. Here's the problem, though. I'm fairly sure the options were Tarr/Fletcher/Stewart get to tell their story with Barbara (and the point about it making more sense for the pre-boot version of Steph is true) or the book gets cancelled. Sure, it might still have gotten a relaunch along with Rebirth, but I don't know that it wouldn't be in, like, Frank Tieri's hands instead of Hope Larson. I also think the 'they retconned The Killing Joke OMFG!' thing is both way overstated and kind of panicking over nothing. If TKJ is a good story or even a great one, then it'll sell even if it's not in continuity. Plus the ending of the last Batgirl run absolutely didn't retcon it. The best you can say, if you're not being disingenuous, is that it gave an out for anyone who wants an excuse to ignore it. It's basically the equivalent of the Barry Allen 'trapdoor' from CoIE. The idea existing doesn't mean Barry didn't 'actually' die in the story as published. And a way to retcon TKJ if a future writer wants is not the same as actually executing it. Otherwise Barbara has no history with Nightwing, because we see her flirt with Dick in that splash page too.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:18
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Gaz-L posted:Otherwise Barbara has no history with Nightwing, because we see her flirt with Dick in that splash page too. I see no real indication that that's not the case outside of the awful wedding issue that randomly crowbars rear end in a top hat Dick Grayson in there because Luke Fox is totes for reals Barbara Gordon's true love forever. To be clear, I'm joking. But barely. Man Batgirl of Burnside had a lot of chips on its shoulder.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:21
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I read through the run and didn't personally like it outside of the costume and art style, though it's certainly better than Simone's at any rate. Probably an example of style over substance but I respect what the creative team was trying.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:26
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