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That entire first Arc was just Aaron spinning his wheels desperately trying to pad it until Secret Wars.
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Jun 30, 2016 09:06
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BrianWilly posted:
They left out the "or anything like that" part. They said it was actually Steve, and not a clone/dupe, and that he was acting of his own free will - which he is, because it's fake memories, not mind control. Yes, it's a dumb cop-out, but it was clearly that exact dumb copout when they said it.
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Jun 30, 2016 09:14
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Odin is less mad about it being a woman and more just because his spell on the hammer isn't working as he wants and he doesn't know who has it and that just has him seething.JoshTheStampede posted:They left out the "or anything like that" part. They said it was actually Steve, and not a clone/dupe, and that he was acting of his own free will - which he is, because it's fake memories, not mind control. It's not even fake memories either. It's real memories because they really happened.
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Jun 30, 2016 09:25
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And she isn't Odin's son. Odin's always been kind of a dick when he's not having his Odin naps. He was always punishing people for something back in the Kirby/Lee days. He'd whisper with three exclamation points. He's always taking away Thor's power, or sending him off to space.
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Jun 30, 2016 10:24
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BrianWilly posted:Sorry, this is from a ways back, but I really just had to highlight how bluntly heteronormative this reading is. And then ya just had to throw in the "it's just like incest!" bit despite the fact that these characters are not blood-related whatsoever...so, way to unwittingly go for the If these two guys are into each other why that's just kinda gross isn't it? angle. If movie Bucky was a woman from Steve's private past for whom he sacrifices everything and everyone to protect...at absolute best people might read them as a platonic friendship. No way would anyone go on about how she's totally like his sister or something and how gross it would be for Steve to have romantic feelings for this completely unbiologically-related woman. If hypothetical Vagina movie Bucky had grown up with Steve from a very young age, we're both orphans, and had the big brother/little brother relationship as it is said/implied in the movies, then yes I would be skeeved out. I'm sorry their relationship in the MCU is a heteronormative sibling relationship. poo poo Chris Evan and Sebastian Shaw both said this is how they view the relationship, so they would be playing the characters like this! Edit: I have nothing against them being a couple. In fact it would be an interesting take and I am intrigued by it, but these versions of the characters are not this. If they had started out like this I would be fine with it, but at this point it is shoehorning in a romantic connection into a relationship that is not romantic. Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 12:31
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Like poo poo has never been shoehorned into comics before. I'm not saying that it's necessary, I'm just saying I honestly wouldn't care either way. Which I guess makes me a hero.
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Jun 30, 2016 14:46
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http://www.fastcocreate.com/3061358/marvel-comics-editor-in-chief-axel-alonso-announces-divided-we-stand-for-the-fall/ Look, I know it's a teaser and we don't know what books will be out yet, but this is their big initial advert and there is one definite LGBT character (America Chavez). RiRi and Nadia are yet to be confirmed I suppose, and maaaaaybe Kate Bishop realises she's actually Bi down the line, since there was a hint of it at the end of Young Avengers. Still though, that's plus Angela (+ Sera, maybe, in GotG), Anole in Extraordinary X-Men, the Icemen and Psylocke if they all continue on in books. Otherwise, there are some supporting LGBT characters like Silk's friends making occasional appearances. quote:"That's the effect you want to have," Alonso says. "We're all about creating books that connect with readers of all types.This has been a natural and organic process for us, and there's been an evolution on it for us over the last few years. Looking at the teaser now, I'm noticing for the first time that you've got five caucasian characters in the mix, five African-American characters, a Korean-American Hulk—it's more diverse than I ever would have imagined, and I think that's a good thing." Oh really, Axel? http://geeksout.org/blogs/nathan-tabak/how-marvels-editor-chief-closeted-angela Metalshark fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 14:51
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Metalshark posted:Oh really, Axel? http://geeksout.org/blogs/nathan-tabak/how-marvels-editor-chief-closeted-angela They really didn't as they were just letting the series speak for itself, and not making a big deal out of it. There was no way of closeting her.
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Jun 30, 2016 14:57
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Metalshark posted:Look, I know it's a teaser and we don't know what books will be out yet, but this is their big initial advert and there is one definite LGBT character (America Chavez). RiRi and Nadia are yet to be confirmed I suppose, and maaaaaybe Kate Bishop realises she's actually Bi down the line, since there was a hint of it at the end of Young Avengers. Still though, that's plus Angela (+ Sera, maybe, in GotG), Anole in Extraordinary X-Men, the Icemen and Psylocke if they all continue on in books. Otherwise, there are some supporting LGBT characters like Silk's friends making occasional appearances. What are you talking about Kate Bishop's sexuality for? Fielding your All-New All-Gay Avengers?
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Jun 30, 2016 15:57
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bobkatt013 posted:They really didn't as they were just letting the series speak for itself, and not making a big deal out of it. There was no way of closeting her. Mr. Alonso grew up in San Francisco and went to UC Santa Cruz and Columbia. There's remarkably little chance he's some sort of secret homophobe unless he spent the first ~25 years of his life shuddering with repressed rage at the cultural mores surrounding him. I read his statement as understanding that how we talk about sex and sexuality has evolved a lot in the past 15-30 years, and continues to evolve at a pretty steady clip. Instead of saying "this is a lesbian and her lesbian trans partner", he'd rather just...show that. Describe the plainly-presented reality (of the fiction) in whatever terms are most appropriate, but Marvel won't risk either being offensively behind the times/inaccurate now, or describing things in ways that we as a culture might realize later are problematic. Marvel under AA hasn't been shy or tawdry about showing diverse kinds of people and relationships, so it's not like they're trying to hide this stuff. Things are what they are, and you can call them as you see them.
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Jun 30, 2016 16:01
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We're really not at the point where a fictional character doesn't need to label their sexuality yet. Representation is still a thing sexual minorities really want and need.
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Jun 30, 2016 16:09
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I think it's fine to say that a character doesn't need to label their sexuality if they're otherwise shown being a human being but 90% of the time "doesn't have to label their sexuality" means "never shows physical affection that can't be written off as friendly" which isn't something that applies to straight characters. (That said I haven't been following Angela so I'm not really willing to comment on if that is what it is doing or not and so only can give it benefit of the doubt.)
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Jun 30, 2016 16:12
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TwoPair posted:What are you talking about Kate Bishop's sexuality for? Fielding your All-New All-Gay Avengers?  I was looking at the teaser image and seeing Axel Alonso going on about diversity and connecting with all readers while there is one definite LGBT character among 26. What happens if America is in the kind of book you're not into as a reader specifically looking for a Marvel comic that features LGBT characters? For the record, I don't think Axel Alonso is a big homophobe or whatever, as I imagine he probably has to walk the line of the corporation which is probably super frustrating, but these are softball questions that he is fumbling, and making Hercules straight is just bizarre. ^^^Lurdiak has hit the nail on the head there in the post above.^^^ Edit: I missed your post Squizzle, but, while I respect your point which is definitely a valid interpretation, I just wish he'd have answered the questions straightforwardly, since to me, and plenty of other fans, it does come across as evasive and it tarnishes the opportunity to celebrate the representation that we are actually getting, if that makes sense. Again, the crucial thing is getting the book but if you're not celebrating it, you're just leaving it to speak for itself, it's gonna get lost. When the book is cancelled due to low sales, it sucks to see LGBT fans to discover it late having not been aware, when they might have been if there was buzz about the awesome space lesbians. I missed off Wiccan and Hulkling in my previous post, but as I've said recently, it's not like there are so many LGBT characters appearing in current Marvel books at the moment, and they are always as part of teams now that Angela's series has ended. Obviously, I'm glad we have what we have, but I just wanted to point it out, is all. I am obviously thrilled that there are so many PoCs in the teaser image too! Since you asked, my All-New, All-LGBT Avengers: Wiccan Hulkling Karolina Dean America Chavez Phyla-Vell Moondragon POD Valkyrie I miss Ren Kimura, but I wanted to keep it to non X-Men or Inhuman characters. Annabelle Riggs could hang out in a HQ-based role though. Metalshark fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 16:12
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Metalshark posted:
Moondragon is bisexual. She can't be on the All-Gay team.
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Jun 30, 2016 16:17
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SilverSupernova posted:Moondragon is bisexual. She can't be on the All-Gay team. Dang, I didn't know that. I'll edit my post since Valkyrie is bisexual too anyway.
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Jun 30, 2016 16:19
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ImpAtom posted:I think it's fine to say that a character doesn't need to label their sexuality if they're otherwise shown being a human being but 90% of the time "doesn't have to label their sexuality" means "never shows physical affection that can't be written off as friendly" which isn't something that applies to straight characters. Right, the only people that do get their sexuality labeled is LGBT people, since "straight" is the default and always assumed. Therefore, no labels is often an excuse for having no explicit LGBT people and passing it off as an evolved form of progressiveness.
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Jun 30, 2016 16:20
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edit: Nevermind
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Jun 30, 2016 16:26
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Wiccan and Hulkling are probably the single best relationship, period, that Marvel is portraying right now and arguably the most high-profile one (and if it isn't, it's number two behind Star-Lord/Kitty Pryde). Especially since all the legacy relationships are over or currently nonexistent like the Richards or Peter/MJ.
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Jun 30, 2016 16:56
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Well in terms of long-time relationships, there's also Absorbing Man and Titania, my all-time favorite Marvel couple. I'm rather happy to hear they were actually prominent in a recent comic. I need to pick that up tomorrow. Crossbones and Sin still seem to be together, too.
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Jun 30, 2016 17:40
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 I know it's a throwaway exchange written mostly to reference a joke and not actually important in any way, but I'm trying to figure out a way for this exchange to make any canonical sense and coming up short.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:10
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NikkolasKing posted:Question: I'm not sure why it's surprising that supervillains would be assholes to a woman. They are supervillains!
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Jun 30, 2016 18:25
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Toxxupation posted:
If that is Mary Jane then during the All New storyline
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Jun 30, 2016 18:25
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bobkatt013 posted:If that is Mary Jane then during the All New storyline It's Jean Grey and it notably references the All-New X-Men storyline where the 616 X-Men traveled to the 1610, specifically the moment when 616-Jean Grey reads Ganke's thoughts and finds he's thinking about her in the shower.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:29
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Squizzle posted:Mr. Alonso grew up in San Francisco and went to UC Santa Cruz and Columbia. There's remarkably little chance he's some sort of secret homophobe unless he spent the first ~25 years of his life shuddering with repressed rage at the cultural mores surrounding him. Alonso is weird in that he'll say the absolute wrong thing but do the right one. Like when their last big round of title announcements had more diverse characters, but no women or people of colour in creative roles, his response was basically "SHUT UP! WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE WANT! DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO MAN!" ...and then announced Chelsea Cain and Kate Niemcziek on Mockingbird and TNC and Stelfreeze on BP and Walker and Greene on Power Man/Iron Fist. bobkatt013 posted:If that is Mary Jane then during the All New storyline EDIT: Ignore I am a dumb.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:30
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Toxxupation posted:It's Jean Grey and it notably references the All-New X-Men storyline where the 616 X-Men traveled to the 1610, specifically the moment when 616-Jean Grey reads Ganke's thoughts and finds he's thinking about her in the shower. Yeah so I guess that story still happened. Its one of the fuzzy places due to pocket burger.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:36
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Trast posted:I'm not sure why it's surprising that supervillains would be assholes to a woman. They are supervillains! Marvel Supervillains are a special breed, it's why I love them so much. When you think "SUPER VILLAIN" you think Darkseid or Thanos or some thing hideously evil. But most Marvel supervillains are just weirdos and idiots and don't mean anything bad by it. This is like 90% of Spidey's rogues from what I have read. My fascination with it all started back when there was a funeral for Stilt-Man. How can you hate them after that? Supervillains are mostly just a bunch of losers with the very occasional real bad seed. And Creel loves his wife deeply.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:40
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NikkolasKing posted:Marvel Supervillains are a special breed, it's why I love them so much. When you think "SUPER VILLAIN" you think Darkseid or Thanos or some thing hideously evil. But most Marvel supervillains are just weirdos and idiots and don't mean anything bad by it. This is like 90% of Spidey's rogues from what I have read. Weirdos and idiots are in fact frequently likely to be assholes to women. Also someone can love their wife dearly and still be an rear end in a top hat to women. Both of these describe family members of mine for example.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:47
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NikkolasKing posted:Marvel Supervillains are a special breed, it's why I love them so much. When you think "SUPER VILLAIN" you think Darkseid or Thanos or some thing hideously evil. But most Marvel supervillains are just weirdos and idiots and don't mean anything bad by it. This is like 90% of Spidey's rogues from what I have read. Do you think marvel supervillains sit around thinking about which of the good guys they arch would be a good criminal? Like do Electro and Doc Oct sit around counting money and say to themselves "You know Spider-Man's never gives a hint about being a villain but man would I love to do crimes with him. That would be so hot."
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Jun 30, 2016 18:56
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Clearly Red Skull does.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:58
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ImpAtom posted:Weirdos and idiots are in fact frequently likely to be assholes to women. It was kinda weird that Titania would be with a guy who says poo poo like that, though. Have some self respect, Titania.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:59
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Is the sexism against FemThor realistic sexism or is it laughably farcical sexism that the writers insert in order for FemThor to have a strawman to destroy? (Thus ensuring that these comic book writers can say " I'm a feminist, just look at my Thor comics " and get Progressive Points.)That's partly why I've avoided the FemThor comics. Having smug men trying to show off what great feminists they are with badly written sexism is really grating, especially since I am supposedly their target audience as a Woman Who Reads Comics. I hate being talked down to.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:18
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Nobby posted:It was kinda weird that Titania would be with a guy who says poo poo like that, though. Have some self respect, Titania. And another thing, why does Harley Quinn hang around with Joker? HIJK posted:Is the sexism against FemThor realistic sexism or is it laughably farcical sexism that the writers insert in order for FemThor to have a strawman to destroy? First of all, calling her FemThor is making you sound like a tool. To answer your actual stupid loaded question, the sexism she faces is about 50% less vile and overt than the sexism that the internet vomited forth when the character was initially revealed, so if anything it's way too subtle and light-handed.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:21
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HIJK posted:Is the sexism against FemThor realistic sexism or is it laughably farcical sexism that the writers insert in order for FemThor to have a strawman to destroy? (Thus ensuring that these comic book writers can say " Thor barely ever addresses sexism overtly outside the first issue where it's a bit heavy handed as all hell but necessary work Aaron does to establish the new status quo. Odin's a giant raging douchebag and he's sexist as all hell but it comes across as realistic and Odin being a corrupted rear end in a top hat over any sort of strawman sexist for Thor to defeat.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:25
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Lurdiak posted:First of all, calling her FemThor is making you sound like a tool. To answer your actual stupid loaded question, the sexism she faces is about 50% less vile and overt than the sexism that the internet vomited forth when the character was initially revealed, so if anything it's way too subtle and light-handed. Okay, but this doesn't really answer my question. I don't care what the internet said about FemThor, I care about what the writers are saying about FemThor. Toxxupation posted:Thor barely ever addresses sexism overtly outside the first issue where it's a bit heavy handed as all hell but necessary work Aaron does to establish the new status quo. Odin's character seems to be "be as dickish as possible no matter what" so this makes sense  If it's only the first issue (or the first few) than that sounds tolerable.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:26
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Lurdiak posted:
Yeah this basically. I find lady Thor, femThor, etc to be dumb rear end in a top hat ways to describe Thor and basically only use FosThor as an uneasy compromise over just straight "Thor" for clarification's sake, but since the whole point of Aaron's run is that Thor is Thor and Odinson is not Thor but is, in fact, Odinson, I wish people would just subscribe to that over this annoying backhanded diminutive descriptions of Thor that go against the entire point of Aaron's work on Thor since she's been introduced.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:30
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HIJK posted:Is the sexism against FemThor realistic sexism or is it laughably farcical sexism that the writers insert in order for FemThor to have a strawman to destroy? (Thus ensuring that these comic book writers can say " Creel says "Even Thor's a woman now...feminists are ruining everything!" which is MRA talking point #1. So I'd say it's realistic. There was also that Angela issue with Bor's dialog being just "MRA talking points" and "Unsolicited opinion on Israel", so any comment section on any website.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:31
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Is the general accepted way to identify the characters who have been or are Thor right now to call Jane Foster "Thor" and the asgardian formerly known as Thor "Odinson?" I imagine a lot of people call her FemThor because of the video game habit like referring to the Mass Effect protagonist FemShep and DudeShep.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:32
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Lurdiak posted:And another thing, why does Harley Quinn hang around with Joker? To be fair, that relationship could work, but it's rarely written well. Especially in the Harley ongoing, which was just incredibly dumb and cringy while trying to "fix" the issue. HIJK posted:Okay, but this doesn't really answer my question. I don't care what the internet said about FemThor, I care about what the writers are saying about FemThor. The two are related. If she gets sexist poo poo irl there's no reason she wouldn't in-universe, and it's stupid to complain about a writer giving that part of the audience a gently caress off.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:32
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Trast posted:Is the general accepted way to identify the characters who have been or are Thor right now to call Jane Foster "Thor" and the asgardian formerly known as Thor "Odinson?" I imagine a lot of people call her FemThor because of the video game habit like referring to the Mass Effect protagonist FemShep and DudeShep. It's not subtext. It's literally text, in her first issue, that she's Thor, not lady Thor, not new Thor, not femThor, but loving Thor. I should probably dig up the panels where Aaron (fairly heavy-handedly actually) goes "No, stop using dumb descriptors, she's loving Thor, the guy with the metal arm who's not wielding Mjolnir is Not Thor, his name is Odinson" which is a stylistic choice virtually all books that use the Odinson since have subscribed to and that Aaron most certainly does within the bounds of Mighty Thor. To me it's a much cleaner clarification than having to use "FosThor" which is a dumb word anyways, but when you use "Thor" and "Odinson" people think they're synonymous words when Aaron goes out of his way to explain the difference. But whatever.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:37
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Trast posted:Is the general accepted way to identify the characters who have been or are Thor right now to call Jane Foster "Thor" and the asgardian formerly known as Thor "Odinson?" I imagine a lot of people call her FemThor because of the video game habit like referring to the Mass Effect protagonist FemShep and DudeShep. That's certainly why I do it. It's an easy shorthand. WickedHate posted:To be fair, that relationship could work, but it's rarely written well. Especially in the Harley ongoing, which was just incredibly dumb and cringy while trying to "fix" the issue. I'm fine with sexists getting told to gently caress off, I just want it done well and in a un-terrible fashion. Using internet memes for dialogue (usually as a way to be "hip") is pretty lame, and I'm not interested in seeing internet drama recreated in brightly colored funnybooks, mostly because internet drama consists of several different sides jerking each other off. That's tiresome. Sexism from men is something I face in everyday life. If it's done in a heavy handed fashion in fiction than that's not enjoyable, it's just eye-rolly.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:43
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