UKMT July 2016 - Thank you very much. Do doooooo do do. Right.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT July 2016 - Thank you very much. Do doooooo do do. Right.

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Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

wocobob posted:

Okay, another ignorant American backstory question:

Why are the Lib Dems seen as so ineffectual? What big fuckup did they have that destroyed their reputation? Is it related to why Nick Clegg is seen as pretty much a joke?

And in addition to the comments upthread a few posts. They did this, sold out everything they were supposed to believe in to get a referendum on replacing 'First past the post' with an altenative vote scheme whose details you can look up but aren't really relevant here.

Naturally everyone either voted against it, or used it as a protest vote against the now widely despised party. It lost by a margin of better than two to one.

Thus sealing their image as not merely lying weasels, but incompetent lying weasels.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:23

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 19:16

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Oberleutnant posted:

Bumham's stint in the Sun cab is remarkable because he used to play up his scouse cred by refusing to give them interviews and stuff iirc.

Fundamentally, Burnham represents the worst of New Labour: vapid image politics. He'll take any political position for the sole purpose to make himself look good. He was culture secretary for fifteen months before he got heckled at the Hillsborough 20th anniversary service, and only then he asked for the inquiry. He was completely for Labour's privatisation of the NHS while he was in Health, then turned on a sixpence to oppose the same plans he helped get off the ground as a Cabinet minister.

That said, he's smart enough to know which way's the wind blowing, hence why he's one of the few people in the PLP not to stir the pot over Corbyn.

Jose posted:

lol is this what tintower has been bringing up for months when posting about burnham?

I'm not sure almost being sued for smearing one of the country's most respected civil liberties campaigners to the point of nearly being sued is "lol", to be honest.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:24

Forgall: Oct 16, 2012; by Azathoth

wocobob posted:

Okay, another ignorant American backstory question:

Why are the Lib Dems seen as so ineffectual? What big fuckup did they have that destroyed their reputation? Is it related to why Nick Clegg is seen as pretty much a joke?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkPyhcW5b7k

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:25

josh04: Oct 19, 2008; "THE FLASH IS THE REASON
TO RACE TO THE THEATRES"
_{This title contains sponsored content.}

In retrospect, the AV referendum brought back the whole horrible idea of putting down populist policies by putting them to a highly divisive vote between two imperfect options.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:29

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

josh04 posted:

a highly divisive vote between two imperfect options.

to be fair, see also Pretty Much Every UK General Election

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:31

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Has there ever been a referendum on a significant issue anywhere that was a good idea? The best I can say about the few Canadian referenda I remember is that at least most of them didn't gently caress things up too bad -- but some of them did. I don't think a referendum has ever managed to make something better.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:32

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

PT6A posted:

Has there ever been a referendum on a significant issue anywhere that was a good idea? The best I can say about the few Canadian referenda I remember is that at least most of them didn't gently caress things up too bad -- but some of them did. I don't think a referendum has ever managed to make something better.

The Good Friday Agreement.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:33

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Angepain posted:

to be fair, see also Pretty Much Every UK General Election

Nah that's an � la carte of bastards

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:33

josh04: Oct 19, 2008; "THE FLASH IS THE REASON
TO RACE TO THE THEATRES"
_{This title contains sponsored content.}

Angepain posted:

to be fair, see also Pretty Much Every UK General Election

Well, for most of my life they weren't that divisive. Elections were just Labour winning against a series of increasingly grotesque Tories.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:33

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

PT6A posted:

Has there ever been a referendum on a significant issue anywhere that was a good idea? The best I can say about the few Canadian referenda I remember is that at least most of them didn't gently caress things up too bad -- but some of them did. I don't think a referendum has ever managed to make something better.

Legalising gay marriage in Ireland.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:34

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Although I guess that depends on your perspective of whether gay people should have rights...

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:35

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Tesseraction posted:

Legalising gay marriage in Ireland.

Oh, I did forget about that one!

Still, it seems like every referendum at best does something that an elected government could do, and at worst either binds or advises that elected government into doing something extremely stupid.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:38

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

wocobob posted:

Okay, another ignorant American backstory question:

Why are the Lib Dems seen as so ineffectual? What big fuckup did they have that destroyed their reputation? Is it related to why Nick Clegg is seen as pretty much a joke?

1) coalition with the Tories in 2010, which led to

2) tuition fees hike being one of the horses traded off, despite a pledge not to increase tuition fees being a major Lib Dem electoral plank,

3) in part because Clegg personally disliked the party line, and saw coalition government as a convenient basis upon which to veto line-items in the party manifesto

if this seems a little odd, you have to consider the degree to which insurgent Liberal Democrats of the 2000s attacked Labour as too hypocritically centralist, too unwilling to compromise, and too transparently cynical'

it has to be accepted that the UK is not New Zealand and - even discounting the electoral system - a small, nimble third party cannot bank on supporters empathizing with tradeoffs. People live in their own bubbles. In large polities, mobilization matters much more.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:39

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

PT6A posted:

Has there ever been a referendum on a significant issue anywhere that was a good idea? The best I can say about the few Canadian referenda I remember is that at least most of them didn't gently caress things up too bad -- but some of them did. I don't think a referendum has ever managed to make something better.

Not many. Good outcomes of referenda are fairly rare. Representative democracies work because most people have lives and aren't interested or capable of devoting the time and effort necessary to make good decisions on complicated political issues. Hence the representative, who is "hired" to devote his time to doing those things and making good decisions on the public's behalf.

Fundamentally it's specialization of labor. There's a reason I don't mine my own iron ore, refine it, and cast it into a hammer. I leave it to other people who are better at it than me and I go buy one at the hardware store.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:40

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

ronya posted:

1) coalition with the Tories in 2010, which led to

2) tuition fees hike being one of the horses traded off, despite a pledge not to increase tuition fees being a major Lib Dem electoral plank,

3) in part because Clegg personally disliked the party line, and saw coalition government as a convenient basis upon which to veto line-items in the party manifesto

if this seems a little odd, you have to consider the degree to which insurgent Liberal Democrats of the 2000s attacked Labour as too hypocritically centralist, too unwilling to compromise, and too transparently cynical'

The lovely Lib Dem campaign last year was orchestrated by Clegg's inner circle, and a lot of party members were understandably upset.

And then the LD's director of communications then went on to head the Remain campaign. :negative:

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:43

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

Tesseraction posted:

Legalising gay marriage in Ireland.

only well after it already had overwhelming parliamentary support by all four parties, with even the Church carefully gauging public sentiment and only Irish Muslims daring to stick their heads over the parapet for a right to discriminate

the lesson here is to either not require referendums to approve overwhelming amendments, or not require amendments just to overturn case law

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:43

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Lethal Drizzle posted:

How do you "almost sue" someone?

She threatened to sue him so he wrote an apology saying it was part of the political cut and thrust, politicians should be allowed to use emotive and colourful language to make a point, but that he was sorry for causing offence. After receiving the apology she didn't sue him.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:43

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

ronya posted:

only well after it already had overwhelming parliamentary support by all four parties, with even the Church carefully gauging public sentiment and only Irish Muslims daring to stick their heads over the parapet for a right to discriminate

the lesson here is to either not require referendums to approve overwhelming amendments, or not require amendments just to overturn case law

well yes but I was providing an example of a good referendum

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:50

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Tesseraction posted:

well yes but I was providing an example of a good referendum

It's a referendum with a good result, that's different from a good referendum, assuming the result could have been achieved without the referendum (my knowledge of Irish constitutional law is non-existent).

The Quebexit referendum ended up being a good referendum too, insofar as voters picked the sane choice, but giving them that choice in the first place was probably a massive mistake.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:53

StoneOfShame: Jul 28, 2013; This is the best kitchen ever.

TinTower posted:

The Good Friday Agreement.

Yeah this is the best answer, great legislation supported by the majority that helped secure peace after years of horrors, not really anything bad about it.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:55

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

# ? Jul 1, 2016 16:58

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

PT6A posted:

Has there ever been a referendum on a significant issue anywhere that was a good idea? The best I can say about the few Canadian referenda I remember is that at least most of them didn't gently caress things up too bad -- but some of them did. I don't think a referendum has ever managed to make something better.

Scottish devolution referendum was good.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:04

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

StoneOfShame posted:

Yeah this is the best answer, great legislation supported by the majority that helped secure peace after years of horrors, not really anything bad about it.

Apart from the whole 'allowing murderers to go unpunished' thing. I do think it was an awesome agreement on balance, but there were certainly downsides.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:05

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

forkboy84 posted:

Scottish devolution referendum was good.

Well, the second one, anyway

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:06

ShaneMacGowansTeeth: May 22, 2007; I think this is it... I think this is how it ends

A re-post probably, but the lack of any form of awareness is terrifying

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/748883945325027329

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:10

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

Tesseraction posted:

I'm laughing like an idiot and there's no way I can explain to anyone else in the room.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:11

Extreme0: Feb 28, 2013; I dance to the sweet tune of your failure so I'm never gonna stop fucking with you.

Continue to get confused and frustrated with me as I dance to your anger.

As I expect nothing more from ya you stupid runt!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...4b0b320cf128772

quote:

Michael Gove�s clear hint that he could scrap the Barnett formula, the Treasury system which fixes Scotland�s budget, and change the fiscal framework under the Scotland Act has brought a furious response from the Scottish National party.

Mike Russell, a long-serving Scottish government minister and now convenor of Holyrood�s finance committee, has accused Gove of threatening to rip up a deal only recently signed by the UK government, to guarantee a fair funding deal for Holyrood to underpin Scotland�s new tax raising powers.

That deal, the fiscal framework, was agreed in February after some intense and bitter negotiating between the two governments, where the deal came to the brink of collapse.

�It�s absolutely outrageous that a prospective prime minister is now using a Leave vote to imply that Scotland�s budget could be slashed � just months after the Tories agreed a new financial settlement for Scotland,� Russell said.

At his Tory leadership campaign launch, Gove said he saw the Brexit vote as a �chance to renew and reboot the union. I think we need to explore how we can develop a fairly funded, flexible and robust union for our new circumstances � and I will work across political divides, with respect, to build that new union.�

Despite�s Gove pledge to work �across political divides� on any new deal, his implied threat to cut Holyrood�s funding will very quickly fuel demands for a second Scottish independence vote, and widen the gulf between Scottish and English voters.

Russell said all Tory leadership candidates should publicly pledge to honour the fiscal framework agreement since earlier this year by George Osborne, the chancellor, and he urged Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, to �condemn these undemocratic factions within her own party looking for any excuse to hammer Scotland�.

Angepain posted:

Well, the second one, anyway

Well the First one was more at fault with that Labour MP putting a loving 40% threshold needed.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:12

Loving Africa Chaps: Dec 3, 2007; We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.

Who cares about Scotland, what do people think of pinsents decision not to restart the Cambridge Berkeley race in the visitors?

Loving Africa Chaps fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jul 1, 2016

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:15

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Extreme0 posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...4b0b320cf128772

Good news for Wales if Barnett goes, but it won't help the IndyRef2 Remain campaign!

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:15

HJB: Feb 16, 2011; I can't get enough of are Dan

Meant to post this earlier:

https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/748792135592194048

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:16

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

"Look, we cannot solve this situation by loving the poor, we need an actual answer."

"We just don't have enough poors to gently caress, we'll make more poors."

*the Eye of Sauron slowly turns towards Scotland*

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:17

Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

Ah yes, not the Irish then. It's the Scots who will become the enemy of peace.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:20

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Extreme0 posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...4b0b320cf128772

Well the First one was more at fault with that Labour MP putting a loving 40% threshold needed.

I'm angry that that sort of threshold wasn't used for the EU referendum to be honest.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:22

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Loving Africa Chaps posted:

Who cares about Scotland, what do people think of pinsents decision not to restart the Cambridge Berkeley race in the visitors?

Cambridge steered straight for the booms under no pressure, idiots.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:23

VanSandman: Feb 16, 2011; SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

Why are all of your political cartoons grotesques?

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:28

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Deptfordx posted:

Ah yes, not the Irish then. It's the Scots who will become the enemy of peace.

What have those moochers ever done for us? OUR TAXPAYER MONEY is going straight to those leec :barf:

sorry I couldn't even finish that

I mean I know loving Scotland is a proud national British pastime, but I don't think this sudden "piss the Scots off so we can more easily scapegoat them" is going to work as well as they think it will, especially with Scotland chomping at the bit to leave that dumpster fire.

It's remarkable how consistently these morons make decisions without a single second of forethought.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:29

Not Operator: Jan 1, 2009; Not A doctor, THE Doctor!

VanSandman posted:

Why are all of your political cartoons grotesques?

Art should reflect life?

vv Also what this guy said. Bojo's hair has never looked that good in real life.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:29

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

VanSandman posted:

Why are all of your political cartoons grotesques?

Because those in the cartoons are about five times as grotesque as the pictures.

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:29

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

VanSandman posted:

Why are all of your political cartoons grotesques?

To best reflect their subjects.

forkboy84 posted:

I'm angry that that sort of threshold wasn't used for the EU referendum to be honest.

There's no real point on having a threshold for a purely advisory referendum. Now, whether anyone believes it was actually purely advisory or not...

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:30

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 19:16

EvilGenius: May 2, 2006; Death to the Black Eyed Peas

Sorry for being dumb, but I don't really understand why Gove running meant Boris couldn't. Was it simply that they couldn't have two Brexit candidates?

# ? Jul 1, 2016 17:34

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT July 2016 - Thank you very much. Do doooooo do do. Right.

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