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Berious posted:It was close in 2015 though and that's before the Tories blew up the economy and probably ended the union. Cameron could gently caress one of the Queen's corgies while pledging allegiance to Satan on the 10 o clock news and Labour would still be behind in the polls. We're probably in for another 10 dreary years of Tory rule before Labour remembers again that England is pretty right wing and Labour needs to be centrist to actually have a chance of getting in and doing any good or at least to stop the Conservatives from doing harm for a bit. The tories nearly didn't get an absolute majority. It was a fair way off close however. There's also the issue of even if centrists did win, what are they going to do? A centrist by definition tries to appeal to everyone and takes their cues from what they see around them. So we'd have a government elected during an upswing of xenophobia and a continued belief that austerity is helpful, but, maybe we shouldn't go full nazi or cut quite as much off public spending. So, we get a government unwilling to really commit to anything, unwilling to invest to kick start the economy, and unwilling to challenge the idea that maybe immigrants aren't actually the problem with the country. Then in five or ten years people, as they did with Blair, get sick of the government that's run out of places to deflect their blame to and whose policies of deregulation and liberal economics have only worsened things for the public, and then they elect the Tory right or UKIP. We require a government committed to reversing the damage of the last several decades. If we are to retain a decent government into the future. As well as possibly one who ends the idiotic principle of parliamentary sovereignty so that the tories can't burn down the drat country every time they get into power. The Labour Center haven't even an ounce of political originality among them, the are not equipped to do that.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:08
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Antti posted:The PLP will not be lead by a socialist. I don't think there's a magical unicorn politician who can have left-wing positions acceptable to both the membership and the PLP. You need to at the very least make sure the power of nomination isn't solely within the PLP. I was mainly referring to his ability to, well play politics in the media, attack the Tories when the opportunity arises, appear on the right programmes, come up with some bloody sound bites, etc. I get that he shouldn't have to, but he does, and he's not going to change that. As far as the resignations and the PLP go, they need to get on board or get the gently caress out. The Labour membership have given a clear message as to what they want from the party, and I support Corbyn fighting for that. I hope here succeeds, things settle down, and he can find a personality that can win a general election. EvilGenius fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 2, 2016 10:09
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In case I'm not being clear enough, your argument for voting for a faction of labour with a nativism streak is that they're the only ones who can fight the nativists.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:14
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NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:This thread will become a lot easier for you to understand once you grasp that 'Blairite' is often used as shorthand for "believer in the concept that most working class voters are aspirational would-be entrepreneurs who feel held back by old-fashioned left wing politics, and so any party seeking electoral victory must at all costs gravitate towards a pro-business liberal center". This belief was largely true in the 90s when Blair was coming up, but is very much a product of it's era. It doesn't hold up so well in a time where Cool Britannia has been replaced by war, recession and food banks where the working classes are more worried about surviving then succeeding. When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
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Jul 2, 2016 10:18
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Yeah man when has an ideology or attitude ever been named after the person who made it famous.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:20
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Cerv posted:When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” It's hardly reaching to connect the more recent political approach of Labour which surged under Blair with the man himself.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:20
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How can you call yourself a Maoist? I bet you've never even met him.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:21
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I believe your words will mean whatever is reported. Accuracy and fact-checking are unnecessary in a post-facts society.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:22
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XMNN posted:not gonna lie I would have considered voting for someone who wasn't as left wing but might not be undermined by the plp so constantly and counterproductively at one point Seriously. If they'd just challenged for leadership by putting forward a challenger, I might have actually considered the unity candidate. Now though, gently caress them, deselect the drat lot of them (the former shad cab, particularly, less so all 172 non-confidents, I suspect there's a wider bullying issue going on with some of the less well known back benchers). If they can't compromise and they can't behave like grown-ups, they don't deserve to be paid £75000 (or 75E  ) per year to fail to run our loving country because they're too busy planning to ignore democratic processes.FUndamentally though my real point is the one in Ober's post in the OP. It's far better to try to win from the left and risk losing because of a lack of 'electability' (a nebulous concept at best when there's a wide feeling of disenfranchisement among the younger generations who've never felt listened to because establishment politics can't be bothered to do the actual work necessary to court their votes) than to take the abominable risk of dragging this country inexorably further right by running a stuffed-shirt centrist who's young and go-getting and electable but spouts terrible non-policies of 'like the Tories but slightly less so'. That strategy only serves to drag the country further to the right, further towards outright fascists winning major power, further into small-minded separatist racism and xenophobia at a time when the country and the world desperately needs global co-operation and unity. I elaborate more here, I'm not going to go on too much. (Some ideas may be stolen from Ober, I hope he doesn't mind too much) thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 2, 2016 10:22
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Blairite means 90s neoliberal, thatcherite/reaganite mean 80s neoliberal how's that hard?
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Jul 2, 2016 10:23
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Watson is clearly not a blairite in policy and I've never heard him called one, he's just agaonst Corbyn Corbyn is possibly the only senior politician running on a grand platform of actually attempting to understand economics until someone else appears he's all we have and if you somehow think this is a personality or cult movement you're an actual cretin
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Jul 2, 2016 10:26
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thespaceinvader posted:a nebulous concept at best when there's a wide feeling of disenfranchisement among the younger generations who've never felt listened to because establishment politics can't be bothered to do the actual work necessary to court their votes Hope you're not basing your electoral hopes on the 1/3 of younger voters who could be bothered to turn out for a once in a generation referendum.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:27
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thespaceinvader posted:I elaborate more https://here You did a bad
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Jul 2, 2016 10:28
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Gort posted:You did a bad I fixed the bad. Thanks.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:32
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Berious posted:Hope you're not basing your electoral hopes on the 1/3 of younger voters who could be bothered to turn out for a once in a generation referendum. I'm basing it on the idea that the referendum might have been a kick up the arse for them to realise this poo poo is important, and on the fact that Corbyn appealed well to a younger generation. I know, I know, hope is a mistake. But as noted, it would be better to lose from the left and force the political discussion to actually include the left as a result (an election being basically the only time that the media are forced to give the leaders of the parties a voice if they don't want to) then to run from the right and further convince the nation that racism and xenophobia are appropriate responses to lovely government policies just because the government lies and blames brown people. E: on another note, I wonder if what the left needs is a Farage figure. No, hear me out. The reason the Tories can get away with so much in the way of lying about immigration and brown people is because Farage is out there doing much, much worse. Jeremy Corbyn's views are really not that extreme on the left when viewed against the wider political spectrum, but they seem extreme to people who've spent 30 years listening to politics which are at best centrist, so they can easily be reported and denigrated as extreme left wing, loony lefty, and so forth. Maybe what we need is a famous and populist socialist willing to take a lot of flack from the right and get a lot of press by loudly lying about the benefits of full anarcho-communism now on the breakfast shows for the papers to hate on, so that the likes of Corbyn (and the greens and so on) can seem reasonable. Not sure how to accomplish it, but it feels like it might help. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 2, 2016 10:36
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The politburo takes issue with your suggestion that it is possible to misrepresent the benefits of full communism, comrade.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:51
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jul/02/brexit-news-live-thousands-march-for-europe-in-post-referendum-protest March for europe starting in london now.
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Jul 2, 2016 11:06
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They should call them Fay Pride Parades.
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Jul 2, 2016 11:13
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Berious posted:...someone who'll run on a platform of pissing off johnny foreigner and gently caress the consequences.
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Jul 2, 2016 11:27
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Guavanaut posted:Which means that if the 1707 Act of Union were to be invalidated, it would fall down to the 1603 Union of the Crowns before the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Union of the Crowns was actual legislation, as such. James just happened to be next in line to the throne. There was no constitutional change or Act of Parliament or anything.
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Jul 2, 2016 12:01
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Berious posted:Hope you're not basing your electoral hopes on the 1/3 of younger voters who could be bothered to turn out for a once in a generation referendum. There's a lot more behind low youth turnout more than "younguns lazy", you know.
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Jul 2, 2016 12:09
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feedmegin posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Union of the Crowns was actual legislation, as such. James just happened to be next in line to the throne. There was no constitutional change or Act of Parliament or anything. Funnily enough, the case was prompted by fears in Westminster that English jobs would be threatened by all the poor people in the realm of Scotland. Nothing ever changes as we are always poo poo. thespaceinvader posted:Not sure how to accomplish it, but it feels like it might help.
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Jul 2, 2016 12:12
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Berious posted:Someone who is thoughtful and measured wouldn't have said staying in the EU means unlimited immigration and that the EU was lovely to Greece while allegedly campaigning for Remain. Leave were making tons of hay with that interview just days before the referendum. Either Corbs was stealth campaigning for Leave or he's got a complete tin ear to how the stuff he says will be spun. Agreed. Corbs should have gone on about how the EU is a perfect flawless gem just like David Cameron did. Just look how ol' Necroporker rallied his voters around Remain.
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Jul 2, 2016 12:13
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Cerebral Bore posted:Agreed. Corbs should have gone on about how the EU is a perfect flawless gem just like David Cameron did. Just look how ol' Necroporker rallied his voters around Remain. Farage, meanwhile, shouted and gesticulated his way to victory because people are thick as poo poo.
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Jul 2, 2016 12:35
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Tories try to copy the PLP - http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/senior-tories-plotting-bring-quick-end-leadership-contest/ They are trying to engineer it so that May wins outright so it doesn't go to the membership, as they must be worried her evilness Leadsom will win if it went to the wider party.
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Jul 2, 2016 12:35
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EvilGenius posted:Sorry if this is a bit of a 'no poo poo Sherlock' post, but people are talking as though a Corbyn leadership is a requirement for a left Labour party. No, people really aren't. Just because people aren't mentioning it in literally every post doesn't mean it hasn't been mentioned & agreed about a dozen times a day for the past week. Some really tedious posters like to think the whole thing is the Cult of Corbyn, but it's really not. It's just fact that until Corbyn can change the rules on nomination of Labour Party, Corbyn is the only left-wing candidate who will get enough nominations from the PLP. So either the Labour left just totally gives up the party back to the right after less than 1 year and no real time to fix the rules. Which would be a total loving waste of time. Berious posted:Someone who is thoughtful and measured wouldn't have said staying in the EU means unlimited immigration and that the EU was lovely to Greece while allegedly campaigning for Remain. Leave were making tons of hay with that interview just days before the referendum. Either Corbs was stealth campaigning for Leave or he's got a complete tin ear to how the stuff he says will be spun. But the EU was lovely to Greece & staying in the EU does mean free movement of people. So you are saying that it is a necessity for our politicians to lie, because we expect them to lie even though nobody trusts politicians anymore because they all lie compulsively? Mmmm, if only there was an alternative, like not lying, treating voters like sentient human beings maybe. Yeah, that's definitely the answer to massive alienation from politics, just keep doing what's ended up with people having no faith in politics. You've really thought this through, much like you've clearly considered who the right man (or woman) to replace Corbyn is, anybody but Corbyn. Yes. NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:Yeah, I'm struggling to see how "yes the EU is flawed and in need of reform but on balance we are all better off staying in and working at that reform from the inside" isn't thoughtful and measured. It just didn't work. It's because "he didn't say what I wanted him to say". TinTower posted:There's a lot more behind low youth turnout more than "younguns lazy", you know. Is that Andy Burnham's fault too?
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Jul 2, 2016 12:36
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https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/749147973876080640 https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/749147770691457024 an overwhelming majority of leave voters think it would be a good idea to wipe 12% off the tax take and sacrifice 2m+ jobs so they don't have to see a polski sklep in their town
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Jul 2, 2016 12:44
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LemonDrizzle posted:https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/749147973876080640 They don't know what the "single market" is. They probably have trouble comprehending 2 million people. The level of stupidity we're dealing with requires bodies in the streets and everything on fire before they'll realise that things are bad.
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Jul 2, 2016 12:47
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LemonDrizzle posted:https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/749147973876080640 let's have a referendum about it
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Jul 2, 2016 12:48
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http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/labour-deputy-leader-tom-watson-11554791#ICID=sharebar_twitterquote:Labour deputy leader Tom Watson cancels appearance at Durham Miners' Gala What? Why the gently caress would he do tha- quote:A statement issued by the Durham Miners’ Association today said: “We have been informed by Tom Watson, Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, that due to his father’s illness he regrets that he will not be able to attend this year’s Gala. Oh... 
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Jul 2, 2016 12:52
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LemonDrizzle posted:https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/749147973876080640 Honestly the UK should split. Civilised Kingdom of Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Bits of England and Wales including all of the Coast. Perpetual Land-Locked Dumpster Fire of Inland Wales, the North, and the Midlands.
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Jul 2, 2016 12:54
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:Honestly the UK should split.
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Jul 2, 2016 12:59
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blowfish posted:Honestly the UK should split. I spend time in lancarshire and I live in kent there is nothing civilised down here. Just inbreeding. The coasts are bad.
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Jul 2, 2016 12:59
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NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:Yeah, I'm struggling to see how "yes the EU is flawed and in need of reform but on balance we are all better off staying in and working at that reform from the inside" isn't thoughtful and measured. It just didn't work. It's not even that, it's the idea that Corbs somehow sabotaged the Remain campaign by not claiming that the EU can have no flaw. In an election where most voters voted Leave this approach seems pretty loving unlikely to have given bigger dividends in Remain votes than acknowledging that the EU is flawed but reformable into something better. It's a complete nonsense argument, and I'd dismiss it as another example of generic Corbyn Bad stuff if it weren't for the fact that some people seem to believe it sincerely.
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Jul 2, 2016 13:01
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blowfish posted:Honestly the UK should split. The most racist bits are the coastal bits though. Also extrapolating those figures then 1/3rd of the population is likely so racist they want to see the economy burn. Also large chunks / most of the north were about 50/50 in the vote. The leave areas were Coastal or the Midlands. Edit: Just checked and most of the Northern towns (e.g. Burnley, Wakefield, Rotherham, Doncaster) were overwhelmingly leave - but all the areas away from the coast which aren't a major town went around 50/50. ukle fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 2, 2016 13:05
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https://twitter.com/gove2018/status/748823838285266944 https://twitter.com/gove2018/status/748928164433391616
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Jul 2, 2016 13:06
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The East coast is the one that bears the brunt of immigration, I can promise you they want none of it.
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Jul 2, 2016 13:07
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HJB posted:The East coast is the one that bears the brunt of immigration, I can promise you they want none of it. 
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Jul 2, 2016 13:09
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But only old swivel-eye gits live in the coastal areas? e: beaten
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Jul 2, 2016 13:11
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As in goes through, not stays. I'm aware of the facts, even if they are from so-called experts.
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Jul 2, 2016 13:12
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