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So your argument is that because people outside of the EU do not have the rights that the EU member states have negotiated among themselves, nobody should have those rights? Would you make the same argument for the single market as well? Any other treaties you think are unfair because they don't include the whole world?
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Jul 4, 2016 11:41
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qhat posted:My point is it's difficult to argue that freedom of movement is a bad thing from a leftist viewpoint because you have to concede that wealth inequality on an international level is an acceptable state of affairs. I'm not sure about that. For the same reasons we can't go round toppling dictators and liberating oppressed masses around the world, we can't solve international wealth equality through policy. We can address it nationally, sure, but quickly we are way, way beyond my argument on free movement of labour within the EU not being desirable as it is arguably discriminatory against non-eu nationals for no good reason at all.
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Jul 4, 2016 11:46
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botany posted:So your argument is that because people outside of the EU do not have the rights that the EU member states have negotiated among themselves, nobody should have those rights? Would you make the same argument for the single market as well? Any other treaties you think are unfair because they don't include the whole world? Actually the suggestion was to negotiate free movement with individual countries instead of just the EU, which is apparently different somehow
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Jul 4, 2016 11:48
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botany posted:So your argument is that because people outside of the EU do not have the rights that the EU member states have negotiated among themselves, nobody should have those rights? Would you make the same argument for the single market as well? Any other treaties you think are unfair because they don't include the whole world? My whole point to begin with was 'it is entirely possible to be against free movement of labour within the EU for non-racist reasons, the highjacking of Brexit by the immigration issue was unfortunate for all sides'. No of course I would not make the same argument for the single market, and yes, Versailles  .
jiggerypokery fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 11:49
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Supporting Leave because you thought it might result in easier immigration for non-EU people is like voting No to AV in an attempt to express that you'd like a different voting system, just not that one. Or more directly, it's wishing on a monkey paw for "anyone in the world to be able to migrate to Britain as easily as EU citizens". Congratulations! It's an equally huge ballache for everyone now! (assuming we do in fact lose free movement)
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Jul 4, 2016 11:56
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Why does Leadsom have such a hardon for the third runway at Heathrow?
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Jul 4, 2016 11:58
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Baron Corbyn posted:Nah. The chicken coup plotters have given Corbyn more time to consider his position. Polly Toynbee says their challenger has to be Angela Eagle and not Owen Smith because Welsh people aren't allowed to be Prime Minister. Andrea Leadsom is basically a stereotypical American republican. Polly Toynbee, of course, is an unbias commentator with good form on judging the outcome of Labour leadership elections. 
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Jul 4, 2016 12:03
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Man have I been binging on all the Mark Blythe lectures I can find on Youtube, he's able to articulate on all the stuff I suspected about austerity but didn't know enough to actually argue against. I think my two favourite quotes from him are describing austerity as "sado-economics" and calling the centre-left parties in Europe the second rate enforcers of a creditor's paradise, since all they are doing is calling for austerity while pulling a frowny face.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:08
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jiggerypokery posted:My whole point to begin with was 'it is entirely possible to be against free movement of labour within the EU for non-racist reasons, the highjacking of Brexit by the immigration issue was unfortunate for all sides'. No of course I would not make the same argument for the single market, and yes, Versailles Of course it's possible, but people are talking about what actually happened. Economic conditions drive people's anger and they're told to blame the EU and immigrants for their situation and the collapse of public services and the welfare state - that scapegoating and scaremongering is racist and funnily enough so are the attitudes it generates. A generalised hostility against an other, with wild claims about all the terrible things THEY are causing and no nuance about people's individual situations, just treating anyone who  isn't British as someone complicit to be blamedWe've had people with swastika tattoos on the news making the same argument saying "it's not racist", we've got some idiot in here talking about foreigners moving in next door and changing the tone of the neighbourhood and affecting house prices, the window has shifted and this poo poo absolutely needs calling out so it doesn't become normalised and acceptable. Maybe it was a bad idea during the vote as a way of convincing people, but now there isn't a single decision riding on pandering to public opinion, dropping the subject is the opposite of what should happen. And yeah, there should be some nuance and pointing the finger at the real causes of people's problems (this government and its austerity), but people are getting attacked over this and it needs shutting down
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Jul 4, 2016 12:10
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https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/749919421515309056 https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/749920364768133120
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Jul 4, 2016 12:11
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Oh god, the Tories are going to hold a quick leadership contest, then immediately call a snap election, while Labour are flailing around incoherently ripping chunks off each other. How is it possible that by far the largest political party in the UK has such a bunch of idiots in Parliament? I bet they won't even have got the message that austerity's done with. I fully expect to see various grey-faced Labour spokespeople wittering nervously on about "tough spending decisions", as the Tories go wild on promises of major infrastructure projects and investing in the nation's future.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:12
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They're not going to call an election. The Tories are going to be understandably wary of calling votes they were sure they'd win.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:14
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The best left-wing argument "against" freedom of movement is presumably along the lines of "unfettered freedom of movement causes a backlash that, in democratic countries, puts the cause back enormously. That means it's better to gradually loosen the restrictions on movement over a period of decades so that people can get used to the idea, as well as carefully managing the impacts by diverting extra cash to the places whose populations are rising the fastest, whilst also having a strong and generous welfare state so that anyone who does lose out directly can be retrained and work found in other areas". In other words if you go slowly you'll get there eventually whereas if you go too fast you risk blowing the whole thing up. Of course that's not really an argument against freedom of movement per se as much as a tactical argument about how you implement it.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:15
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LemonDrizzle posted:https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/749919421515309056 We have entered an era where political correspondents are talking about "megalols".
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Jul 4, 2016 12:15
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The tory's probably think it's in their interests to keep Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the opposition
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Jul 4, 2016 12:16
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Also we've got the Fixed Parliament act now remember. They either need 2/3rds of the support of the house to call an election or to lose a vote of confidence.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:16
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qhat posted:The tory's probably think it's in their interests to keep Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the opposition They do. Cameron said so at the last PMQs.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:18
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Pissflaps posted:They do. Cameron said so at the last PMQs. And if there's a guy who knows which way the wind is blowing it's Dave "I promise a simple in/out referendum" Cameron
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Jul 4, 2016 12:20
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Honorary British
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Jul 4, 2016 12:20
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jiggerypokery posted:Let me present this as a leftist argument against free-movement of labour. Where are you really going with this? At the core of the argument, right at the core is the idea that if your mother popped you out in a particular place it should affect your employment rights. I don't think it should matter at all, and after a lot of words I can't tell what your position is on this- You argue that it's a much smaller world and that proximity shouldn't matter but then turn it on it's head to state that we are socially/culturally/economically removed from people from other countries anyway. Migration isn't the problem, the problem is with how capitalism exploits the situation so that rather than labour organising for rights and challenging the system, some bastard just points at immigrants and says "it's all your fault conditions are poo poo and wages low" like if migration were stopped things would be fixed, and the bosses wouldn't just move onto the next scapegoat.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:20
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Fans posted:They're not going to call an election. The Tories are going to be understandably wary of calling votes they were sure they'd win. The new leader is going to have the same problem that Cameron had: with a tiny majority of 12, passing anything but the most insignificant and uncontroversial legislation is impossible. Going straight to the country with a new leader, a confident party boosted by the Brexit vote and with a divided and chaotic opposition is the best chance they'll ever have to gain an increased majority. I'll be amazed if the new leader doesn't immediately do this,
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Jul 4, 2016 12:22
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I note that Manchester itself strongly voted Remain.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:23
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Pistol_Pete posted:The new leader is going to have the same problem that Cameron had: with a tiny majority of 12, passing anything but the most insignificant and uncontroversial legislation is impossible. Going straight to the country with a new leader, a confident party boosted by the Brexit vote and with a divided and chaotic opposition is the best chance they'll ever have to gain an increased majority. I'll be amazed if the new leader doesn't immediately do this, I've yet to see any of the Contenders promise this. Theresa's even ruled it out and she's almost certain to win.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:24
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It would make sense for a Tory leadership candidate to declare no early election, even if they intended to call one, if only to calm more nervous marginal Tory MPs who might be put off voting for them in the contest.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:27
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Fans posted:I've yet to see any of the Contenders promise this. Theresa's even ruled it out and she's almost certain to win. Oh, I'm sure she's saying that now. Confirming that the leadership contest will be followed by a general election might concentrate minds in Labour and scare them into a united front and obviously she doesn't want that.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:28
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baka kaba posted:Of course it's possible, but people are talking about what actually happened. Economic conditions drive people's anger and they're told to blame the EU and immigrants for their situation and the collapse of public services and the welfare state - that scapegoating and scaremongering is racist and funnily enough so are the attitudes it generates. A generalised hostility against an other, with wild claims about all the terrible things THEY are causing and no nuance about people's individual situations, just treating anyone who I agree completely. The EU needs to die a miserable death. The few areas it could be potent, i.e actually enforcing corporation tax, managing the refugee crisis and other super-national issues it fails miserably at. I mean, what the gently caress is Calais?! Instead of being the catalyst for solutions to these problems it just serves as a cosy retirement plan for MPs to go to be over-paid and enjoy the fruits of lobbying and in some cases more explicit forms of corruption. I particularly enjoy the ' In spite of holding these views, detesting the EU for it's failures and inherent flaws I had to vote remain for all the social reasons you state. I feel robbed of the chance to leave with dignity, and let down by Corbyn and the left who could have recovered the leave debate from the xenophobic non-argument it spiralled down to.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:30
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Pistol_Pete posted:Oh, I'm sure she's saying that now. Confirming that the leadership contest will be followed by a general election might concentrate minds in Labour and scare them into a united front and obviously she doesn't want that. I think it'd be pretty stupid move to promise you wouldn't call a GE and then immediately call one. Starting off your leadership with an clear lie isn't a great plan.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:31
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Fans posted:I've yet to see any of the Contenders promise this. Theresa's even ruled it out and she's almost certain to win. If there's one thing I can trust the Tories on it's to renege on a cast-iron promise.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:32
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Pissflaps posted:It would make sense for a Tory leadership candidate to declare no early election, even if they intended to call one, if only to calm more nervous marginal Tory MPs who might be put off voting for them in the contest. Yeah it would be electoral suicide (in the Tory leadership election) for a Tory candidate to declare they plan to call an early election, as it will divide potential voters. Odds are that an election will be called for sometime around the Winter. Labour really needs to get rid of Corbyn ASAP and get a new leader elected or else we can say hello to 5 more years of Tory rule that will be even more anti the public.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:32
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Polling today mirrors the 2015 GE result meaning Corbyn with most of his party actively rebelling against him is just as electable as Ed's middle ground approach with their full support was. Can't wait to let them get back to it.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:36
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ukle posted:Yeah it would be electoral suicide (in the Tory leadership election) for a Tory candidate to declare they plan to call an early election, as it will divide potential voters. Odds are that an election will be called for sometime around the Winter. Labour really needs to get rid of Corbyn ASAP and get a new leader elected or else we can say hello to 5 more years of Tory rule that will be even more anti the public. Even if Corbyn went today, turning Labour into a party that is in a position to win the next election is a big ask, whoever succeeds him.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:37
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DesperateDan posted:Where are you really going with this? Increasing domestic employment rights would have the knock-on effect of removing this sort of exploitative migration without putting up barbed wire at the borders though, but there's a lack of critical looking at the underlying systems when people simply point at the immigrants themselves. Same with denying trade to countries unless they implement certain labor rights as opposed to mere ranting about "foreign goods". It's not so much about "if your mother popped you out in a particular place" (I think you're referring to jus soli here) as about the nation-state being the main protection against both global and local exploitation that people historically had, so it has a lot of inertia in this area. There are alternatives, the trade union, the workers' council, the commune, etc., but each of those comes with their own exclusionary barriers for self preservation. We can generally agree that ethnic nationalism is bad and dumb and leads to bad things, it's more whether civic nationalism is a worthwhile pragmatic choice for protection against world market forces or whether it inevitably leads to Stalinism or the worst excesses of national socialism. (This is all purely hypothetical though, because what we will get is National Thatcherism where labor flows are only controlled for the benefit of capital, and capital flows are left uncontrolled because gently caress you.)
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Jul 4, 2016 12:39
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ukle posted:Yeah it would be electoral suicide (in the Tory leadership election) for a Tory candidate to declare they plan to call an early election, as it will divide potential voters. Odds are that an election will be called for sometime around the Winter. Labour really needs to get rid of Corbyn ASAP and get a new leader elected or else we can say hello to 5 more years of Tory rule that will be even more anti the public. Better invest in a 55 gallon barrel of lube then, because if we get an election this year then we're getting a right wing government no matter who wins.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:39
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Fans posted:Polling today mirrors the 2015 GE result meaning Corbyn with most of his party actively rebelling against him is just as electable as Ed's middle ground approach with their full support was. Can't wait to let them get back to it. More relevantly, polling today shows Labour far behind where they were at the same stage after 2010 (leading by between 5 and 10 points) which means that come polling day, Labour is heading for an absolute disaster.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:42
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Pissflaps posted:More relevantly, polling today shows
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Jul 4, 2016 12:46
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Wait, you mean the Chicken Coup has been delayed once again? Gosh, what smooth political operators.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:48
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Don't really care about polls 4 years out of a GE. If labour start losing byelections then okay maybe Corbyn needs to go.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:48
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qhat posted:Don't really care about polls. If labour start losing byelections then okay maybe Corbyn needs to go. So if a comfortable Tory seat was lost in a by-election you'd want Corbyn to go for it? That makes no sense.
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Jul 4, 2016 12:50
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DesperateDan posted:Where are you really going with this? My overall point is that lexit was robbed in the short term by a hideously ran campaign by both sides. Free-movement of labour within the EU prevents adopting a policy like prioritising refugees over EU nationals for unskilled labour immigration quotas/limits whatever. I agree it would be lovely if such limits weren't necessary but pragmatically I don't see how and thus 'free movement for everyone' is a non-starter. Therefore why have free movement for some based on their place of birth to the detriment of others with an inarguably greater need, i.e refugees?
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Jul 4, 2016 12:52
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Stop being pedantic you know what I'm talking about
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Jul 4, 2016 12:52
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