UKMT July 2016 - Thank you very much. Do doooooo do do. Right.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT July 2016 - Thank you very much. Do doooooo do do. Right.

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Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Gonzo McFee posted:

I asked you to clarify, you chose to imply I was drunk.

I was being charitable.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:06

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 16:01

GEORGE W BUSHI: Jul 1, 2012

Lads, let's stop fighting. It's Chilcott Eve. Tomorrow is the big day, when the war criminal Tony Blair is finally punished for his sins and Wales make it into the final of a major international tournament and I honestly can't believe that the latter is more likely to happen.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:08

Beefeater1980: Sep 12, 2008; My God, it's full of Horatios!

Re Leadsom, the civil service is absolutely fanatical about being apolitical. Obviously everyone has their political beliefs but leaking remains extremely rare by world standards.

If officials say, within the hearing of journalists, that Leadsom was a lovely loving minister, she was a *lovely loving minister*.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:12

Rakosi: May 5, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
NO-QUARTERMASTER

From the river (of Palestinian blood) to the sea (of Palestinian tears)

Spangly A posted:

there's no great irony about you still somehow not understanding the difference between positive and negative liberty

That's a complicated way of not being able to acceptably, morally explain wanting to disenfranchise old people from voting because of the amount of years they have lived lmao.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:17

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

So the Bank of England have said they're loosening capital requirements for banks, in the hopes that �150 billion could be "pumped into the economy" (ie lent to people).

I wonder if house prices might not fall after all. HOUSE PRICES MUST NEVER FALL

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:17

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

Rakosi posted:

That's a complicated way of not being able to acceptably, morally explain wanting to disenfranchise old people from voting because of the amount of years they have lived lmao.

If it helps i'll pretty openly admit they should be disenfranchised because they're terrible and stupid. If a generation of old people can prove that their brains haven't turned to mush once past 50 then they can be allowed to vote again.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:20

ShredsYouSay: Sep 22, 2011; How's his widow holding up?

Straight couples demanding civil partnerships are utterly daft.

The cp legislation is a copy paste of the marriage legislation, used to create "separate but equal" marriages for gay people.

Frankly cps should now just be abolished as there is no point to them any more. The only people who seem to want them are weird straight people who want to get married but don't like the word marriage.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:22

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

http://labourlist.org/2016/07/clive-lewis-and-jonathan-reynolds-it-is-time-for-labour-to-embrace-pr/

quote:

We stand on different sides of the convulsions the Labour Party is currently going through, but we are united in the belief that our political systems and culture must change. The Brexit referendum showed what happens when the electorate are given a vote that counts � they take it and use it � packing so much frustration into a decision that was nominally about Europe but clearly about so much more, not least the effects of globalisation on their lives. The contrast could not have been greater with general elections in the UK. Because of the First Past the Post voting system only a few swing voters in a few swing seats are listened to and many voices are never heard.

This combined with the increasingly diverse nature of the UK�s political landscape means that a shift to a proportional voting system is now an urgent imperative. The era of just two big parties representing the vast bulk of the country is over and we now see the pent up consequences of pretending that is still the case. We urge the Labour Party to lead the country towards a new politics of the 21st century by embracing proportional representation (PR).

But there is an immediate and obvious consequence of supporting PR, the politics of alliances. The divisions we now see in both main parties and the growing multitude of smaller parties means government even now under First Past The Post will increasingly be through alliances of political parties.

We welcome the formation of a progressive alliance of parties that understand without PR a more equal, democratic and sustainable society is less likely. Not least because the shift to the right we have witnessed over the last few weeks and the possible rise of an even more populist UKIP-style politics across the country demands a united and effective electoral response from all progressives.

nice to see some sense from labour MP's

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:22

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

How about we abolish marriage and just have civil partnerships? The only people who seem to want them are weird straight people who want a civil partnership but need it to be some weird religious ritual.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:23

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Regarde Aduck posted:

If it helps i'll pretty openly admit they should be disenfranchised because they're terrible and stupid. If a generation of old people can prove that their brains haven't turned to mush once past 50 then they can be allowed to vote again.

50 isn't old.

Regarde Aduck posted:

How about we abolish marriage and just have civil partnerships? The only people who seem to want them are weird straight people who want a civil partnership but need it to be some weird religious ritual.

Civil weddings have no religious element to them.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:23

Chocolate Teapot: May 8, 2009

Regarde Aduck posted:

How about we abolish marriage and just have civil partnerships? The only people who seem to want them are weird straight people who want a civil partnership but need it to be some weird religious ritual.

Marriage gives extra rights internationally, even if it's not "recognised" by the host state if things goes wrong.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:26

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...9oiS-Lw.twitter

quote:

Northern Ireland is not Lincolnshire or Somerset. It is a distinct and unique political entity, recognised as such by an international treaty registered with the United Nations: the Belfast Agreement of 1998.

Its people have a right to consent to the political arrangements by which they are governed � and they did not consent to being removed from the European Union.
It is thus the duty of the Government to make it clear to the British government that Northern Ireland cannot and must not be taken out of the EU against its will. Ireland must engage with the EU at every level to insist that Northern Ireland remain a part of the EU. This will be complex, but so is Northern Ireland.

The Brexiteers don�t give a drat about Northern Ireland. In fact, at least two of the leading candidates for leadership of the Tory party, including the woman who is most likely to be the next British prime minister, Theresa May, are actively hostile to the Belfast Agreement.

Michael Gove, who is what passes for the intellectual driving force behind Brexit, utterly despises the 1998 peace deal. In The Price of Peace, his long pamphlet for the right-wing Centre for Policy Studies, published in 2000, Gove characterised the entire peace process as nothing more than a capitulation to the IRA. He insisted that the cause of the Troubles was British lack of firmness in facing down demands for a united Ireland and argued that, if only British governments had taken a harder line, the IRA would have become discouraged and given up. This is idiocy but, like Gove�s Brexit theorems, dangerous idiocy.

Hitler analogies
In a foretaste of the Brexiteers� fondness for Hitler analogies, Gove likened the peace process to appeasement of the Nazis in the 1930s and, implicitly, compared himself to the brave anti-Nazis who defied conventional wisdom to speak the truth. However what�s most important to understand is that Gove�s paper epitomises a much deeper set of attitudes to Northern Ireland among what is now the controlling faction of the British ruling class. His arguments against the peace deal showed wilful ignorance of Irish history and of the Troubles � because his real concern was with the effect of the Belfast Agreement on British politics.

Democratic reform
What Gove was really worried about was that the Belfast Areement was, as he put it, �a Trojan horse� for democratic reform across the UK. It introduces proportional representation. Horrifically, �it enshrines a vision of human rights which privileges contending minorities at the expense of the democratic majority�. Even worse, �it offers social and economic rights�.

The core of Gove�s jeremiad is that the Belfast Agreement is a threat to the British system of government and law. Underlying this attack is a sense that it would be better to destroy the peace deal, at whatever cost to the people of Northern Ireland, than to allow this monstrosity to undermine a conservative vision of Britishness.
And, if we cut away the hysteria, Gove is right. The Belfast Agreement, with its support for multiple identities, contingent sovereignty and externally guaranteed human rights, makes Northern Ireland a very different kind of political space to the rest of the UK. It is indeed incompatible with the kind of English conservative vision that is now in the ascendant.

This perception, crucially, extends beyond Gove, who is not going to be the British prime minister who negotiates Brexit. That will probably be Theresa May. So what does May think of the Belfast Agreement? Her antipathy is quieter and less explicit, but she is essentially Govian. We know this because her signature political issue has been the scrapping of the UK�s Human Rights Act, ending the jurisdiction in the UK of the European Court of Human Rights.

And this is a straightforward intention to impugn the Belfast Agreement. In that agreement, the British government commits itself to �complete incorporation into Northern Ireland law of the European Convention on Human Rights, with direct access to the courts and remedies for breach of the convention, including power for the courts to overrule assembly legislation on the grounds of inconsistency�.

May�s intention is, in effect, to withdraw unilaterally from this international treaty commitment, thereby undermining British commitment to the agreement. Her reasoning is essentially the same as Gove�s: the Belfast Agreement contains concepts and commitments that are not compatible with the resurgent conservative vision of English law and governance.

Dismissive
In this new dispensation, the Belfast Agreement is a threat to the English nationalist agenda and its validity must be undermined. Ironically, the regime that is coming to power on the back of a referendum blithely dismisses the 1998 referendum in Northern Ireland that endorsed the peace deal. (Gove calls it �a rigged referendum�.) Equally, the majority against Brexit in Northern Ireland is of no consequence: against the whole spirit of the agreement, consent is irrelevant.

The Government has to speak very, very clearly about this: Northern Ireland is not an English shire but a distinct polity with a recognised right to determine its own future � within the EU.

We had decades of ~~terrorism~~ quiet gardening in Northern Ireland very much within living memory, but it is striking the degree to which it was hardly mentioned at all during the run-up to the referendum. They're in an even worse position than Scotland now. Is there going to be a hard border between the EU (the Republic) and the UK (the North?) Will we put the Army watchtowers back? How do we think that's going to go down if we do? What a loving mess.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:27

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

Breath Ray posted:

Got any screenshots of this?

Found it

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...n&ct=clnk&gl=uk

quote:

Her one-year stint from 2014-15 at the Treasury as City minister was seen inside 1 Horseguards Road as �a disaster� by one official. �She was the worst minister we�ve ever had.� Unlike Ms May, she has also not held down a cabinet job.

Ms Leadsom�s allies say that Mr Osborne blocked her promotion to the cabinet and after the last election the chancellor asked for her to be moved out of the Treasury. She was transferred by David Cameron to the energy department.

�She found it difficult to understand issues or take decisions,� said another Treasury official. �She was monomaniacal, seeing the EU as the source of every problem. She alienated officials by continually complaining about poor drafting.�

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:29

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

I think i found just about the most reactionary and conservative pub;cation in history today. A late 19th century magazine called "The Royalist".

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:29

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

disenfranchisement is not a winning argument anywhere and it's much more straightforward to accept that, despite all rhetoric, old people are easier to mobilize to the ballot box than young people, and therefore policy formation should not unduly reward mobilization

that is, less rather than more participatory democracy, particularly for non-general-election votes, and a correspondingly greater empowerment of general-election mandates

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:31

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

Jose posted:

http://labourlist.org/2016/07/clive-lewis-and-jonathan-reynolds-it-is-time-for-labour-to-embrace-pr/

nice to see some sense from labour MP's

Also yes, this. Labour is at least three parties (metropolitan liberals, young lefties, older socially-conservative working class). The Tories are at least two (wets and dries, but you can also split them on liberal/authoritarian). We're at the limit of FPTP to hold those coalitions together, but if any of the parties split one is guaranteed total electoral oblivion because of our lovely voting system.

I guess we'll always have combat boots and ventilators though.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:31

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

Oberleutnant posted:

I think i found just about the most reactionary and conservative pub;cation in history today. A late 19th century magazine called "The Royalist".

If only God was real, or we could agree on exactly which fictitious supernatural fairy we should make the foundation of our constitution

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:32

Rakosi: May 5, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
NO-QUARTERMASTER

From the river (of Palestinian blood) to the sea (of Palestinian tears)

Regarde Aduck posted:

If it helps i'll pretty openly admit they should be disenfranchised because they're terrible and stupid. If a generation of old people can prove that their brains haven't turned to mush once past 50 then they can be allowed to vote again.

Yeah, and this is why I tend to shitpost here more often than not; indefensible opinions like these makes it hard to take anyone here seriously. Props for at least owning your opinion though dude.

I mean, the brand of university student activist socialism rampant in UKMT makes for poo poo reading at the best of times.

For the record, I would have much rather Osborne take over as PM than any of the current offerings in the Tory leadership election. Wouldn't be surprised if he shock declared himself soon.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:34

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Rakosi posted:

For the record, I would have much rather Osborne take over as PM than any of the current offerings in the Tory leadership election. Wouldn't be surprised if he shock declared himself soon.

Applications closed on Thursday.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:35

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

Oberleutnant posted:

I think i found just about the most reactionary and conservative pub;cation in history today. A late 19th century magazine called "The Royalist".

I feel like I've seen more fervently reactionary essays on neoreactionary blogs

precious few people are against "Authority" when "Authority" is defined as the antithesis of "Anarchy"; it's only surprising when "Authority" is something significantly more authoritarian and then the writer endorses it anyway

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:38

GEORGE W BUSHI: Jul 1, 2012

Rakosi posted:

Yeah, and this is why I tend to shitpost here more often than not; indefensible opinions like these makes it hard to take anyone here seriously. Props for at least owning your opinion though dude.

I mean, the brand of university student activist socialism rampant in UKMT makes for poo poo reading at the best of times.

For the record, I would have much rather Osborne take over as PM than any of the current offerings in the Tory leadership election. Wouldn't be surprised if he shock declared himself soon.

That is literally impossible

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:38

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

ShredsYouSay posted:

Straight couples demanding civil partnerships are utterly daft.

The cp legislation is a copy paste of the marriage legislation, used to create "separate but equal" marriages for gay people.

Frankly cps should now just be abolished as there is no point to them any more. The only people who seem to want them are weird straight people who want to get married but don't like the word marriage.

The high court has admitted that civil partnerships could be extended to mixed sex couples by an amendment to one single line of the act. That's a lot easier than placing all people in current civil partnerships in an uncertain status by complete abolition of the act.

Looking at the stats in countries like Belgium and the Netherlands where both options are open to all couples, about 1/4 of same-sex partners and 1/8 of mixed-sex partners opt for civil partnerships instead of marriages, so there is obviously some demand.

Where the options are "make things equal by giving everyone more options via an easier route" or "make things equal by giving everyone less options by a harder route" I have no idea why anyone would go for the latter except maybe spite.

Oberleutnant posted:

I think i found just about the most reactionary and conservative pub;cation in history today. A late 19th century magazine called "The Royalist".

I wonder if they were sincere or just the Victorian equivalent of Moldbug.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:38

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

oh the "Will of the People to be the Sanction of Authority" bit

yea that's pretty weird, even by the standards of the 1890s

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:41

Sulphagnist: Oct 10, 2006; WARNING! INTRUDERS DETECTED

Beefeater1980 posted:

Re Leadsom, the civil service is absolutely fanatical about being apolitical. Obviously everyone has their political beliefs but leaking remains extremely rare by world standards.

If officials say, within the hearing of journalists, that Leadsom was a lovely loving minister, she was a *lovely loving minister*.

If anything Treasury officials tend to be fiscally conservative and love cutting taxes (paradoxically enough since they look after the public purse, but that's the sort of thing that plagues Treasury Departments world over right now) and doing banks favours.

That they are badmouthing Leadsom, who presumably is not economically nor fiscally left-wing, is telling.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:49

Boing: Jul 12, 2005; trapped in custom title factory, send help

If the pound keeps crashing our only choice is to start a new currency. I nominate the Britcoin

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:51

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

Mark Carney just announced that the BoE is relaxing banking regulation wrt to lending for housing and businesses. This can only end well.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:52

Rakosi: May 5, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
NO-QUARTERMASTER

From the river (of Palestinian blood) to the sea (of Palestinian tears)

Boing posted:

If the pound keeps crashing our only choice is to start a new currency. I nominate the Britcoin

I already made that joke over a week ago in the economy brexit thread, you bastard.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:53

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/750277309173735424

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:53

Rakosi: May 5, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
NO-QUARTERMASTER

From the river (of Palestinian blood) to the sea (of Palestinian tears)

Crabb is my new preference, then.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:54

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Rakosi posted:

Crabb is my new preference, then.

I had him predicted to come last. Fox next. Originally had it:

May, Leadsom, Gove, Fox, Crabb

but now that Leadsom apparently talked about strokin branes I'm starting to waver to May, Gove, Leadsom.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:56

Rakosi: May 5, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
NO-QUARTERMASTER

From the river (of Palestinian blood) to the sea (of Palestinian tears)

Tesseraction posted:

I had him predicted to come last. Fox next. Originally had it:

May, Leadsom, Gove, Fox, Crabb

but now that Leadsom apparently talked about strokin branes I'm starting to waver to May, Gove, Leadsom.

I think it'll end up May, Gove, Leadsom, Crabb, Fox.

Gove took a hit but he'll make up ground the longer Leadsom keeps up her act.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:58

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

Gove isn't going to be second place lol

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:59

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

I hope that crabb or fox win, then we can have all the major parties run by animals after eagle wins the labour coup

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:59

Not Operator: Jan 1, 2009; Not A doctor, THE Doctor!

My preference is for all five of them to be swept away by an sudden tornado and dropped into the ocean.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 11:59

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

Average tory

Theresa May - hm not great but experienced at least
Michael Gove - looks like a fish and knifed my man bojo
Andrea Leadsom - not theresa may
Everyone else - who?

# ? Jul 5, 2016 12:00

Rakosi: May 5, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
NO-QUARTERMASTER

From the river (of Palestinian blood) to the sea (of Palestinian tears)

qhat posted:

Gove isn't going to be second place lol

Yeah and Tories weren't gonna win a clear majority in the GE, and Scotland weren't going to stick with rUK and the referendum wasn't going to go Brexit.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 12:01

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

All the major parties are run by animals anyway, just ones that have been cursed with the malignancy of consciousness.

Endless Howling Void 2020

# ? Jul 5, 2016 12:01

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

Maybe Norman lamb can take over the lib Dems so that the minor ones can be as well.

# ? Jul 5, 2016 12:01

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

pointsofdata posted:

I hope that crabb or fox win, then we can have all the major parties run by animals after eagle wins the labour coup

I was about to ask what creature a farron was until I saw you said 'major' party. :laugh:

# ? Jul 5, 2016 12:02

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 16:01

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

Rakosi posted:

Yeah and Tories weren't gonna win a clear majority in the GE, and Scotland weren't going to stick with rUK and the referendum wasn't going to go Brexit.

i never said any of those things so stop posting imo

# ? Jul 5, 2016 12:03

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT July 2016 - Thank you very much. Do doooooo do do. Right.

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