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I'd been away from here for so long that I had managed to forget GaussianCopula. I don't know how that was possible. Your loving finance minister speaks like he owns the continent, you rear end in a top hat. There is a reason he can do this. It's not just the number of seats in the EU parliament that counts and you're just sincerely stupid if you think that that's what "power in the EU" means.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 09:39 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 14:39 |
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I wouldn't like to imagine what Germany would do if it had even more control over greece, would it destroy 60, 70, 80, 100% (!) of it's GDP through austerity instead of just 30%?
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 09:42 |
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blowfish posted:But that doesn't personally directly give me a bigger number in the bank account This is literally why it is a hard sell for any democratically elected government, because very few citizens care about the nebulous concept of expanded international power if it will have real or imagined negative effects on their personal comfort.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 09:43 |
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GaussianCopula posted:How exactly would you reform it? I guess you could force banks to no longer view sovereign debt as riskless assets, but that would wreck the banking system, especially in the South, at this point. Much to the contrary, the solution is to give less power and control to banks, not more. Something like the "circuit du Trésor" that existed in France until the 1970s.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 09:45 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Germany has less power than Malta relative to it's size in the EU, so I would argue that Malta's boost in power through the EU is even larger than the boost Germany gets (btw. this is true for all countries in the EU). Elected or delegated representatives are not the only means of power in the EU, and probably not the most important ones either. Wolfgang Schäuble decides what happens to the greek economy, and that has nothing to do with the number of German seats in the Parliament.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 10:05 |
Cat Mattress posted:Much to the contrary, the solution is to give less power and control to banks, not more. Something like the "circuit du Trésor" that existed in France until the 1970s. Can you go into a bit more detail, because I have never heard of this "circuit du Tresor" and google isn't really helpful either. cebrail posted:Elected or delegated representatives are not the only means of power in the EU, and probably not the most important ones either. Wolfgang Schäuble decides what happens to the greek economy, and that has nothing to do with the number of German seats in the Parliament. Because Wolfgang Schäuble's vision is shared by a majority of member states, the ECB, the IMF and the ESM. Just look at the European Commission, if the power each member state wields were proportional to it's size, Germany would be entitled to at least 4 commissioners (out of 28) while a lot of other countries would have to share one position between them.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 10:28 |
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cebrail posted:Elected or delegated representatives are not the only means of power in the EU, and probably not the most important ones either. Wolfgang Schäuble decides what happens to the greek economy, and that has nothing to do with the number of German seats in the Parliament. If he really did, Greece would be out of the EMU already, and if Germany really had that much power, Spain would have had sanctions imposed on it five years ago. There are limits to German power. Anyway, the proposal to impose sanctions under discussion comes from the European Commission; we don't yet know how the Germans will vote in the Council.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 10:30 |
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GaussianCopula posted:What is the rational argument you can make to the German public why they should subsidize other countries even more without having any direct control over their policies? That a stable, peaceful, and prosperous EU is beneficial to all European countries, including Germany.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:01 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Because Wolfgang Schäuble's vision is shared by a majority of member states, the ECB, the IMF and the ESM. I hate to agree with GG, but he's right. Schäuble couldn't impose all that crap on Greece without the support of a lot of other EU states. He's the public face of the whole movement, but a lot of EU governments share the dumb view of "Greece needs more austerity!".
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:06 |
YF-23 posted:That a stable, peaceful, and prosperous EU is beneficial to all European countries, including Germany. Some people would argue that feeding money into the corrupt clientelism of the South does not make the EU more prosperous, stable or peaceful.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:23 |
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edit: this sentiment above ^^^^^^YF-23 posted:That a stable, peaceful, and prosperous EU is beneficial to all European countries, including Germany. I know you are only half-serious but that comes under the assumption countries Germans have to subsidize are handling their poo poo well, which they aren't. They could be if they were not in the eurozone though, but that's another thing. Yet, still part of the same conundrum. What I'm trying to say certain South European countries are probably hindered by the EU when it comes to succesfully managing their own economies right now and in the near future, but at the same time receive generous funding and loans they don't want to or know how to do without anymore... not even considering the myriad political reasons why leaving the EU or eurozone is considered tantamount to a black hole materializing over Europe. Ligur fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Jul 8, 2016 |
# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:26 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Some people would argue that feeding money into the corrupt clientelism of the South does not make the EU more prosperous, stable or peaceful. I don't think you understand how economies work mate. In any functional country where you have centers of production and export, those areas subsidise less productive areas through the higher tax bases such areas have. What do you think would happen if London or New York came out saying "we don't want our taxes benefitting those lazy Northern twats / redneck hillbillies"? What the gently caress did the Germans think they were signing up for with EU?
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:31 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Some people would argue that feeding money into the corrupt clientelism of the South does not make the EU more prosperous, stable or peaceful. Probably shouldn't have a common currency with them then
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:32 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Some people would argue that feeding money into the corrupt clientelism of the South does not make the EU more prosperous, stable or peaceful. Those people would be wrong.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:39 |
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Friendly Humour posted:I don't think you understand how economies work mate. In any functional country where you have centers of production and export, those areas subsidise less productive areas through the higher tax bases such areas have. What do you think would happen if London or New York came out saying "we don't want our taxes benefitting those lazy Northern twats / redneck hillbillies"? I think you'd find that there are limits to their solidarity and willingness to subsidize peripheral regions ad infinitum, no questions asked. This was Sadiq Khan's reaction to the Brexit vote: quote:Following the UK's vote to leave the EU, Sadiq Khan has said that the capital needs to "take back control" to protect "jobs, wealth and prosperity". Speaking among business leaders to demand more autonomy for London, Khan said that further devolution would be to the benefit of the whole country.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:40 |
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Pluskut Tukker posted:I think you'd find that there are limits to their solidarity and willingness to subsidize peripheral regions ad infinitum, no questions asked. This was Sadiq Khan's reaction to the Brexit vote: Perhaps a common currency is not a good idea then. Because that's what it'll take to make the eurozone work. Germany can't have it's cake and eat it too.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:43 |
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An American New Yorker probably has less qualms about some of his tax money going to upstate rednecks vs some guy in country X being told hey, bitch, we need to fund some other guys halfway around the contient who just happened to prop their system with cheap loans, who have a completely different political system, don't speak the same language and have their own national anthem, and who also think you are an uptight foreigner gently caress. Also LOL the bailouts you have to fund don't even go to poor peasasants but actually private international bankers! So yes a common currency was a bad idea, I guess, if that is the only way to do it. Ligur fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Jul 8, 2016 |
# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:49 |
Friendly Humour posted:I don't think you understand how economies work mate. In any functional country where you have centers of production and export, those areas subsidise less productive areas through the higher tax bases such areas have. What do you think would happen if London or New York came out saying "we don't want our taxes benefitting those lazy Northern twats / redneck hillbillies"? What the gently caress did the Germans think they were signing up for with EU? That's how nations not economies work and in such a setup you would have a democratic government for the whole nation where one man has one vote which is (approximately) equal. This is not the case in the EU. Additionally you can see that such a setup, especially if there are clear flows of money from one region to another, only works if there is a strong national identity, otherwise you get a lot of problems. His Divine Shadow posted:Perhaps a common currency is not a good idea then. Because that's what it'll take to make the eurozone work. Germany can't have it's cake and eat it too. The Euro was introduced specifically with the stipulation that there would be no risk-sharing or fiscal transfers. It is probably also important to note that Germany did not want the Euro, but agreed because that was France's price for the reunification of Germany.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:51 |
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Not regulating the banks and regularly decimating (i.e. killing a tenth) the rich to keep them cowed is a bad idea. http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/power_prejudice_the_politics_of_austerity_part_1 quote:It’s very cynical. But it’s very practical. Imagine you’re a German policymaker. You wake up one morning and there’s been this huge financial crisis and you say to yourself, ‘Well our bankers don’t do this dodgy Anglo-Saxon thing with derivatives.’ Then your policy adviser tells you that in fact Deutsche Bank is the world’s largest derivatives trader.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:51 |
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Ligur posted:An American New Yorker probably has less qualms about some of his tax money going to upstate rednecks vs some guy in country X being told hey, bitch, we need to fund some other guys halfway around the contient who just happened to prop their system with cheap loans, who have a completely different political system, don't speak the same language and have their own national anthem, and who also think you are an uptight foreigner gently caress. Also LOL the bailouts you have to fund don't even go to poor peasasants but actually private international bankers! So you're saying fiscal transfers won't work because the wealthy northerners are racists who can only see the people of southern Europe as stereotypical lazy thieves? I would like to think the rest of your countrymen would be better than that.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:54 |
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YF-23 posted:So you're saying fiscal transfers won't work because the wealthy northerners are racists who can only see the people of southern Europe as stereotypical lazy thieves? I would like to think the rest of your countrymen would be better than that. Well the rest of them, maybe.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:56 |
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YF-23 posted:So you're saying fiscal transfers won't work because the wealthy northerners are racists who can only see the people of southern Europe as stereotypical lazy thieves? I would like to think the rest of your countrymen would be better than that. What the gently caress? That was the last response I expected. How on earth did you come up or end up with this Seriously. edit: His Divine Shadow posted:http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/power_prejudice_the_politics_of_austerity_part_1 That was a good read.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 11:57 |
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GaussianCopula posted:The Euro was introduced specifically with the stipulation that there would be no risk-sharing or fiscal transfers. Turns out that it doesn't really work.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 12:00 |
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Ligur posted:What the gently caress? You told me the gut reaction of a typical northerner being told of fiscal transfers is to interpret it as being called a "bitch" that will be funding some corrupt "other guys halfway across the continent", who have a "different political system" (spooky!), speak a different language and dare to have a national anthem (unlike the northerner in question). If you meant that your media puts out that image? Then sure, your media is very racist. But if you also just accept all the stereotypes presented to you as real then I have some bad news for you.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 12:02 |
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doverhog posted:Relative size, who cares, Germany still has the most. The most, less than it would without the EU. Also the Bundesmark arguably gave Germany greater leverage in Europe than the Euro.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 12:15 |
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YF-23 posted:You told me the gut reaction of a typical northerner being told of fiscal transfers is to interpret it as being called a "bitch" that will be funding some corrupt "other guys halfway across the continent", who have a "different political system" (spooky!), speak a different language and dare to have a national anthem (unlike the northerner in question). Ligur is right, though. The populace of his country is split on even intranational wealth transfers, with cities and rural areas commonly exchanging blows over "who keeps whom alive". The media's portrayal of the Greece crisis was essentially "lol lazy southeners wasting their money on 50 public positions whereas we can do with 0". At the same time public debate has fed into "poors vs immigrants" discussion and there's very little solidarity even among lower classes, and a hysteria of "money not going to elderly and children" is common. Also, austerity and constant fearmongering by right-wingers everywhere. An EU-wide suggestion for wealth transfers would simply not fly in the current political athmosphere of his country. You can say that "lol your media is racist" and wouldn't be wrong, but that doesn't make it any more politically viable for foreseeable future. Turns out current Euro structure is horrid!
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 12:20 |
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YF-23 posted:You told me the gut reaction of a typical northerner being told of fiscal transfers is to interpret it as being called a "bitch" that will be funding some corrupt "other guys halfway across the continent", who have a "different political system" (spooky!), speak a different language and dare to have a national anthem (unlike the northerner in question). I don't even know what to say but I'm laughing so hard right now I'll try... I wasn't talking about "typical northener gut reactions" or "lazy southerners" (you imagined these angles up). Do you have some kind of obsession with racism that is perhaps making you read liiitle bit too much between the lines or project or what? Yeah, EU is telling everyone "bitch do this, bitch do that" no matter if they are from North, South, East or West, what the hell is your problem with that? Or you should have a problem with that, but I don't think you meant it that way... What I'm saying is that such a system as is in place will backfire no matter who is paying who. If the coins were flipped and it was the South paying the North, they'd be like "wtf". Or if, if the Japanese were made to bail out the Australians in a similar scenario we're in now, the general population would at some point get annoyed. And so on. As is the case in EU, there is no connection or common identity strong enough to make people unilaterally accept, say, fiscal risk-sharing. GaussianCopula posted:That's how nations not economies work and in such a setup you would have a democratic government for the whole nation where one man has one vote which is (approximately) equal. This is not the case in the EU. Additionally you can see that such a setup, especially if there are clear flows of money from one region to another, only works if there is a strong national identity, otherwise you get a lot of problems. Sort of like GC said above, get it? quote:If you meant that your media puts out that image? Then sure, your media is very racist. But if you also just accept all the stereotypes presented to you as real then I have some bad news for you. What the gently caress 3000. What media, WHAT PICTURE? I can't even remember the last time when a media was talking about "lazy thieving southerners". In Finland, probably never. I heard some German papers did that, uhh, half a decade ago? Personally, I've always said the general Greek population has no part in the mess they are in, actually, Greeks (counting hours worked/week) are one of the hardest working folks in the EU. EU is broken in many ways so, so is the Eurozone, the Commission and the Troika in general suck, this is in no way the fault of southern EU citizens. You are obviously angry about something but you are really lashing at windmills with your attacks at me right now and I had to, for reals, laugh for a while and my GIRLFRIEND thought I was reading a humour site. (Well, I am, but you are not humour posting, you're just being a huge jackass.) edit: El Perkele posted:The media's portrayal of the Greece crisis was essentially "lol lazy southeners wasting their money on 50 public positions whereas we can do with 0". Not at all true. quote:Turns out current Euro structure is horrid! True.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 12:20 |
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GaussianCopula posted:That's how nations not economies work and in such a setup you would have a democratic government for the whole nation where one man has one vote which is (approximately) equal. This is not the case in the EU. Additionally you can see that such a setup, especially if there are clear flows of money from one region to another, only works if there is a strong national identity, otherwise you get a lot of problems. Right, so then you agree that your (German) intransigence and self-serving pursuit of national interest means that the EU is a doomed project? You cannot have a common economy without wealth transfers from productive areas to less productive areas. Whatever reasons you have for rejecting the idea that Germany has a responsibility for its fellow members of the Union doesn't matter, rejecting those responsibilities means that the European project is over bar the singing. Which is exactly what is happening right this moment. So good loving job, ya dumb gently caress. We'll see how many BMW you'll sell when the tariff barries come back up.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 12:22 |
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El Perkele posted:An EU-wide suggestion for wealth transfers would simply not fly in the current political athmosphere of his country. You can say that "lol your media is racist" and wouldn't be wrong, but that doesn't make it any more politically viable for foreseeable future. I always figured Finland would be on the receiving end given our economy is also being assfucked by the euro in addition to our own efforts.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 12:26 |
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Ligur posted:That was a good read. I really liked this earlier part from the article quote:Well part of it is that too many people’s careers, incomes, and prestige are at stake, people who have built their entire careers during 30 years of neoliberal growth. What we had prior to 2008 was basically a global asset bubble in equities, real estate, and commodities, which finally popped in 2008. The resulting bust was bailed out, which is basically reinsuring the global investor class with the taxpayer’s money. They privatised the profits and socialised the losses. Given this, it’s very difficult for these folks to admit that all the stuff they were talking about, you know, the great moderation, inflation targeting, all those growth models, were basically all crap. The folks in charge are not going to turn around and say, ‘Gee guys, I guess everything we thought since about 1970 turned out to be really dodgy, let’s put the brakes on and dust off a copy of Keynes’s General Theory and implement that.’ It’s just not going to happen. So there’s a lots of bureaucratic political reasons for austerity to continue because no one has any interest in explaining what actually happened: the greatest bait and switch in human history.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 12:49 |
Friendly Humour posted:Right, so then you agree that your (German) intransigence and self-serving pursuit of national interest means that the EU is a doomed project? You cannot have a common economy without wealth transfers from productive areas to less productive areas. Whatever reasons you have for rejecting the idea that Germany has a responsibility for its fellow members of the Union doesn't matter, rejecting those responsibilities means that the European project is over bar the singing. Which is exactly what is happening right this moment. So good loving job, ya dumb gently caress. We'll see how many BMW you'll sell when the tariff barries come back up. The idea that Germany is dependant on the Southern countries for trade is one of those themes in this discussion that is not based in reality. Greece ranks beween South Africa and Israel in trade balance with Germany, Italy between Sweden and Saudi-Arabia and Spain between the VAE and South Korea. I'm not saying that Germany is not profiting from the Euro and EU but the idea that Germany is dependant on the South spending shitload of money they borrowed from Germans on German products and is thereby somehow exploiting the South is absurd. In reality the South, especially Greece, used the cheap credit to go in a spending binge, split between a general increase in standard of living and corruption of the elites and are now going tits up because the banks, having come under immense pressure, no longer borrow Greece money at the same interest rate as Germany. Furthermore a hard currency is generally something a country wants, which is why all of Europe looked with envy at the Deutche Mark. The problem is not that the Maastricht Treaty was to hard, but that it was to soft on the South (Germany and France deserve blame for this) which let their politicians go crazy with the EU branded credit card. His Divine Shadow posted:I really liked this earlier part from the article We had a great experiment with deficit spending in the South and it seems like the multiplier did not work out so great, because otherwise the debt-to-GDP ratio would never go higher than the inverse value of the multiplier. GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 12:52 |
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We? So you say you belong to the group of private banks that got europe into this debt mess?
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 13:01 |
His Divine Shadow posted:We? So you say you belong to the group of private banks that got europe into this debt mess? Banks deserve their fair share of the blame too and Wolfgang Schäuble is a fervent advocate for breaking the link between national debt and the banking system by requiring banks to no longer treat sovereign debt as a riskless asset.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 13:05 |
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His Divine Shadow posted:I always figured Finland would be on the receiving end given our economy is also being assfucked by the euro in addition to our own efforts. You are probably underestimating how much better off Finland is compared to the majority of other countries in the EU even with the poo poo economic situation here.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 13:10 |
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I was using northerner vs southerner because that has been the dominant narrative for almost a decade now. If you were talking generally; good! The north vs south narrative has been so strong that it's pretty much the default state when it comes to talking about EU people going FYGM. I do not believe you saying that Finnish media was fair in any way, though. No media is.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 13:27 |
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Here's a hypothetical: How would you feel about a federal wealth transfer system run entirely by the EU, on top of the national institutions, which would help prevent the worst miseries in countries like Greece without simply "funneling money into a corrupt system"? Basically, an EU-wide benefits system which was run and designed according to Northern European specifications. Perhaps even designed in such a way that the only countries with any say over how it was run are the ones who are net contributors to the EU budget. The whole point being to support the economy and welfare in poorer states, without supporting corrupt state apparatuses, building up a healthier relationship between state and citizen than currently exists in some places. (The state being the EU in this case, rather than nation states.) Obviously meant for GC, but I'll take all replies.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 13:32 |
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Your idea doesn't work because EU institutions just funnel money into local ones.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 13:35 |
A Buttery Pastry posted:Here's a hypothetical: How would you feel about a federal wealth transfer system run entirely by the EU, on top of the national institutions, which would help prevent the worst miseries in countries like Greece without simply "funneling money into a corrupt system"? Basically, an EU-wide benefits system which was run and designed according to Northern European specifications. Perhaps even designed in such a way that the only countries with any say over how it was run are the ones who are net contributors to the EU budget. The whole point being to support the economy and welfare in poorer states, without supporting corrupt state apparatuses, building up a healthier relationship between state and citizen than currently exists in some places. (The state being the EU in this case, rather than nation states.) What would be the goal of such a "benefits" system. Are we talking about social benefits, investment funds or what do you have specifically in mind and about what dimensions are we talking, given that the EU already has an operating budget of €143 billion. Keep in mind that Greece today has a GDP per capita that is almost 20% higher than that of Slovenia and you don't here about a humanitarian emergency from them. GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 13:42 |
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Perhaps even designed in such a way that the only countries with any say over how it was run are the ones who are net contributors to the EU budget. The whole point being to support the economy and welfare in poorer states, without supporting corrupt state apparatuses, building up a healthier relationship between state and citizen than currently exists in some places. (The state being the EU in this case, rather than nation states.) Are you going to create a parallel state apparatus to manage this support? If you are going to such lengths why not replace rather than co-exist-with the old one? Hell, that's a plan Germany just might get behind.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 13:43 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 14:39 |
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GaussianCopula posted:Some people would argue that feeding money into the corrupt clientelism of the South does not make the EU more prosperous, stable or peaceful. Corrupt spendthrift governments like Spain? Do you know the debt ratio they went into the crisis with? Austerity is damaging no matter the fiscal situation leading intuitive the crisis. Gdp is a real number not just a denominator in a ratio of moral hygiene.
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# ? Jul 8, 2016 14:58 |