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Cerv posted:if it were that clear there wouldn't be conflicting lawyers' opinions :p Please enlighten us as to which principles are being embodied by Porgress, Labour First, and Angela Eagle in their attempt to depose a democratically elected leader of the Party who has presided over the largest increase in the membership in modern times and a series of elections that have seen the party consistently prove wrong every prediction of imminent and dire defeat. What crucial test has Corbyn failed that warrants his immediate overthrow and replacement with more of the same bunch that have seen Labour to two General Election defeats? Actually don't bother because you'd only be lying to us and yourself, and we all know full-well it's about the Labour Right saving their own gravy train.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:28
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deletebeepbeepbeep posted:I just don't understand how Eagle thinks she is going to get the support of Labour members given her voting record. She will either lose heavily to Corbyn or they will find a way to keep him off the ballot and there will be riots and a split. I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a desperate attempt to keep the negative press going. Like you think it's done and dusted and everyone's ready to leave, and then someone stands up again and goes 'bad Corbyn' There's no election plan here. They have absolutely no idea what they're doing, the whole thing's embarrassing. The only success they're having is getting negative coverage for Corbyn into the media, to shape public opinion against him and the party, so it looks like they're just keeping that rolling
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Jul 9, 2016 21:30
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Oberleutnant posted:What crucial test has Corbyn failed that warrants his immediate overthrow and replacement with more of the same bunch that have seen Labour to two General Election defeats? Not being able to secure a sufficient number of MPs to nominate him for the leadership contest would be a crucial, failed test.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:31
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Oberleutnant posted:Please enlighten us as to which principles are being embodied by Porgress, Labour First, and Angela Eagle in their attempt to depose a democratically elected leader of the Party who has presided over the largest increase in the membership in modern times and a series of elections that have seen the party consistently prove wrong every prediction of imminent and dire defeat. i never said i wanted Eagle to take the leadership or any of this poo poo. so lol no enlighten yourself
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Jul 9, 2016 21:32
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Captain Fargle posted:Uh... Uh what, The Troubles were about class, the only way Brexit would reignite them is by completely wrecking the Norn Iron economy leading to mass unemployment which is then exploited by paramilitaries.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:32
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other than the speech did anything happen other than ober fall for pissflaps?
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Jul 9, 2016 21:33
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Pissflaps posted:Not being able to secure a sufficient number of MPs to nominate him for the leadership contest would be a crucial, failed test.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:34
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Cerv posted:as a man of principal i don't see how Corbyn can demand to be on the members ballot without passing the MPs vote when he was part of the push that required Kinnock to do the same in the past Can you elaborate? I'm assuming this is the '88 challenge to Kinnock?
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Jul 9, 2016 21:35
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Cerv posted:as a man of principal i don't see how Corbyn can demand to be on the members ballot without passing the MPs vote when he was part of the push that required Kinnock to do the same in the past As a man of principle he already did, that's why got to be on the members ballot in the first place. He doesn't need to do it again.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:36
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Oberleutnant posted:And on what basis do they refuse that support? It seems they lack confidence in his ability to lead the Labour party.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:38
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thespaceinvader posted:This makes you realise why Corbyn has been so determined to stay. That's definitely the best I've ever seen Corbyn speak.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:38
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Cerv posted:as a man of principal i don't see how Corbyn can demand to be on the members ballot without passing the MPs vote when he was part of the push that required Kinnock to do the same in the past Because the two elections operate under entirely different rules?
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Jul 9, 2016 21:38
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Guys Prescott is sticking it to Blair. YES.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:38
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deletebeepbeepbeep posted:There is no way I'd support Labour with Eagle in charge, may as well vote Tory and have done with it. Well that's the problem, you probably will. Corbyn supporters will scream and shout and stamp their feet and leave the party in droves (which is great because then that lets the PLP get back to business as usual) but then still vote Labour come the next GE because who the gently caress else are you going to vote for? And then it'll just be Tory-lite policy forever and ever amen. People here talk about starting a new political party with Corbyn at the helm but I can't really see that happening. I'm not even sure if Corbyn himself would be interested, any more than Sanders would want to run as an independent in the US despite his more fervent supporters desperately wanting him to. If the PLP get Corbyn off the ballot they've won, end of. Petulant members will leave in droves leaving no opposition to rewriting the party's charter to be more to their liking.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:39
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Guys Prescott is sticking it to Blair. YES. Well link that poo poo!
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Jul 9, 2016 21:40
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Tesseraction posted:Well link that poo poo! Bloody hell you lazy git! http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tony-blair-forced-illegal-war-8387288 quote:Tony Blair forced us into an illegal war, claims former Deputy PM John Prescott But he might be talking about a different Tony Blair I dunno.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:42
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Mr Dog posted:Corbyn supporters will scream and shout and stamp their feet and leave the party in droves (which is great because then that lets the PLP get back to business as usual) but then still vote Labour come the next GE because who the gently caress else are you going to vote for? Lib Dem or Green seems to be the top choices of some of Corbyn's biggest fans in this thread.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:43
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None of this would even be an issue if we had a Stalinist dictatorship.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:43
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Bloody hell you lazy git! Oh boo I thought you meant a live speech! Still, I'll take it. Good old Prezza.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:44
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Pissflaps posted:It seems they lack confidence in his ability to lead the Labour party. Cerebral Bore posted:Because the two elections operate under entirely different rules?
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Jul 9, 2016 21:44
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Mr Dog posted:Corbyn supporters will scream and shout and stamp their feet and leave the party in droves (which is great because then that lets the PLP get back to business as usual) but then still vote Labour come the next GE because who the gently caress else are you going to vote for? Somebody else.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:46
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Mr Dog posted:Well that's the problem, you probably will. I'd probably be willing to stick around and push for reselections, if I actually wanted to reselect my guy, but I honestly don't either way. If he's not on the ballot initially, I WILL be pushing my MP to nominate him and to use whatever influence he has over the waverers to nominate him as well. He nominated him before and I'm sure there would be calls in no uncertain terms from the CLP to do so again. Let's not forget Corbyn has enough people who voted confidence or didn't vote to get on the ballot even with the 51 member requirement. Why is it 51 for a challenge and not 35 again? But yeah, unless Corbyn is on the ballot either by right as leader or by actually getting enough nominations, we're hopelessly hosed either way. AT that point it's time to dehumanise yourself and face to fascism.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:46
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Oberleutnant posted:Yeah, notably that in this one has an incumbent leader who according to the rules needs no nominations to stand. That seems to be uncertain at this time. If it was clearly stated in the rules that this is the case then Corbyn wouldn't have needed to seek legal advice about the issue.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:47
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Bloody hell you lazy git!
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Jul 9, 2016 21:47
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Oberleutnant posted:Well since Corbyn's candidature and leadership the party has grown from 200,000 to 500,000 members, and has seen a string of solid performances at local elections, so their critique doesn't really hold much water. The party is performing well under his leadership. are you drunk
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Jul 9, 2016 21:48
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Mr Dog posted:still vote Labour come the next GE because who the gently caress else are you going to vote for? If Labour get re-taken by the dipshits? Spoil my ballot.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:49
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Pissflaps posted:The only real change he will bring is increasing the size of the Tory majority. He needs to be replaced with somebody who can bring about a Labour government because people are suffering and dying under this Tory one. Assuming that they depose Corbyn and win a general election against the Conservatives, in what ways do you envision the PLP coup faction alleviating the suffering and death under the Tories? What specific areas do you see them improving on Conservative policy in, and how? Remember that their leaders abstained on the welfare bill last year, for example.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:49
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If there's not a mainstream socialist to vote for, this would be the election that finally forces me to vote green. Or spoil my ballot, same difference really.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:50
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Mr Dog posted:If the PLP get Corbyn off the ballot they've won, end of. Petulant members will leave in droves leaving no opposition to rewriting the party's charter to be more to their liking. What kind of opposition could work within the party though? That's effectively what Corbyn is, someone who wants to reform things so the direction of the party is more democratic and less controlled by the encumbent PLP. The PLP are doing their best to destroy that attempt, and make sure they never make the mistake of letting someone leftist get anywhere near a nomination again. If they manage to sabotage this and cement their grip on power, what can the membership do? Pissflaps posted:Lib Dem or Green seems to be the top choices of some of Corbyn's biggest fans in this thread. Ironic
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Jul 9, 2016 21:51
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Mr Dog posted:Well that's the problem, you probably will. i won't vote
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Jul 9, 2016 21:51
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Tesseraction posted:If Labour get re-taken by the dipshits? Spoil my ballot. thespaceinvader posted:dehumanise yourself and face to fascism. I'm guessing the PLP's rationale is something along the lines of "Corbyn's rabid supporters are 0.5% of the UK's population and the other 99.5% can't loving stand them".
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Jul 9, 2016 21:52
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thespaceinvader posted:If there's not a mainstream socialist to vote for, this would be the election that finally forces me to vote green. Or spoil my ballot, same difference really. Spoil your ballot. It increases voter turnout but doesn't inflate the Green vote artificially as a protest vote.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:52
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Labour might not win with Corbyn leading, but they definitely won't win if they force him out without a fair leadership election and run some boring off-brand tory.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:53
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Tesseraction posted:Spoil your ballot. It increases voter turnout but doesn't inflate the Green vote artificially as a protest vote. Unless you like the Greens, in which case voting for them will at least be ineffective in the right direction.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:54
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baka kaba posted:If they manage to sabotage this and cement their grip on power, what can the membership do?
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Jul 9, 2016 21:55
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Tesseraction posted:Spoil your ballot. It increases voter turnout but doesn't inflate the Green vote artificially as a protest vote. I didn't think spoiled ballots counted towards the turnout. Assuming they do, then yes I would. Probably by writing 'a socialist please' on the bottom. Mr Dog posted:I'm guessing the PLP's rationale is something along the lines of "Corbyn's rabid supporters are 0.5% of the UK's population and the other 99.5% can't loving stand them". They don't have a rationale as far as I can see, other than 'centrist = electable' without really defining that. They don't really have any definition they're just generic Politician, (Shirt, Stuffed, willing to say basically anything for Power).
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Jul 9, 2016 21:55
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Tesseraction posted:Can you elaborate? I'm assuming this is the '88 challenge to Kinnock? though there was never any question that he wouldn't have easily got the nominations, so we'll never know if he would have claimed automatic eligibility at the time. Cerebral Bore posted:Because the two elections operate under entirely different rules?
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Jul 9, 2016 21:56
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lfield posted:Labour might not win with Corbyn leading, but they definitely won't win if they force him out without a fair leadership election and run some boring off-brand tory. Maybe, but consider that the left-wing base of the Labour party will simply become demotivated and not participate in the election. The Conservatives, on the other hand, will be getting attacked from the right by a newly emboldened UKIP. There is at least some twisted logic to the PLP's strategy at the moment.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:56
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Oberleutnant posted:The membership at the last GE was 200k, the membership now is 500k. The unions have thrown their support behind Corbyn. The lion's share of the party's grass-roots and financial support are united behind a leader who might be deposed by a minuscule minority of the party elite. At that point it's splitting time. I think this would be a good idea.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:57
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Bryter posted:That's a dumb argument. The troubles weren't about the border. The lack of a physical border between the North and the South is important to the security of both the Irish and British states as it provides the Irish minority of Northern Ireland the freedom of movement within the entirety of their cultural home, a linchpin of the Good Friday Agreement. Indeed, it's why the reason why the Irish withdrew their application to join the EEC after Le Grande Non; they didn't want any more border controls than the domestic situation required.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:57
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