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Mr Dog posted:Maybe, but consider that the left-wing base of the Labour party will simply become demotivated and not participate in the election. The Conservatives, on the other hand, will be getting attacked from the right by a newly emboldened UKIP. There is at least some twisted logic to the PLP's strategy at the moment. if they were capable of that kind of strategic thinking they wouldn't have hammed up the leadership election and then this pathetic coup so badly E: or the last election where the conservatives were theoretically being hammered by UKIP
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Jul 9, 2016 21:57
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thespaceinvader posted:I didn't think spoiled ballots counted towards the turnout. Assuming they do, then yes I would. Probably by writing 'a socialist please' on the bottom.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:57
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Oberleutnant posted:The membership at the last GE was 200k, the membership now is 500k. The unions have thrown their support behind Corbyn. The lion's share of the party's grass-roots and financial support are united behind a leader who might be deposed by a minuscule minority of the party elite. At that point it's splitting time. The struggle at that point is that there's now a rump of independent MPs or a new party in the opposition seat being generally poo poo for however long it takes to reach the next election, which would be 2020 if the next PM had the slightest shred of sense, and and the media could then justify ignoring Labour (or whatever it ends up called) entirely. It's such a hosed-up system when you can't impeach people for failing to do their loving jobs.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:58
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Oberleutnant posted:The membership at the last GE was 200k, the membership now is 500k. The unions have thrown their support behind Corbyn. The lion's share of the party's grass-roots and financial support are united behind a leader who might be deposed by a minuscule minority of the party elite. At that point it's splitting time. Yeah but I mean in this hypothetical scenario of not leaving and working to reform it. It's only through massive oversight and hubris on the PLP's part that they lost their grip on the party, and you can pretty much bet they'll try to rig the system so the membership can never elect a threat to them again
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Jul 9, 2016 21:58
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Mr Dog posted:I'm guessing the PLP's rationale is something along the lines of "Corbyn's rabid supporters are 0.5% of the UK's population and the other 99.5% can't loving stand them". Which is an understandable position for those in the Westminster bubble to come to, but it ignores the less-than-two-thirding of Labour's vote share from 1997 to 2010: 13.5mn in 1997, 8.6mn in 2010. Miliband gained them 700k voters to make it 9.3. Honestly Labour lost more votes under third-wayism than they did from Callaghan to Foot.
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Jul 9, 2016 21:59
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Mr Dog posted:I'm guessing the PLP's rationale is something along the lines of "Corbyn's rabid supporters are 0.5% of the UK's population and the other 99.5% can't loving stand them". Right, but you need idealistic young people to accomplish any modern political campaign, they're the grease that enables democracy to work: they knock on doors, they produce and deliver leaflets, they operate phone banks, they run stalls and they pay their membership dues. They represent a significant fraction of Labour's funding and another huge chunk are the unions, who are still overwhelmingly pro-Corbyn. The membership gets to decide these things because without the membership there is no Labour Party. If you think Corbyn can't win an election, for which I think there absolutely is an argument for, then you need to convince the membership this is true. It might be the case that this will take an election. But if you sincerely think that Labour is going to do better after infuriating their membership then you're barking. See Scotland's impressive Labour showing for more details.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:00
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TinTower posted:The lack of a physical border between the North and the South is important to the security of both the Irish and British states as it provides the Irish minority of Northern Ireland the freedom of movement within the entirety of their cultural home, a linchpin of the Good Friday Agreement. Yep. Saying "it's never been about the border" is a dumb statement to make when there's never been border controls. The prospect of border controls between NI and ROI is a massive step backwards and basically playing russian roulette with the status quo.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:00
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Angepain posted:Unless you like the Greens, in which case voting for them will at least be ineffective in the right direction. True, but while I like the Greens, and was a member, I prefer a party less scared of valid science. thespaceinvader posted:I didn't think spoiled ballots counted towards the turnout. Assuming they do, then yes I would. Probably by writing 'a socialist please' on the bottom. Turnout is measured by who arrives at a polling station. Getting a ballot and doing nothing with it still boosts turnout, regardless of spoiling or not.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:01
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Cerv posted:the final ballot is different with one-person-one-vote instead of the college, but the MPs/MEPs round in question is basically the same. So what? The rules for the election are still different, and I'm not aware of any moral principle that would require a candidate in an election to consider whether they'd be eligible under a different set of rules.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:03
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Yep. Saying "it's never been about the border" is a dumb statement to make when there's never been border controls. The prospect of border controls between NI and ROI is a massive step backwards and basically playing russian roulette with the status quo. I'm not clear about why there would necessarily be a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic following Brexit - the Common Travel Area is separate and Ireland isn't in Schengen. Couldn't enhanced checks be put in place in and out of Northern Ireland to make up for it?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:05
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baka kaba posted:Yeah but I mean in this hypothetical scenario of not leaving and working to reform it. It's only through massive oversight and hubris on the PLP's part that they lost their grip on the party, and you can pretty much bet they'll try to rig the system so the membership can never elect a threat to them again At that point you just have to accept that the Labour Party's only connection with the struggle of the working classes is its name - a hollowed out skin being worn as a suit by the PLP. At that point you need to get out and start afresh.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:05
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Tesseraction posted:True, but while I like the Greens, and was a member, I prefer a party less scared of valid science. I assume the same is true of postal ballots which is what I usually do? DUly borne in mind, thanks. On another note, NEC voting is coming up, and Momentum are doing a good campaign of who to vote for who is pro-Corbyn. One of them is my CLP chair. Voting closes 12 August.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:06
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Oberleutnant posted:At that point you just have to accept that the Labour Party's only connection with the struggle of the working classes is its name - a hollowed out skin being worn as a suit by the PLP. At that point you need to get out and start afresh. Would you want to see them use the Momentum name?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:06
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Pissflaps posted:Would you want to see them use the Momentum name?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:09
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Lest we forget the PLP have actively looked into "can we keep the Labour name if we split", the answer is "no" and is why they're stuck with the current crisis(that's entirely of their own making).
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Jul 9, 2016 22:09
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Yinlock posted:Lest we forget the PLP have actively looked into "can we keep the Labour name if we split", the answer is "no" and is why they're stuck with the current crisis(that's entirely of their own making). They have? Link?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:10
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Yinlock posted:Lest we forget the PLP have actively looked into "can we keep the Labour name if we split", the answer is "no" and is why they're stuck with the current crisis(that's entirely of their own making).
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Jul 9, 2016 22:10
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Tesseraction posted:Turnout is measured by who arrives at a polling station. Getting a ballot and doing nothing with it still boosts turnout, regardless of spoiling or not. Doing nothing with your ballot does not increase turnout. Only ballots put into the boxes are counted towards turnout. I don't know if spoiled ballots are included or not; the percentage is so small that it's impossible to tell. Also don't take a ballot if you're not going to put it in the box. Logs are kept of the number of ballots that are meant to have been put in the box, and if that number differs from the number that are in the box the count has to be verified several times to prove nothing dodgy has happened.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:10
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thespaceinvader posted:This makes you realise why Corbyn has been so determined to stay. Also reposting this because pissflaps' latest spat of pedantry is trying to bury it. Still a great speech.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:10
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thespaceinvader posted:They have? Link? Oberleutnant posted:Oh really? I missed this. Link? http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/anti-corbyn-labour-mps-plan-breakaway-group-in-parliament EDIT: quote:“It comes down to what would be the legalities around retaining the name ‘the Labour party’,” one MP told the Guardian, in the latest evidence that Corbyn’s detractors are ready to use every weapon in their armoury in the escalating war in the party.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:11
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Pissflaps posted:I'm not clear about why there would necessarily be a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic following Brexit - the Common Travel Area is separate and Ireland isn't in Schengen. I believe Ireland is in the process of joining Schengen, in theory? In practice they don't seem to be in any hurry.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:11
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TinTower posted:The lack of a physical border between the North and the South is important to the security of both the Irish and British states as it provides the Irish minority of Northern Ireland the freedom of movement within the entirety of their cultural home, a linchpin of the Good Friday Agreement. I'm not going to be free to move between NI and the republic despite being a citizen of both Ireland and Britain? And SF are going to say "gently caress our plans for the Dáil and gently caress being a party of government in the north lads, we're picking up the armalites again"? The troubles were a civil rights struggle that went out of control. People didn't fight and die for Ireland, they fought because they were treated like second class citizens, couldn't get a home, couldn't get a job, and had their protests against the status quo met with state violence. The idea that border controls would be met with the same reaction today is absurd. Lord of the Llamas posted:Yep. Saying "it's never been about the border" is a dumb statement to make when there's never been border controls. The prospect of border controls between NI and ROI is a massive step backwards and basically playing russian roulette with the status quo. You're going to have to explain how an upset to the political status quo will lead to the troubles being reignited.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:13
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NRVNQSR posted:I believe Ireland is in the process of joining Schengen, in theory? In practice they don't seem to be in any hurry. The Irish government have stated on multiple occasions "we won't join until the UK does". Ireland has a permanent derogation from the Treaty of Amsterdam (which incorporates the Schengen Treaty into the Treaty on European Union) due to the situation of us being stupid isolationist fuckers.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:14
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TinTower posted:The Irish government have stated on multiple occasions "we won't join until the UK does". Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
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Jul 9, 2016 22:16
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Yinlock posted:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/anti-corbyn-labour-mps-plan-breakaway-group-in-parliament Is the 'no' answer in a separate link?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:18
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Pissflaps posted:Is the 'no' answer in a separate link? It's implied by the fact that they won't split. If they were looking into it and successfully got the name there's no reason for them to stay.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:19
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Yinlock posted:Lest we forget the PLP have actively looked into "can we keep the Labour name if we split", the answer is "no" and is why they're stuck with the current crisis(that's entirely of their own making). They're not stuck, they can call themselves the Specially Democratic Party or something, like at Aldi
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Jul 9, 2016 22:19
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Jedit posted:Doing nothing with your ballot does not increase turnout. Only ballots put into the boxes are counted towards turnout. I don't know if spoiled ballots are included or not; the percentage is so small that it's impossible to tell. Ah, I was thinking about leaving a ballot blank and putting it in the box, not taking the ballot out of the place. I'd assume they have to be counted as spoiled, because spoiled ballots are definitely tallied to my knowledge? This might be my ignorance showing.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:20
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baka kaba posted:They're not stuck, they can call themselves the Specially Democratic Party or something, like at Aldi We all know it'll be the NCAP, No Corbyns Allowed Party.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:21
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Vengeance of Pandas posted:We all know it'll be the NCAP, No Corbyns Allowed Party. "It says No Corbyns Allowed, you're allowed to have one."
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Jul 9, 2016 22:24
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baka kaba posted:They're not stuck, they can call themselves the Specially Democratic Party or something, like at Aldi The fact they're staying still means that they care a whole bunch about the name though. Or they're just too dumb to think of something like that, lord knows I'm not ruling that out.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:24
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TinTower posted:"It says No Corbyns Allowed, you're allowed to have one." This could actually work. British politics is dumb enough right now to have Simpsons loopholes.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:31
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I know it was already on the website but loooool: https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/751891084280754176 Now we're talking.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:32
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Oberleutnant posted:I know it was already on the website but loooool: Two Jags? More like TOO RAD Prescott. 
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Jul 9, 2016 22:34
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Corbyn is an illegal name anyway.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:34
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TinTower posted:"It says No Corbyns Allowed, you're allowed to have one." "Hyuk!" -Piers Corbyn, from the Sun's black cab
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Jul 9, 2016 22:37
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Bryter posted:I'm not going to be free to move between NI and the republic despite being a citizen of both Ireland and Britain? And SF are going to say "gently caress our plans for the Dáil and gently caress being a party of government in the north lads, we're picking up the armalites again"? Nobody has said "The Troubles" will be replayed in the exact same fashion as before. But you'd be crazy not to think that there won't be a concerted political push for Irish unification and nobody knows how that would play out. Let us not forget that "lol Brexit that won't happen" turned into Jo Cox being gunned down in the street by a fascist, leave winning the referendum, and a massive rise in hate crime and racist abuse. So I'm afraid that I don't find "lol you guys are just scaremongering it'll all be ok" a very convincing argument to make wrt. the NI situation.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:47
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Bryter posted:I'm not going to be free to move between NI and the republic despite being a citizen of both Ireland and Britain? And SF are going to say "gently caress our plans for the Dáil and gently caress being a party of government in the north lads, we're picking up the armalites again"? Exactly this, I recommend it all the time but everyone who wants to learn about The Troubles should read War and an Irish Town by Eamonn McCann.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:48
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ukle posted:Neil Kinnock didn't do that, that was John Smith. May as well go to the whole hog: Kinnock was the worst Labour leader since Ramsey "split the party" MacDonald. Side note, gently caress all of you with nothing better to do on a Saturday night than have a slap fight with Pissflaps.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:51
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forkboy84 posted:Side note, gently caress all of you with nothing better to do on a Saturday night than have a slap fight with Pissflaps. Hey now. I'm spending my Saturday night watching others have a slap fight with Pissflaps. The rum helps.
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