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I'm smoking a cigar and drinking Flor de Cana 18 at work waiting for the pub to shut so I can do a load of coke and watch the UFC in the front bar. Edit:123AD Mug Nuadat defeats the High King of Ireland, Conn of the Hundred Battles proving that Irish kings had cooler names than British ones. StoneOfShame fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jul 9, 2016 |
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Jul 9, 2016 22:54
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forkboy84 posted:May as well go to the whole hog: Kinnock was the worst Labour leader since Ramsey "split the party" MacDonald. This is the first saturday in... i think months where I haven't had a demo or political meeting to go to. This is my idea of a relaxing night in.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:54
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Pissflaps posted:I'm not clear about why there would necessarily be a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic following Brexit - the Common Travel Area is separate and Ireland isn't in Schengen. If the UK remains in the single market that'll work fine. But if we don't and there are now import duties to be paid on goods taken between Ireland and the UK a border enforcement becomes necessary doesn't it
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Jul 9, 2016 22:54
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Cerv posted:If the UK remains in the single market that'll work fine. But if we don't and there are now import duties to be paid on goods taken between Ireland and the UK a border enforcement becomes necessary doesn't it Not meaning to grill you on it but what were you talkin' about RE: Corbyn and Kinnock's position on the ballot?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:55
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TinTower posted:The Irish government have stated on multiple occasions "we won't join until the UK does". Ireland has a permanent derogation from the Treaty of Amsterdam (which incorporates the Schengen Treaty into the Treaty on European Union) due to the situation of us being stupid isolationist fuckers. The Northern Ireland situation has made this sensible for Northern Ireland and Ireland; If Ireland were to join Schengen they'd have to put up a Schengen outer border in Northern Ireland. They've been sitting out because the UK obviously didn't want to join Schengen. It was never happening unless the UK joined. Luckily the UK has completely disregarded this complexity that lead to the maintenance of the Common Travel Area in the first place, and Ireland will be free to join Schengen since the CTA will, after Brexit, consist of exactly one state. The CTA is not going to survive Brexit unless freedom of movement stays.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:58
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forkboy84 posted:May as well go to the whole hog: Kinnock was the worst Labour leader since Ramsey "split the party" MacDonald. We are posting on the something awful dot com (a 1990s internet comedy site) forums, do you really, sincerely, expect us to be above this?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:59
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If the PLP think Corbyn supporters will simply suck it up and vote 'lesser of two evils' Labour, then they'll be disappointed. I can easily see those who have newly joined Labour and those who have rejoined Labour supporting some like the Greens out of protest, as well as throwing all of their new found political activism behind them. I mean, I'm personally not a big fan of the Greens (particularly after Bennet's terrible GE 2015 interview), but I can see them capitalising on Corbyn being ousted and potentially getting their act together after in influx of left activists. The Scottish Green's benefited from a similar influx after the Yes campaign (though they had to contend with the SNP). I also reckon there's a considerable number of old left voters who had been voting Labour out of the 'lesser of two evils' logic who may no longer be so inclined to do so after they unceremoniously oust the first leader with a proper left platform in decades. Thanks in part to protesting against the Iraq war being the first major political event I engaged with, I have never voted Labour at a General Election before. Electing a leader who voted for the Iraq war will guarantee that will not change.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:59
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Pissflaps posted:I'm not clear about why there would necessarily be a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic following Brexit - the Common Travel Area is separate and Ireland isn't in Schengen. EU citizens would continue to have the right to settle in Ireland. To "take back control of immigration", you'd have to have a hard border, otherwise Poley McPoleFace can just settle in Dundalk and be able to just wander across the border into Newry. Which is fine by me but not by the 52% of knuckle-draggers in this country.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:00
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Nobody has said "The Troubles" will be replayed in the exact same fashion as before. But you'd be crazy not to think that there won't be a concerted political push for Irish unification and nobody knows how that would play out. Let us not forget that "lol Brexit that won't happen" turned into Jo Cox being gunned down in the street by a fascist, leave winning the referendum, and a massive rise in hate crime and racist abuse. So I'm afraid that I don't find "lol you guys are just scaremongering it'll all be ok" a very convincing argument to make wrt. the NI situation. Again, you're going to have to explain how and why a concerted political push for Irish unification will reignite the troubles or lead to the "utter carnage" the original tweet envisaged. Forgive me for not finding "well sometimes people are wrong, so maybe you're wrong" a very convincing argument.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:01
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Yeah, the current situation can still exist if freedom of movement stays. Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are in Schengen without being in the EU, after all.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:01
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Oberleutnant posted:This is the first saturday in... i think months where I haven't had a demo or political meeting to go to. This is my idea of a relaxing night in. Hope you at least noticed the books I recommended you. vodkat posted:We are posting on the something awful dot com (a 1990s internet comedy site) forums, do you really, sincerely, expect us to be above this? We've all done it. I've done it plenty. It's still really rubbish to read when you're not one of the people arguing with him about the same 3 things.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:03
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forkboy84 posted:Hope you at least noticed the books I recommended you. forkboy84 posted:Anthony Beevor's The Battle for Spain was good as a general history of the conflict. Very easy read and from what I remember the reviews by historians were generally favourable.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:05
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TinTower posted:The lack of a physical border between the North and the South is important to the security of both the Irish and British states as it provides the Irish minority of Northern Ireland the freedom of movement within the entirety of their cultural home, a linchpin of the Good Friday Agreement. A change in the border arrangement and a roll back on cross border initiatives will undoubtedly resolve in a more robust nationalism which had arguable slid into a complacent political rut in the last few years with nationalist voter turnout falling, but the troubles where not solely motivated by a nationalist desire for a united Ireland but where driven by an unjust state and sectarian institutions that have largely been dismantled. A resurgence of nationalist sentiment does not a neo-troubles make
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Jul 9, 2016 23:10
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Bryter posted:Again, you're going to have to explain how and why a concerted political push for Irish unification will reignite the troubles or lead to the "utter carnage" the original tweet envisaged. Forgive me for not finding "well sometimes people are wrong, so maybe you're wrong" a very convincing argument. Where are you from ?
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Jul 9, 2016 23:24
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forkboy84 posted:Side note, gently caress all of you with nothing better to do on a Saturday night than have a slap fight with Pissflaps. He's the best at what he does, bub. 
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Jul 9, 2016 23:25
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Bryter posted:Again, you're going to have to explain how and why a concerted political push for Irish unification will reignite the troubles or lead to the "utter carnage" the original tweet envisaged. Forgive me for not finding "well sometimes people are wrong, so maybe you're wrong" a very convincing argument. Again, you are the only person to mention "the troubles". The fact is that nobody knows what the post-Brexit NI/ROI border situation will look like so both sides will be making strong claims regardless of their likelihood and just like in Scotland over Indyref or the UK over EURef this will be very divisive. What I think is certain is that the concerns of the Northern Irish will be secondary to the UK government given that it will have too much already on its plate over Brexit and the pro-Brexit English pretty much don't give a poo poo. Can I prove it'll be a disaster? Do I know exactly what this disaster will look like? No. But these are the kind of conditions that disasters thrive in.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:30
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Again, you are the only person to mention "the troubles". The fact is that nobody knows what the post-Brexit NI/ROI border situation will look like so both sides will be making strong claims regardless of their likelihood and just like in Scotland over Indyref or the UK over EURef this will be very divisive. What I think is certain is that the concerns of the Northern Irish will be secondary to the UK government given that it will have too much already on its plate over Brexit and the pro-Brexit English pretty much don't give a poo poo. Can I prove it'll be a disaster? Do I know exactly what this disaster will look like? No. But these are the kind of conditions that disasters thrive in. It's Northern Ireland. You already know what a disaster is going to look like and that's exploding cars.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:34
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Yeah, if leaving the EU means that the UK attempts to start up a domestic motor company again that would probably be the case.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:38
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Captain Fargle posted:It's Northern Ireland. You already know what a disaster is going to look like and that's exploding cars. I'm not convinced the old IRA skillsets/supply chains are anywhere near operational. I wouldn't be surprised at young angry men fighting and killing each other in drunken brawls and a big dose of sectarian intimidation and vandalism though.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:39
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https://twitter.com/BestoftheMail/status/751883471275032576
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Jul 9, 2016 23:40
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People are aware that Sinn Fein and the SDLP have not abandoned the desire for a unified Irish state aren't they? A change in the border arrangement will strengthen nationalist movements but both parties are committed to peaceful political resolution of the constitutional question and acknowledge the consent the principle as a cornerstone of a potential reunited Ireland - it will poke the constitutional can of worms but this will by no means lead to bloodshed based on the contemporary political climate. It may lead to more bullish political debate and reignite a debate on constitutional matters at a time when northern politics have arguably begun shifting away from the constitutional question but its not going to lead to bombs going off in the streets
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Jul 9, 2016 23:40
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Northern Ireland is not only bombs and balaclavas and if you honestly think that's all there is it you are dumb as gently caress
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Jul 9, 2016 23:42
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ukle posted:John Major, who had the whole press after him like Corbyn has now   It was only after Black Wednesday and the sleaze scandals that Major started taking real heat. LemonDrizzle fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jul 9, 2016 |
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Jul 9, 2016 23:43
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kustomkarkommando posted:Northern Ireland is not only bombs and balaclavas and if you honestly thick that's all there is it you are dumb as gently caress A land of things that begin with B.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:44
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jre posted:Where are you from ? Belfast. Lord of the Llamas posted:Again, you are the only person to mention "the troubles". The fact is that nobody knows what the post-Brexit NI/ROI border situation will look like so both sides will be making strong claims regardless of their likelihood and just like in Scotland over Indyref or the UK over EURef this will be very divisive. What I think is certain is that the concerns of the Northern Irish will be secondary to the UK government given that it will have too much already on its plate over Brexit and the pro-Brexit English pretty much don't give a poo poo. Can I prove it'll be a disaster? Do I know exactly what this disaster will look like? No. But these are the kind of conditions that disasters thrive in. No, I'm not the only person to mention the troubles, the guy whose tweets were posted to set this all off talked hysterically about how English people should worry about the impact of Brexit in NI because of the habit of Irish political problems to travel "to people in London and Dublin, in Birmingham and in Monaghan". Captain Fargle posted:It's Northern Ireland. You already know what a disaster is going to look like and that's exploding cars. Yeah, just like when power sharing broke down a few years after the GFA and the peace process totally collap- oh wait no it didn't. e: Lord of the Llamas posted:I'm not convinced the old IRA skillsets/supply chains are anywhere near operational. I wouldn't be surprised at young angry men fighting and killing each other in drunken brawls and a big dose of sectarian intimidation and vandalism though. hahaha "okay, maybe they won't start bombing each other but imagine the bar fights!!" On the bright side, maybe we can stave off the economic impact of Brexit by travelling to the end of the rainbow. Bryter fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Jul 9, 2016 |
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Jul 9, 2016 23:47
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Bryter posted:
I'm being flippant about Llamas' saying he's not sure what a disaster in NI would be like. I'm not actually saying it's going to cause an increase in car bombings.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:52
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I don't understand your cast iron confidence in what is still a fragile peace. Particularly when a disagreement about how often the union flag should be flown led to weeks of rioting ? Putting border checks back in is going to be controversial as gently caress.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:55
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jre posted:I don't understand your cast iron confidence in what is still a fragile peace. Particularly when a disagreement about how often the union flag should be flown led to weeks of rioting ? Rioting is not the troubles though and talking about a return of violence to Northerners implicitly means bombs and assassinations and on street mobilisation of paramilitaries Honestly drunken loyalist jumping on police vans ranks as a normal occurance
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Jul 10, 2016 00:07
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jre posted:I don't understand your cast iron confidence in what is still a fragile peace. Particularly when a disagreement about how often the union flag should be flown led to weeks of rioting ? I guess I just think that waiting to see if controls are introduced, and what the nature of those controls is before speculating about what the reaction will be seems sensible? And I wouldn't call my confidence cast iron, but I do think you're underestimating the robustness of the peace if you think the flag riots were a serious threat to it.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:14
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Pissflaps posted:I rarely gamble. It is a genuinely strange situation that as far as I know is unprecedented in UK politics and possibly world politics, where the leader of a major party is supported by a clear majority of that party's members but not by their MPs. What's even weirder is the Tories *have* anticipated such a scenario - their rules do have a binding vote of confidence mechanism (a big part of this current situation is that Labour have no provision for a VoC) which does exclude a leader who loses one from the subsequent election. For extra fun right now in the US we have a presidential nominee not supported by his supposed party too. It's almost as if a permanent political class is a fundamentally unstable situation in a system that at least pretends to be democratic.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:14
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Cerv posted:If the UK remains in the single market that'll work fine. But if we don't and there are now import duties to be paid on goods taken between Ireland and the UK a border enforcement becomes necessary doesn't it Would it actually be legal under EU rules for Ireland to have a customs union with a non-single-market UK? Because someone's jokingly suggested that as a solution but with an independent Scotland, and it might actually be a way out of this.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:17
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Prescott is the top story on BBC news right now. Can we have him back in the shadow cabinet?
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Jul 10, 2016 00:18
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Bryter posted:I guess I just think that waiting to see if controls are introduced, and what the nature of those controls is before speculating about what the reaction will be seems sensible? My point was I think the border being introduced is a threat, given the level of disorder caused by something as utterly banal as how often a flag gets flown.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:20
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Bryter posted:hahaha "okay, maybe they won't start bombing each other but imagine the bar fights!!" I think you're missing the loving point. Or should we be dismissing the increase in crime associated with the toxic atmosphere around the Brexit campaign because its not "proper organised" terrorism?
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Jul 10, 2016 00:26
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So if the PLP loopholes Corbyn out of the contest what are the chances of Moementum and the Unions just forming a new party? Also how long till the labour party is extinct?
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Jul 10, 2016 00:28
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I think it's probably a bit daft to pronounce from on high exactly how events in northern Ireland are going to shake out if you've not actually seen, experienced or understood events in northern Ireland up till now.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:30
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Ian Paisley Jr was suggesting that Unionists get Irish passports. If he's suggesting that, you kind of think a bungled Brexit would result in Irish unification in the best case scenario.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:31
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Crowsbeak posted:So if the PLP loopholes Corbyn out of the contest what are the chances of Moementum and the Unions just forming a new party? Also how long till the labour party is extinct? Zero chance that the unions would endorse forming a new party.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:38
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In a not too distant future *Labour splits* *PLP sue for the labour name* *2020 GE won by the newly formed JEREMY'S JAM ARMY party*
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Jul 10, 2016 00:43
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jre posted:My point was I think the border being introduced is a threat, given the level of disorder caused by something as utterly banal as how often a flag gets flown. Flags are not banal in Northern Ireland
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Jul 10, 2016 00:43
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