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Knormal posted:I think he's talking about more like when they decide Khan's a white guy or Zephram Cochrane's completely different personality between TOS and First Contact, rather than when they have to swap actors for real life reasons. If they had cast Saavik-A as, say, some Asian woman instead of another brunette Caucasian, it would be pretty distracting. And I agree with everything he said about canon, I like it when there's a rich in-universe environment to get immersed it. Otherwise it's like why bother even watching if anything that happens can be retconned later when some writer gets a different idea. I'm not talking about little things like messing up stardates or character's extended family trees or something like that, but when they can't keep straight the number of decks their starship has it just seems lazy. Yep, this is what I mean, on both points. Cochrane was completely different and it's a huge leap to believe that James Cromwell's character could have become the square jawed serious space pilot/scientist that Kirk met in TOS. There was zero reason why Cromwell's character even had to be him, other than fishing for some fannish reference points with the name, but that entirely backfired when they wrote him the way they did as a rocking Doc Brown drunk scientist. The entire story would have been just as strong if he'd had a different name, and was just another guy who contributed heavily to the development of the warp drive and Cromwell played him the same as he did. Cumberbatch was a great villain, and the story of them messing with the original 90s Augments would have been a great hook, especially if he was another guy and the shadow of Sleeping Khan loomed over the movie as a possible threat. There's also a very interesting implied but unexplored (outside of novels and comics) background of Khan as a Sikh and Indian, and casting him as a British white guy blows that up. I mean yeah, Montalban was Hispanic, but at least he was attempting to play Indian. If they had to cast Khan, it should have been as an Indian or Pakistani actor, it would have been great. Khan had a complex origin which changes with the times--in TOS making him an Indian was a boost to the idea of the future multiculturalism of Earth as championed by the international crew Roddenberry created--this was a world where in 30 years India could create a genetic superman and compete on the international stage, and even though he was a dictator he was "one of the best" and shown to be tragically noble. It was ballsy not making him a white man in the 60s--I mean, he could have been German or something. And you'll notice Khan's crew in TOS were all pretty international. Nowadays, making him Indian and letting his origins inform his character has a different nuance in real life. Either way that was taken away with Cumberbatch, because it's essentially color blind casting but for the wrong reasons and changes the character's history (unless you contrive weird plastic surgery retcons). Personalitywise Cumberbatch is more similar to Montalban than Cromwell was to Corbitt, but I just feel something was lost whitewashing him and that's a shame. I don't have an issue with Saavik being recast, stuff like that is what it is and at least Robin Curtis made an attempt to play her similarly. Recasting the original characters in JJ Trek isn't ideal either, but some (Quinto, Urban, and Cho) do a lot better than others (Pegg, Pine,) and some are just passable (Saldana, Yelchin) probably due to the lack of depth of the original characters to begin with. On the technical stuff, that's what I'm saying too. It's lame when there are official published book and online resources and people like Sternbach and the Okudas who professionally keep track of stuff, but writers and producers just end up handwaving it for "story reasons" when if you did keep to canon, it wouldn't matter. It's also dumb when you're dealing with a property where it's fans pretty much invented obsessive nerdy technical fandom. I think usually it comes down to them writing something and when they find out it's wrong being so attached to the line or concept they don't want to change, or studio suits who have a frightening lack of understanding or care for the universe laying down dictats. It's one reason why Doctor Who is so much better at this, the people who have total control are the spergiest of sperg fanboys.. And yet somehow, even though they bend over backwards to keep to canon 99% of the time, they still tell great stories that resonate with a large following internationally of casual and new fans. Funny how that works?
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Jul 10, 2016 16:22
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I don't really see a huge leap of Cochrane becoming his TOS incarnation. The movie specifically addresses it because he doesn't match their conceptions of him. He's a drunk, he's selfish, and he doesn't care about humanity. He's also incredibly damaged as a survivor of World War 3. We have no idea who he was before the world destroyed itself, maybe he used to be more like he later comes to be and the psychic trauma of the war hosed him up. Certainly by the time Archer comes to know him, he's a lot more like the historical Zephram Cochrane; it's not hard to imagine why he would change after first contact.
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Jul 10, 2016 16:37
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I think it was a great example of heroes not living up to their expectations. In later years, he's more formal because he's making public appearances. In that instance, he's just some guy building a space rocket in a post-war wasteland.
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Jul 10, 2016 16:44
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Cochrane (both versions) is kind of a stupid and outdated idea anyway. It's adorably quaint to think that something like warp drive could be "invented" by one guy in his garage. What was the last major advancement in propulsion engineering that can be unquestionably attributed to one guy working independently? I mean I know Star Trek is just American ideals in space but the myth of the garage inventor changing the world is just beyond silly when applied to something as insanely complex as warp drive. Bill Gates kicking off the proliferation of home and office computing is like inventing a new way of tying your shoes by comparison.
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Jul 10, 2016 16:52
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Is it ever stated that he single handedly invented and built the first warp engine? In first contact he had a whole engineering team (that mostly get killed in the attack). Maybe warp research had already begun prior to WW3.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:05
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Gammatron 64 posted:So I was talking to my roommate about Star Trek and the logistics of it all and I stumbled upon the most confounding mystery of Star Trek. To us, at least. I dont think it makes sense that the entire Federation is a post scarcity society with unlimited energy. Maybe just Earth and some of the core worlds. I think one of the mistakes the writers frequently made is to equate Earth and the Federation as being the same homgeneous society. Anyway, it's not really ever implied that the Federation has unlimited energy. An excess of it, maybe. Just because a technology exists does not mean that technology pervades every aspect of life. For example, theres no reason to believe that people on 24th century Earth transport everywhere rather than using vehicles. Just like we don't have nuclear powered cars, even though nuclear technology is mature. Maybe the energy costs of having billions of people transporting everywhere isn't worth it. Likewise, you probably can't replicate anything you want without limit. I'd expect that the level of technology represented on Star Trek is at the extreme end. We're seeing the cutting edge stuff that hasn't yet matured enough to diffuse into the general population. Subyng fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jul 10, 2016 |
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Jul 10, 2016 17:27
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Subyng posted:I dont think it makes sense that the entire Federation is a post scarcity society with unlimited energy. Maybe just Earth and some of the core worlds. I think one of the mistakes the writers frequently made is to equate Earth and the Federation as being the same homgeneous society. Anyway, it's not really ever implied that the Federation has unlimited energy. An excess of it, maybe. Just because a technology exists does not mean that technology pervades every aspect of life. For example, theres no reason to believe that people on 24th century Earth transport everywhere rather than using vehicles. Just like we don't have nuclear powered cars, even though nuclear technology is mature. Maybe the energy costs of having billions of people transporting everywhere isn't worth it. Likewise, you probably can't replicate anything you want without limit. I'd expect that the level of technology represented on Star Trek is at the extreme end. We're seeing the cutting edge stuff that hasn't yet matured enough to diffuse into the general population.
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Jul 10, 2016 18:38
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Star Man posted:The best episode of Star Trek was "Galaxy Quest" 
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Jul 10, 2016 19:13
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Make Sam Rockwell the new First Officer
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Jul 10, 2016 20:51
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I hope the new show takes itself seriously. Not like, grimdark or anything like that but honestly I couldn't stand how jokey Stargate became, for example. Like if they pointed out the absurdity of the flaws in their lovely writing with enough jokes then it's suddenly ok
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Jul 10, 2016 21:24
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Subyng posted:Is it ever stated that he single handedly invented and built the first warp engine? In first contact he had a whole engineering team (that mostly get killed in the attack). Maybe warp research had already begun prior to WW3. Yeah, I don't know if "lone garage inventor" is a good description of First Contact Cochrane. He had a whole little community built up around his project, it was just shabby as hell because it was middle-of-nowhere post-war Montana.
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Jul 10, 2016 21:48
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Paradoxish posted:Yeah, I don't know if "lone garage inventor" is a good description of First Contact Cochrane. He had a whole little community built up around his project, it was just shabby as hell because it was middle-of-nowhere post-war Montana. And the man was drinking himself into oblivion because he lived through loving WW3.
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Jul 10, 2016 22:21
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DS9 2x15 - the one where they beam down and nothing works because the crazy lady has a jammer or something. So they solve the problem and get ready to leave and OF COURSE nobody wants to leave because 10 years of primitive life and no medicine or anything is totally worth sticking to. UGH.
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Jul 10, 2016 22:26
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Rhyno posted:DS9 2x15 - the one where they beam down and nothing works because the crazy lady has a jammer or something. Look at this guy who's never heard the term "going native" before.
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Jul 10, 2016 22:35
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This is like, 45 minutes after yet another person died horribly. And complaints aside, Odo really is the best Trek character ever.
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Jul 10, 2016 22:53
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Rhyno posted:DS9 2x15 - the one where they beam down and nothing works because the crazy lady has a jammer or something. I hate that episode.
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Jul 10, 2016 22:56
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8one6 posted:I hate that episode. It's pretty bad, like most of the first two seasons of DS9.
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Jul 10, 2016 22:59
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Rhyno posted:It's pretty bad, like most of the first two seasons of DS9. Yeah, but the last couple of seasons were very well written and had me on the edge of my chair at times. The plot gets really interesting toward the end of the war with the Dominion, and everything is nicely resolved in the last episode. DS9 is the best ST series of them all, IMHO.
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Jul 10, 2016 23:35
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King Possum III posted:Yeah, but the last couple of seasons were very well written and had me on the edge of my chair at times. No argument man, DS9 is easily the best Trek ever.
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Jul 10, 2016 23:44
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Rhyno posted:This is like, 45 minutes after yet another person died horribly. I know. I thought that episode was pretty bad too. I just take things like "ugh, why would you want to live there?" a little too personally.
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Jul 10, 2016 23:48
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Star Man posted:I know. I thought that episode was pretty bad too. You didn't crash land on a crappy planet!
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Jul 10, 2016 23:50
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Rhyno posted:It's pretty bad, like most of the first two seasons of DS9. https://youtu.be/pXb0zcEM-rI
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Jul 11, 2016 00:12
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Like the Voyager episode that treats Janeway's murder of Tuvix as correct, that DS9 episode fails when it doesn't take the time to examine whether indoctrinated cult members would be able to make sound life choices 15 seconds after learning that their leader a fraud. The whole thing could have worked if they'd taken fifteen seconds to say that Starfleet would be sending a while squad of counselors to help them adjust.
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Jul 11, 2016 00:48
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DS9's first two seasons are probably the strongest first seasons of any Trek series since TOS, and certainly more entertaining as a whole than the vast majority of Voyager
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Jul 11, 2016 00:54
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Tighclops posted:I hope the new show takes itself seriously. Not like, grimdark or anything like that but honestly I couldn't stand how jokey Stargate became, for example. Like if they pointed out the absurdity of the flaws in their lovely writing with enough jokes then it's suddenly ok Beyond that, I hope it doesn't have any self-consciousness at all. Don't try to be cute and dance around the Star Trekkiness. Even the TOS movies at times fell prey to this, like, "Heading, sir?" *gestures vaguely* "Out there. Thataway." Although it was a little more forgivable then because we'd known the characters for 20 years and it felt a little more earned, plus it was a different time. All that would seem hokey and forced today, the more so with new characters.
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Jul 11, 2016 01:09
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EX-GAIJIN AT LAST posted:Beyond that, I hope it doesn't have any self-consciousness at all. Don't try to be cute and dance around the Star Trekkiness. Even the TOS movies at times fell prey to this, like, "Heading, sir?" *gestures vaguely* "Out there. Thataway." Although it was a little more forgivable then because we'd known the characters for 20 years and it felt a little more earned, plus it was a different time. All that would seem hokey and forced today, the more so with new characters. Yeah, the only thing that's really given me any pause about this new series is Bryan Fuller saying he wants to capture the "fun" of TOS. Like, okay, I get what he probably means, but the hokiness in the original series was mostly unintentional and the silly humor was just a result of what TV was like during that period. I don't have faith in anyone's ability to reproduce that kind of tone without it coming off as self aware and lovely. A modern Star Trek series should actually be a modern Star Trek series.
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Jul 11, 2016 01:33
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Paradoxish posted:Yeah, the only thing that's really given me any pause about this new series is Bryan Fuller saying he wants to capture the "fun" of TOS. Like, okay, I get what he probably means, but the hokiness in the original series was mostly unintentional and the silly humor was just a result of what TV was like during that period. I don't have faith in anyone's ability to reproduce that kind of tone without it coming off as self aware and lovely. A modern Star Trek series should actually be a modern Star Trek series.
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Jul 11, 2016 02:35
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Cojawfee posted:I think it was a great example of heroes not living up to their expectations. In later years, he's more formal because he's making public appearances. In that instance, he's just some guy building a space rocket in a post-war wasteland. It was a great example of that thing with heroes--and would have worked far better if we hadn't seen the guy as an "old" man 200 years later, acting totally different.
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Jul 11, 2016 02:50
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Nessus posted:What makes it modern, though, that's the question. I think you can have a drama program which isn't necessarily mired in grit or disintegrating marriages or whatever. One of Bryan Fuller's last shows had the two main characters as children losing parents on the same day in the first five mibutes of the show, every single one of his shows has been filled with endless death and tragedy, and yet somehow with the exception of Hannibal it's all been as far away from grit as possible. Pushing Daisies is the happiest, brightest show about constant death ever made. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 02:51
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MikeJF posted:One of Bryan Fuller's last shows had the two main characters as children losing parents on the same day in the first five mibutes of the show, every single one of his shows has been filled with endless death and tragedy, and yet somehow with the exception of Hannibal it's all been as far away from grit as possible. 
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Jul 11, 2016 03:16
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Astroman posted:It was a great example of that thing with heroes--and would have worked far better if we hadn't seen the guy as an "old" man 200 years later, acting totally different. Nobody undergoes character growth in fiction, especially not given 200 years to do it in.
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Jul 11, 2016 04:34
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Rhyno posted:DS9 2x15 - the one where they beam down and nothing works because the crazy lady has a jammer or something. I can actually see them wanting to stick together since they've been living as a Kibbutz for so long and probably had to come to terms with never seeing anyone from their old lives again. But the way to end that episode on a more positive note (a happy ending isn't really appropriate, "Hurrah, we've defeated the wicked witch who'd stole ten years of our lives!") would be for them to say they were sticking together for now while they worked out what they wanted to do an reconnected with the outside galaxy so they had medicine and weren't living on subsistence levels of living. And decided whether or not they wanted to reconnect with any friends or family from their pasts. You know acknowledge that there is still some issues to be worked out but they now have a chance. Not a smaltzy speech about how important community is. Having watched a lot of the early DS9 episodes again thanks to Netflix I've noticed quite a few of them have a very clumsy happy ending tacked onto them and some really wacky plots, show up, everyone remembers Move Along Home, and rumpelstiltskin , but there's also that one where O'Brien becomes a cult leader in a Bajoran village and has to fight the sky demons, or the one where they all re enact an alien coup and Sisko builds a clock.
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Jul 11, 2016 05:47
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Yeah, I'm definitely willing to give Fuller the benefit of the doubt with regards to telling serious stories while maintaining a consistent but somewhat whimsical setting and world. He's the man behind Wonderfalls, Dead Like Me and Pushing Daisies. He can definitely pull of colourful, different and a sense of the absurd when necessary. There's the possibility that Gene Coon stye fun but interesting Star Trek can't happen in 2016, but Fuller's one of the few legitimate choices that has a slight chance of doing it. At least I expect it to be interesting. Paradoxish posted:Like, okay, I get what he probably means, but the hokiness in the original series was mostly unintentional and the silly humor was just a result of what TV was like during that period. . Star Trek is certainly a product of its time, but a bunch of that hokiness and silly humour was the result of decisions to actively insert fun and lighthearted stuff into the show. T.C. fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 05:49
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T.C. posted:Star Trek is certainly a product of its time, but a bunch of that hokiness and silly humour was the result of decisions to actively insert fun and lighthearted stuff into the show. Wait, wait, are you saying The Trouble With Tribbles and A Piece of the Action were intended to be humorous?! That's crazy!
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Jul 11, 2016 06:18
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Paradoxish posted:Yeah, the only thing that's really given me any pause about this new series is Bryan Fuller saying he wants to capture the "fun" of TOS. Like, okay, I get what he probably means, but the hokiness in the original series was mostly unintentional and the silly humor was just a result of what TV was like during that period. I don't have faith in anyone's ability to reproduce that kind of tone without it coming off as self aware and lovely. A modern Star Trek series should actually be a modern Star Trek series.
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Jul 11, 2016 06:43
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Baka-nin posted:Having watched a lot of the early DS9 episodes again thanks to Netflix I've noticed quite a few of them have a very clumsy happy ending tacked onto them and some really wacky plots, show up, everyone remembers Move Along Home, and rumpelstiltskin , but there's also that one where O'Brien becomes a cult leader in a Bajoran village and has to fight the sky demons, or the one where they all re enact an alien coup and Sisko builds a clock. I think no one mentions that village one because it's the worst kind of bad: it's boring. There's nothing to remember about it except that it's bad.
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Jul 11, 2016 06:56
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Kibayasu posted:I think no one mentions that village one because it's the worst kind of bad: it's boring. There's nothing to remember about it except that it's bad. see also: the Brigadoon episode
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Jul 11, 2016 07:12
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Kibayasu posted:I think no one mentions that village one because it's the worst kind of bad: it's boring. There's nothing to remember about it except that it's bad. The village episode started the best bromance in all of trek though, so that's something.
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Jul 11, 2016 08:28
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I'm watching season 2 of TNG and I think it's funny that about halfway through they decided that Data shouldn't be completely autistic all the time.
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Jul 11, 2016 08:53
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It's unfortunate how Data regressed in the movies. Then again, the TNG movies were all pretty off on characterization, didn't Troi lose her accent?
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Jul 11, 2016 09:37
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