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I don't think editorial cares, it's not like these big events actually have any big impact.
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Jul 13, 2016 22:43
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Vision. 
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Jul 13, 2016 22:47
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JoshTheStampede posted:Every line of that book was vetted and approved by multiple levels of Marvel editorial, and every event in it was workshopped months and months ago at a writers retreat. Bendis doesn't just randomly do poo poo unilaterally as a surprise because he doesn't care. Okay, I just finished reading the issue so I'll revise the post appropriately then: Fuego Fish posted:I actually laughed when I saw the new issue of Civil War. Like, seriously, vetted and approved by Marvel editorial, what-the-gently caress-ever, it doesn't make the book's writing less dumb. "Banner's been experimenting on himself for a year to keep himself from hulking out" Really? Because if there was a writers retreat then maybe someone could have brought up "no actually he's been Hulk-free because there's a different Hulk who sucked all the gamma right out of him". Even setting that aside, having Hawkeye ice Banner was something that really just didn't sit right with me. But hey at least with him being a murderer now we can have lots of super-awkward dialogue any time he cameos and/or is mentioned in Kate Bishop's new solo!  And again, sure, whatever, maybe they planned this months ago in a secret bunker before Greg Pak even plotted out how the hell Amadeus became the Hulk, but that doesn't mean I don't get to be unhappy about subpar writing. You know, I'll take it a step further, maybe Marvel shouldn't plan events months and months in advance right after launching a whole bunch of new books with a bunch of new characters and new creative teams, because maybe, just maaaaybe, that'll lead to a bunch of mischaracterization and plot holes down the line! I don't even know why I'm upset, it's an event, a Civil War no less. No one gives a poo poo about the stakes or the buildup, they just want to get to the punching and I'm no less guilty.
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Jul 13, 2016 23:14
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Gotta have some red in that ledger, or pink, or maybe erasable red? The biggest load of bullshit is that Banner actually found a way to kill himself/The Hulk. Yeah not like there is 70 odd years of that never working out.
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Jul 13, 2016 23:47
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"Sucked all the gamma out of him" sounds way dumber.
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Jul 13, 2016 23:54
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Aphrodite posted:"Sucked all the gamma out of him" sounds way dumber. why
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Jul 14, 2016 00:04
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CharlestheHammer posted:I don't think editorial cares, it's not like these big events actually have any big impact. If this event has anything like the original's impact, it's setting up things that will still be reverberating through the entire line four years from now. It's also similar to the original in that the best things about it are nowhere near the actual central book.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:05
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It would actually be way cool if it turns out Banner found a super science method of fooling precognition and this was his way of passing the torch to Amadeus and finally committing suicide
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Jul 14, 2016 00:08
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Aphrodite posted:Hope was totally supposed to be Jean but it was scrapped. Cable adopted her. As soon as someone remembers she exists and/forgets tired of time displaced X-Men they'll pick up the ball and run with it.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:09
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Mover posted:It would actually be way cool if it turns out Banner found a super science method of fooling precognition and this was his way of passing the torch to Amadeus and finally committing suicide Well his ex-wife already tried to assassinate him a few years ago exactly because a super-science fortune teller said Bruce was going to destroy the world (arrows to the head > bullets to the head), but I will eat a  before "SHIELD" is ever relevant againe: even Betty's wikipedia entry mentions that Waid/Duggan's Hulk run was the fallout of the assassination attempt without mentioning why she did it 
Four Score fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 00:13
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Because Banner has tried to drain his gamma countless times in the past.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:18
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Aphrodite posted:Because Banner has tried to drain his gamma countless times in the past. But it wasn't Banner who finally cures Banner, it was Amadeus. And "it didn't take" was a dumb conceit used over and over to create fake melodrama and keep the Hulk, one of Marvel's few characters who is always in vogue, around. There is no real pseudoscientific reason or internal logic consistent within the setting that the Hulk is incurable or permanent. The very end of Duggan's run had Doc Green/Hulk cure every other Hulk in the world but Jen! Four Score fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 00:21
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TwoPair posted:Okay, I just finished reading the issue so I'll revise the post appropriately then: "This story has been vetted by layers and layers of It's frustrating to see experienced story tellers make mistakes like this but that's also the nature of events. Events poo poo on the characters you love, they mess up a bunch of storylines for the sake of badly written morality plays, the tie-ins are at best mediocre, and the best thing we can hope for is that it all blows over soon. In other words I'm kinda with you but there's not a lot we can do about it. ☹️
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Jul 14, 2016 00:40
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Like I'm not even that upset about Banner dying. He's been out of books for a year anyway and this will finally pull the trigger on Cho going full berserker Hulk, which is something that the book's been teasing since the start I just wish it made some kind of sense.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:52
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And I'm guessing that might be the real schism, as Stark will argue that they don't know if Ulysses saw Banner or Cho Hulking out? (Not reading the main mini, so if we literally saw the vision and it was Bruce, I suppose this is moot).Four Score posted:But it wasn't Banner who finally cures Banner, it was Amadeus. And "it didn't take" was a dumb conceit used over and over to create fake melodrama and keep the Hulk, one of Marvel's few characters who is always in vogue, around. There is no real pseudoscientific reason or internal logic consistent within the setting that the Hulk is incurable or permanent. The very end of Duggan's run had Doc Green/Hulk cure every other Hulk in the world but Jen! And yet Thunderbolt has his powers back in the autumn.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:56
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Maybe it wasn't clear but I didn't mean the "it was vetted" as a defense of it as a good story, just that people tend to ascribe undue amounts of power to writers (specifically Bendis) as if he's cooking this poo poo up himself and not getting permission. I thought #3 was good and don't have any issue with the Hulk stuff, but in general the main series has been dumb whereas most of the tie ins I have read have been decent to good and Choosing Sides was fun.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:59
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HIJK posted:"This story has been vetted by layers and layers of This doesn't make any sense in the context of story planning. It's not collaborative, they tell the writers what they have to do when a big event is going to use their characters. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 01:00
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you guys shouldn't read obviously bad books as they come out.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:01
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Gaz-L posted:And I'm guessing that might be the real schism, as Stark will argue that they don't know if Ulysses saw Banner or Cho Hulking out? (Not reading the main mini, so if we literally saw the vision and it was Bruce, I suppose this is moot). Well, Secret Wars did cure death for a whole heap of characters. If it retconned "Hulk" or Ross decided to stick his nuts in the gamma microwave again for USAvengers, that doesn't mean once a Hulk, always a Hulk.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:02
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I assume either the same experiments used to make the American Kaiju get used on Ross or AIM has some widget, maybe based on the SHIELD enchancement tech we saw in the first arc, that lets him become the Red Hulk.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:05
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Ross got his Red Hulk powers from the Leader and MODOK. It's likely AIM can do the same thing to him again.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:05
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Yes, but Ewing made sure to mention the SHIELD dudes had gamma enhancements in that first story, and he's too careful with that stuff for it not to come back. Oh, and they've announced creative teams and premises for the 'Fallen' and 'Accused' tie-ins. The former is by Pak and Bagley, and is about the Hulk family (Jen, the Rosses, the Warbound, Skaar) mourning and dealing with Bruce's death. The latter is about Matt Murdock investigating and defending Hawkeye for the murder, by Guggenheim and Garry Brown & Ramon Bachs.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:09
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Killing Bruce off is not dumb. Killing him off this way is dumb. I'm still pissy that he wasn't the new Iron Man.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:18
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Aphrodite posted:This doesn't make any sense in the context of story planning. I think it makes sense that editors will support each others' decisions and story ideas because that's what they want to see happen on the page, and not necessarily because it makes sense plot-wise and/or has consistent characterization for individual characters and stories. When I read AvX, it made very little sense, but it got published because that's what the editors wanted to see (for various economic reasons I'm sure). I'm not really trying to drag Marvel editorial, I'm just pointing out that they have preferences and weaknesses that result in weirdness like with Bruce Banner.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:21
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Vision: I cant remember the last time I read a big two comic and actually believe they meant it when someone dies.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:27
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Rhyno posted:Killing Bruce off is not dumb. Killing him off this way is dumb. I'm still pissy that he wasn't the new Iron Man. Doom as Iron Man is going to loving own.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:37
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Doom as Iron Man is going to loving own. No doubt. But I really wanted Iron Hulk.
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Jul 14, 2016 01:39
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Four Score posted:Well, Secret Wars did cure death for a whole heap of characters. If it retconned "Hulk" or Ross decided to stick his nuts in the gamma microwave again for USAvengers, that doesn't mean once a Hulk, always a Hulk. So you have never read a Hulk story and have no passing knowledge of the Hulk I assume? Let me clue you in real quick, it's a curse, the kind you can't get rid of because it's an allegory for the self destructive and bestial nature of mankind that we can not shake free of even today, a nature that all our technological progress has enhanced not abated. The most advanced thing we build are bombs, bombs make us monsters. We are the Hulk
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Jul 14, 2016 01:40
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Rhyno posted:No doubt. But I really wanted Iron Hulk. Putting Hulk in the Hulkbuster seems like a gimme.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:15
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Aphrodite posted:Putting Hulk in the Hulkbuster seems like a gimme. The rumor was going to be Bruce in the suit and he'd only Hulk out in extreme moments.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:19
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On the plus side, I was inordinately entertained by the Deadpool vs. Black Panther fight in today's Deadpool.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:27
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Well, I read the issue. Honestly not as much of a clusterfuck as I'd imagined. Maybe just a 6.2/10 on the clusterfuck scale. I still maintain that CWII hasn't really been a story as much as it's been a narrative series of nothings that's trying really hard to be something. There's no conceptual build-up or pay-off for anything. Hulk's just gonna kill people for no reason I guess because a vision said so, despite being completely absent from everything so far. Clint kills him despite having had equally little presence in the storyline, and the flashback of him and Banner discussing Banner's assisted suicide comes out of nowhere. Hey, what's going on with Rhodey and She-Hulk and Thanos...y'know, the stuff that's actually happened in the previous issues up to this point? Who gently caress knows. I hate to pull the same old BENDISAMIRITE claptrap over and over again but we've been stuck with this guy helming these kinds of events for ten years now and he's shown no signs of any improvement whatsoever from his Avengers Disassembled days; if anything he might even be worse than before. There's no story here, no escalation or deescalation or ebb or flow, the only reason any part of this is shocking is because there's no sense of cause-and-effect at all so anything will just happen at any point for no reason. That's not a narrative, that's a child making up daydreams on the fly, and it's furthered compounded by these characters just acting incredibly stupid all the time. Why in heck show up at Banner's doorstep with 83906 superheroes and government agents dressed for a fight? Anyone with any ounce of sense would realize how bad an idea that is. But it'll just happen in this issue because that's the best way for everything to get hosed up and Bendis is chronically incapable of writing these veteran, adept superheroes as anything but anxious amateurs who gently caress things up.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:29
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I kinda think the dividing line between a story and a random jumble of events is whether you like those events. It's kind of an arbitrary thing. Which is fine, you don't have to like it, but acting like its objectively bad or narratively adrift is a little much.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:39
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JoshTheStampede posted:I kinda think the dividing line between a story and a random jumble of events is whether you like those events. It's kind of an arbitrary thing. ... What? No it isn't. It's very easy to discuss what makes a story work, how the themes, events and characterization all flows together and what makes it good. You can argue about if those things happen but it isn't about "if you like it or not" and I certainly recognize stories as stories that I hate.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:45
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ImpAtom posted:... What? No it isn't. Yeah but if you think the events of #3 are cool you're going to justify ways they make sense. If you don't you're going to say it's random and weightless and nothing matters.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:48
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I like how the only books I had time to read during break as Old Man Logan and Gwenpool. Hey here's an issue dealing with Logan's survivor guilt, but also showing that he's got a network of friends who love the hell out of him and will always be there for him, and then Gwenpool somehow makes a book that is literally nothing but pop culture references and self awareness into something really good.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:49
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Doom as Iron Man is going to loving own. We now have a mainstream Marvel Universe where Doom is a hero and Reed Richards is the villain.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:01
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My shop didn't have a copy of Vision for me, but the owner said he'd have it for me next week. A shame, because I was really looking forward to that one.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:42
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SilverSupernova posted:We now have a mainstream Marvel Universe where Doom is a hero and Reed Richards is the villain. I'm pretty sure that's been the case in every single one of their interpretations, tho
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Jul 14, 2016 03:42
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JoshTheStampede posted:Yeah but if you think the events of #3 are cool you're going to justify ways they make sense. If you don't you're going to say it's random and weightless and nothing matters. ... no? That is the point of providing detail and context to your arguments, like BrianWilly did. The argument of "Someone will defend it, ergo all opinions are identical and meaningless" is dumb.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:49
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