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Yoshifan823 posted:Superman is a Methodist midwestern farmboy. Spider-Man is from the big city. I relate much more with Superman. Superman is, first and foremost, an alien that could level cities on a whim if he wanted to and there's little we could do to stop him. Him being a "Methodist midwestern farmboy" is window dressing.
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Jul 18, 2016 02:42
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Yaws posted:Superman is, first and foremost, an alien that could level cities on a whim if he wanted to and there's little we could do to stop him. Him being a "Methodist midwestern farmboy" is window dressing. Superman being a Methodist midwestern farmboy is why he doesn't level cities on a whim. Also Spider-Man became unrelatable the moment he sold his marriage to the loving devil.
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Jul 18, 2016 02:50
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Yaws posted:Superman is, first and foremost, an alien that could level cities on a whim if he wanted to and there's little we could do to stop him. Him being a "Methodist midwestern farmboy" is window dressing. Ok, Bill.
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Jul 18, 2016 02:54
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Equeen posted:Superman being a Methodist midwestern farmboy is why he doesn't level cities on a whim. Wow. Thank god he didn't land in New York City or some other ungodly hellhole. I also live in the rural Midwest (Iowa whattup!) and if Superman had landed here he'd probably be a racist libertarian.
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Jul 18, 2016 02:55
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Yaws posted:Wow. Thank god he didn't land in New York City or some other ungodly hellhole. Guy from Iowa calls NYC a hellhole lmao
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Jul 18, 2016 02:57
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Yaws posted:Wow. Thank god he didn't land in New York City or some other ungodly hellhole. Yeah, it's a good thing Superman didn't end up anything like you. We really dodged a bullet!
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Jul 18, 2016 03:07
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Superman's from a family of 1940s rural socialists, or at least New Deal FDR-supporters. Much like Captain America's parents were member of the american communist party.
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Jul 18, 2016 03:09
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Yaws posted:Wow. Thank god he didn't land in New York City or some other ungodly hellhole. Kansas is worse than Iowa (I should know, I'm from Iowa as well), and there are plenty of people who aren't terrible here. Yaws posted:Superman is, first and foremost, an alien that could level cities on a whim if he wanted to and there's little we could do to stop him. Him being a "Methodist midwestern farmboy" is window dressing. OK, Batman from the first two-thirds of BvS.
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Jul 18, 2016 03:11
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Yoshifan823 posted:Superman is a Methodist midwestern farmboy. Spider-Man is from the big city. I relate much more with Superman. He's methodist? I thought he was Episcopalian.
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Jul 18, 2016 03:21
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He's episcopalien.
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Jul 18, 2016 03:38
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Kulkasha posted:He's methodist? I thought he was Episcopalian. http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Superman.html That link is really really long, but basically says that Superman was definitely raised Protestant, and depending on the story is generally Methodist or a more generic Protestant.
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Jul 18, 2016 04:17
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"You're not Superman, you know", from Raimi's film, gets right to the heart of it. Spiderman is Superman - exactly the same character - except a certifiable dumbass. He doesn't do the actual superhero stuff "ironically." He does tell a lot of jokes, and there is distancing oneself from the subject inherent in that. That amounts to a personality trait, though; both are not entirely comfortable with being superhuman vigilanties. Superman broods, Spider Man tells jokes. This is part of being "Spider"-Man. You're quite wrong that he is Superman. Superman is a Christian superhero. The Spider is a pagan trickster figure (Athena, Anansi, off the top of my head; but he essentially could be Crow Man, Fox Man, or Coyote Man instead). Superficially, this simply means he is less powerful than Superman; a pagan god rather than a monotheistic one. However, it also comes with a different role, and far more fallibility. Tricksters get themselves into trouble just as often as they run circles around someone else. That's why he fucks up and gets his father-figure killed, and then kills his first love trying to be Superman when he is not. You can certainly prefer one to another, but it's apples to oranges (at least on the level you prefer to read things at). Also you come off as inherently disliking humour here, which is weird. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 04:19
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Timeless Appeal posted:Honestly, while I think Stan was a hindrance for Kirby on FF in a lot of ways, he balanced out Ditko's Randian anger to make Spider-Man pretty whole. You're right about the level of rage. David Brothers wrote an awesome piece about Spider-Man awhile back about how the Amazing Fantasy #15 is really structured like a horror book. There are no super heroics, just cruel twist that teaches a moral. He goes on to be clear that Peter's origin makes him come off as a villain if he was in any other book. The problem is that ended the moment Ditko left the book. After that Peter got a lot more generic, as did pretty well everyone else but Mary Jane who was counter culture as imagined by the man who wrote Captain America back when Nazis were still a thing. Mind you the subtext that MJ knew who Peter was the entire time is great and informs a lot about her character that you might not read into otherwise. I've stopped my complete rereading of Spider-Man after the Spider-Car got introduced but I plan to be picking it back up soon. I'm really curious how Peter develops after the Romita era officially ends. The 60s and early 70s of Spider-Man is talked to death, and Venom from the 80s and the 90s are well known for ole Peter, but the late 70s through the 80s is largely ignored and forgotten nowadays. Minus some tales like Kraven's Last Hunt anyways. I do find it strange how often writers go back to the well of Spider-Man's early days, when Superman and Batman barely resemble how they used to be and you never see remakes and redoes of their earliest adventures. Also I feel like I should make it clear- I do love Spider-Man. I think he's great. I just think he's the most interesting when he's an angry, frustrated everyman who gets pissed off at injustice and is plagued with guilt over the genuine mistakes he has made in his life. Jokey happy Peter that's carefree, like what the writers keep trying to write him back into such as with One More Day, isn't something he ever really was. Burkion fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 04:46
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Spider-Man 2 is one of the best superhero movies. I rewatched it the other day and I was so struck and pleased by how low scale and stakes the whole thing is (which is a funny thing to say about a movie where New York is almost destroyed--but that's never really the emphasis of course). Every superhero movie these days ends with a six way four stage battle, but in S-M 2 it's just a conversation with Harry and a trip to the docks. And then Ock quickly face turns and sacrifices himself. Spiderman's train stopper is one of the most genuinely heroic moments in superhero film, and the business with the helpful passengers comes off way more organically than the same beat in S-M 1. There are lots of little, human moments in the movie--like when Peter admits he was complicit in Uncle Ben's death, and Aunt May doesn't immediately forgive him; she gets really upset and the scene ends. They kind of reconcile later but there's no real catharsis and you get the sense this will always be a little distance between them. Similar with the cute neighbor--I feel like someone on these forums suggested that in a Marvel movie she'd end up being Black Cat in Spider-Man 5 or whatever. Here she's just a warm figure who reminds Peter about his responsibilities and the importance of the people you're close to.
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Jul 18, 2016 05:44
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Hodgepodge posted:He doesn't do the actual superhero stuff "ironically." He does tell a lot of jokes, and there is distancing oneself from the subject inherent in that. That amounts to a personality trait, though; both are not entirely comfortable with being superhuman vigilanties. Superman broods, Spider Man tells jokes. Parker absolutely does behave as a superhero ironically. Before you look at the attitude, you first have to look at what the character actually does. Despite being extremely similar to Superman (lower-class upbringing, works at a newspaper, one foster parent, red and blue costume, etc.) Spiderman behaves as Paul Kersey in Death Wish, with rope powers instead of a handgun. And so, like Kersey, his main accomplishment is probably a minor dip in mugging statistics. 'Power levels' can't explain the difference there, so we have to move on to the real point that you brought up: Spiderman remains 'all too human', not really committing to the superhero idea. He's too afraid of losing his job, not being able to pay his rent, and so-on. The irony becomes a part of that: he doesn't take seriously the idea of 'a Spiderman in every neighborhood'.
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Jul 18, 2016 06:20
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Parker absolutely does behave as a superhero ironically. Before you look at the attitude, you first have to look at what the character actually does. The level of "power," as I said, isn't the explanation. It's a reflection of an archetypal difference between a messiah and a trickster, which represent very different forms of empowerment. Superman flies, even into space. Spider Man also effectively flies, but he does so using his native environment. That is a difference in "level" of power, but that's meaningless. One is a fantasy of universal, abstract freedom; the other of mastery of a local environment in which one's existence is embedded. A good portion of his villains are animal figures as well, or elements of the urban environment, and his arch-nemesis is a goblin; a minor fairy spirit. The relative power they wield isn't relevant. Osborn is an antagonistic version of Tony Stark and in some cases this has been made quite literal, while one of his foes is mostly just generically strong and wears a Rhino suit. What matters is that an animal trickster fights other totemic animals, incarnations of environmental features (Sandman and Electro), and pagan spirits. The trickster is a figure of subversive resistance on the part of the subaltern, although in this case relatively speaking in the competitive and inherently privileged context of the social hierarchy of New York; essentially mocking the more powerful behind their back. Unlike Kent, Parker is in conflict with all the elements of life in an urban jungle that was (and probably remains to some extent) the locus of global power and influence. The Green Goblin/Hobgoblin is the inherent but unspoken imbalance of power between his family and that of his closest friend. Dr. Octopus is his college professor. Venom is the relentlessly competitive standards of masculinity in which a working class student who works as a freelance photographer is in social competition with the scions of Wall Street. Unlike Clark, Parker is in constant conflict with his boss; that Parker is Spider Man and Jameson doesn't suspect it is Parker's longest-running joke. By being Spider Man, he reclaims the power he utterly lacks in the workplace from Jameson. This is what tricksters do. I mean, you might be sensing the inherent limitation here; tricksters take back power through cleverness and humor when more open forms of resistance are not possible. Messiahs upend the system entirely. Given a choice, one would generally prefer the latter. However, you have to be in a relatively strong position to exalt a messiah (or a pagan Herculean figure), and you don't just lie down and accept your fate for however long it takes to create social justice. Neither is really "more powerful" per se; tricksters are as a whole masters of turning overt strength against itself, after all. They play very different roles.
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Jul 18, 2016 07:47
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Hodgepodge posted:tricksters are as a whole masters of turning overt strength against itself, after all.  
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Jul 18, 2016 08:45
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Hodgepodge posted:Unlike Clark, Parker is in constant conflict with his boss; that Parker is Spider Man and Jameson doesn't suspect it is Parker's longest-running joke. By being Spider Man, he reclaims the power he utterly lacks in the workplace from Jameson. This is what tricksters do. This almost perfectly describes the dynamic between Perry and Clark in BvS though.
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Jul 18, 2016 08:52
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Jeez, this looks like the end of Ghostbusters. All sony movies look alike these days.
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Jul 18, 2016 09:23
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Superman is an Everyman figure. Yeah, he has power to destroy - everyone does. He's just man squared.
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Jul 18, 2016 09:24
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Those sure are two images from Spiderman movies.
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Jul 18, 2016 09:58
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Invalid Validation posted:I don't think most of the people who post in this thread like superheroes or the comics they spend a lot of time reading.
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Jul 18, 2016 11:16
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Chairman Capone posted:I like how at the end of Winter Soldier, Black Widow's big finale scene is her telling the Senate "gently caress you for thinking you have the right to have oversight over the military" and then in Civil War she's on the pro-oversight side and the only reason given is an awkward line of dialogue where she just says that she changed her mind. Kurzon fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 12:19
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Kurzon posted:I think in Winter Soldier it was more "the military is compromised so I'm exposing all its dirty secrets". She doesn't hate authority per se. It's also ignoring the fact that she doesn't believe in the pro oversight side and when push comes to shove, sides against them.
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Jul 18, 2016 13:28
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Burkion posted:I do find it strange how often writers go back to the well of Spider-Man's early days, when Superman and Batman barely resemble how they used to be and you never see remakes and redoes of their earliest adventures. But if you mean actually going back to those early comics, it's because Batman and Superman aren't fully themselves yet--Batman much more than Superman. Marvel heroes were the same. Hulk, X-men, and the Fantastic Four took time to develop. But Spider-Man from Stan Lee through Conway feels like a surprisingly cohesive story from the very start. EDIT: JMS and Bendis had a really good trajectory for Spider-Man for awhile in terms of him getting over some of his teenage angst. Actually getting a grown up job that uses his full potential, realizing a secret identity is sort of juvenile, joining the Avengers. But it was all temporary and One More Day happened and Spidey's a teenager forever.
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Jul 18, 2016 13:37
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Andrew Garfield is my favorite Spider-Man who started out amazing and promising then got hosed in a poorly handled sequel.
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Jul 18, 2016 14:46
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TetsuoTW posted:Those sure are two images from Spiderman movies. I find it a little odd to call a figure strongly associated with amazing feats of physical strength and a spectacular ability to engage in physical combat a trickster figure.
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Jul 18, 2016 14:49
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Sir Kodiak posted:I find it a little odd to call a figure strongly associated with amazing feats of physical strength and a spectacular ability to engage in physical combat a trickster figure. John McClane from Die Hard's a trickster figure because he cracks jokes and pushes the 3.5th wall.
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Jul 18, 2016 15:01
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Timeless Appeal posted:Well, depends what you mean there. The well of retelling Superman's origin is a pretty dry one as is rewriting Batman's early years.
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Jul 18, 2016 15:27
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Kurzon posted:The well is not dry, they just don't want to go anywhere new. For instance, why has no Batman origin story ever explained why Bruce Wayne had to become a vigilante and not a cop? From Batman Begins, "People need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy and I can't do that as Bruce Wayne. As a man, I'm flesh and blood, I can be ignored, I can be destroyed; but as a symbol... as a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting."
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Jul 18, 2016 15:34
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But that's ignoring the resources and support that a police department can provide. What makes Bruce Wayne hate the system?
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Jul 18, 2016 15:36
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Kurzon posted:The well is not dry, they just don't want to go anywhere new. For instance, why has no Batman origin story ever explained why Bruce Wayne had to become a vigilante and not a cop? He's an aristocrat.
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Jul 18, 2016 15:38
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Kurzon posted:But that's ignoring the resources and support that a police department can provide. What makes Bruce Wayne hate the system? The system is broken. He says that in the same movie. They let the killer of his parents go free. The judges and police in his city are mostly corrupt.
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Jul 18, 2016 15:41
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Kurzon posted:But that's ignoring the resources and support that a police department can provide. What makes Bruce Wayne hate the system? He believes that there needs to be a dramatic example, a symbol, to shake Gotham out of its apathy. A cop is just a man, flesh and blood, and can be ignored, destroyed, or corrupted. So someone needs to be more than a man. He doesn't need the resources and support the police department can provide, so it should be him. It's just not that complicated. He thinks Gotham needs things that a cop can't provide. He thinks he can do things the police can't. The justification for why he thinks he needs to break the law is all the illegal poo poo he does, all of which is explained by specific goals in trying to save Gotham. A huge portion of Batman Begins is spent talking about this, like the importance of wearing a mask, which a cops can't do. He doesn't hate the system, per se, he just thinks it incapable of dealing with the magnitude of the problems Gotham faces. And, as Hundu points out, he's not temperamentally suited to subordinating himself to that system either. That comes out strong as hell in Batman v Superman in particular, but it's present in the Nolan movies as well. That he wouldn't work as a cop because he's a loving lunatic is a lot of what you see in Burton's take on the character. All of these movies dig into why he does what he does.
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Jul 18, 2016 15:43
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Kurzon posted:But that's ignoring the resources and support that a police department can provide. What makes Bruce Wayne hate the system? Pretty sure in one of the original flavor origins Bruce joins the FBI but quits a couple or few months in because all he learned was procedures and rules where his interest lied in catching criminals and saving people. He saw it as what he wanted to do but severely handicapped and passionless and so he left to do things his way.
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Jul 18, 2016 15:46
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cvnvcnv posted:Pretty sure in one of the original flavor origins Bruce joins the FBI but quits a couple or few months in because all he learned was procedures and rules where his interest lied in catching criminals and saving people. He saw it as what he wanted to do but severely handicapped and passionless and so he left to do things his way. He didnt quit a few months in; that's where he learned detectiving and associated skills. He learned ninjaing and that associated skillset through his time doing other things. Learning about criminal justice was important to him. THe other people are right about him wanting to lead change through a symbol, rather than being bogged down with the sort of thing a future Commissioner Gordon had to deal with through a corrupt police and justice system.
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Jul 18, 2016 16:44
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:He's an aristocrat. Make it a kind of fish-out-of-water police procedural, then. Weirder people have been cops on successful TV shows. Actually, make it a classic buddy cop movie! Sgt. Bullock doesn't want a new partner, and certainly not pampered millionaire's son Bruce Wayne! His scores from the Academy are the highest ever, but everyone knows he bribed his way through. No, no! "Gotham Police Academy"! Aspiring policeman Bruce Wayne studies hard and plays hard, but when all of the cops in Gotham become trapped in the sewers somehow, it's time for the rookies in Gotham Police Academy to graduate fast!
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Jul 18, 2016 17:06
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Sir Kodiak posted:I find it a little odd to call a figure strongly associated with amazing feats of physical strength and a spectacular ability to engage in physical combat a trickster figure. If you think about it, the second pic would be a perfect example of "turning overt strength against itself" if he proceeded to crush the cop with the car
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Jul 18, 2016 17:12
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The second panel is pretty much action comics #1 cover isn't it? Why do you wear a spider on your chest? *smiles* It's not a spider, it's a symbol. On my planet it means jokes. greatn fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 17:56
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Edit: double post
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Jul 18, 2016 17:59
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