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I love Say Anything, but hate Max Bemis' Worst X-Man Ever. It's a good thing I don't give a gently caress about My Chemical Romance or I'd be nervous about Gerard Way's upcoming DC stuff. (well, okay, his wife is the bassist for like, my favorite band ever, but that's removed enough that it won't spoil anything for me) Edit: While going through a tumblr that posts comic stuff, I just saw a Crossed cover with Max Bemis listed on the cover. Now that is a disappointment. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jul 19, 2016 |
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Jul 19, 2016 18:03
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Madkal posted:See also Will Eisner who created the character Ebony for The Spirit and later regretted it a lot and dialed out the racism from the strip. He talks about it a bit, and the use of stereotypes in general, in Fagan the Jew. Eisner was still pretty defensive about it in 1972. 
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Jul 19, 2016 18:31
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The Action Man posted:Eisner was still pretty defensive about it in 1972. He seems to assume the problem is entirely with being the Spirit's Watson, which...is a misreading of criticism, to be sure. It's worth noting that Eisner was Jewish, so, while Jewish people can be as virulently racist as any white person, he almost certainly had experience with being the target of racism himself, and probably felt like what he was doing was leagues above other white written black characters, which is probably true. I mean, he wasn't Whitewash Jones:   Basically I think Eisner was a not racist guy in the first half of the century who stubbornly felt like he still wasn't racist when the standards got higher in the second.
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Jul 19, 2016 18:46
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WickedHate posted:He seems to assume the problem is entirely with being the Spirit's Watson, which...is a misreading of criticism, to be sure. It's worth noting that Eisner was Jewish, so, while Jewish people can be as virulently racist as any white person, he almost certainly had experience with being the target of racism himself, and probably felt like what he was doing was leagues above other white written black characters, which is probably true. I mean, he wasn't Whitewash Jones: That one pager from 1972 by Eisner is trying to defend Ebony as he was originally portrayed in the 40s. There is no update to his appearance to make him look less like a lawn jockey. There is no attempt to make his dialog less like something out of Huckleberry Finn. I don't see how that compares to Whitewash since Jack Kirby didn't attempt to defend Whitewash Jones three decades later. He instead created characters of color that weren't racist stereotypes.
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Jul 19, 2016 18:59
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The Action Man posted:That one pager from 1972 by Eisner is trying to defend Ebony as he was originally portrayed in the 40s. There is no update to his appearance to make him look less like a lawn jockey. There is no attempt to make his dialog less like something out of Huckleberry Finn. I said he didn't understand what people were actually complaining about.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:06
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The Action Man posted:Eisner was still pretty defensive about it in 1972. I do think this is an amazing example of someone missing the wood for the trees. Like the complaints being made by the interviewer are accurate, that aren't in any way elevated by Ebony doing a really good job. In fact they are still there with how he draws and speaks. I will say that Eisner does manage to perfectly capture the smug tone and bloated vocabulary of an faux-intelectual/journalist in this strip.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:10
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Decius posted:Haven't we discussed that a few weeks ago already? They refused to define her through her sexuality, basically calling it "this is the book for bisexuals, read it!", not that they refused to call her bisexual. Because if you read the Angela run it was full of their loving relationships. The three protagonists were two bisexual women and a trans lesbian woman, who in the end formed a loving family, while one of the bi-sexual women searched for her lost female lover from a erased reality. That's not a case of "you could see it if you read the subtext in a certain way" like with Kitty Pryde or "let's not dwell into the male loving side of bisexual too much/at all" like with Deadpool or Hercules. At the risk of going into an argument over a subject that I really don't care too much about....how is Hercules bi-sexual? Like I remember some outrage about this online a while ago, but I discounted it as I never understood where people were coming from. Like is Herc supposed to be bi-sexual based on the joke featuring Northstar from his funeral during Greg Pakk's run? Or is it something to do with how in the mythologies that Herc was supposed to have slept with men? Since Marvel is free to pick and chose which aspects of mythology they do and don't use. After all,they do it all the time with all their mythological characters. Zeus being the Greek name for the God, but Hercules being his Roman name as opposed to Herakles, so already Marvel's Hercules reads as a greatest hits mix of the mythological strong man.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:15
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Having never read a Hercules comic in my life, there's no reason not to make him bisexual even if the movement for it came from thin air. He was bi in myth, so what does explicitly defining him as straight add? How is not being into dudes too an essential part of his characterization?
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Jul 19, 2016 19:18
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Pak's run hinted at the biseuxality more than just the one northstar joke--other characters made some absolutely not subtle jabs at Amadeus Cho being eromenos and there's another page of Herc getting uncomfortable and embarrassed while dwelling on the face of Iolaus, because Amadeus reminds him of that former lover.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:30
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Herc is totes a power bottom.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:30
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WickedHate posted:I said he didn't understand what people were actually complaining about. Actually you wrote it. The Question IRL posted:I do think this is an amazing example of someone missing the wood for the trees. Like the complaints being made by the interviewer are accurate, that aren't in any way elevated by Ebony doing a really good job. In fact they are still there with how he draws and speaks. The comic is framed to make the opposing side look foolish for even asking a question about race and stereotypes in the first place, so of course the last panel is a Scott Adams-level self congratulatory "my feeble SJW circular logic can't compete with your infallible reasoning" power fantasy.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:31
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Madkal posted:As for Herge I remember watching a documentary about him and it talked about how he met a Tibetan and became friends with the guy. Through that friendship he realised that he was dealing a lot in stereotypes and needed to stop doing that. Afterwards he started doing a lot more research into his locations. It's a reason that Tintin in Tibet is held in high regards. You're thinking of Zhang Chongren, who was a Chinese expat living in Belgium. The first four Tintin stories (Tintin in the land of the Soviets, Tintin in the Congo, Tintin in America, Cigars of the Pharoah) were all based on stereotypes and very propagandizing (although I heard Tintin in the land of the Soviets actually ended up being kind of accurate about the Bolsheviks? I haven't read it). Anyway, he announces that his next book is going to be set in China, and he's introduced to Zhang by an acquaintance of Zhang's who thought that the next Tintin book should maybe not be deeply racist. Herge and Zang became friends and cooperate in making the next book a really accurate, contemporary depiction of China, then-occupied by Japanese forces. It marks the point where Herge starts being very meticulous about researching the locations that his stories take place in. So that's how The Blue Lotus was made, and why it's so much better and far less racist than the first four Tintin stories. The character that Herge put in the story to tribute Zhang, 'Tchang Chong-Chen', does come back in Tintin in Tibet, so that might be why you're confusing the two stories.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:43
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Red Bones posted:You're thinking of Zhang Chongren, who was a Chinese expat living in Belgium. The first four Tintin stories (Tintin in the land of the Soviets, Tintin in the Congo, Tintin in America, Cigars of the Pharoah) were all based on stereotypes and very propagandizing (although I heard Tintin in the land of the Soviets actually ended up being kind of accurate about the Bolsheviks? I haven't read it). Anyway, he announces that his next book is going to be set in China, and he's introduced to Zhang by an acquaintance of Zhang's who thought that the next Tintin book should maybe not be deeply racist. Herge and Zang became friends and cooperate in making the next book a really accurate, contemporary depiction of China, then-occupied by Japanese forces. It marks the point where Herge starts being very meticulous about researching the locations that his stories take place in. So that's how The Blue Lotus was made, and why it's so much better and far less racist than the first four Tintin stories. The character that Herge put in the story to tribute Zhang, 'Tchang Chong-Chen', does come back in Tintin in Tibet, so that might be why you're confusing the two stories. Thanks. Yea, it had been years since I saw that documentary and I remember them talking about his friendship with Zhang and also the Tibet book being a more personal book for Herge so I probably confusedly combined the two things.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:48
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also here's the eromenos thing
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Jul 19, 2016 19:59
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Also, I can't find the Will Eisner intro to Fagin the Jew online, so I will just transcribe it here, with relevance to the character of Ebony.Eisner posted:
There is a bit more in the intro by that mostly concerns the use of sterotype in cartooning, and why he decided to write Fagin the Jew.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:00
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Madkal posted:Also, I can't find the Will Eisner intro to Fagin the Jew online, so I will just transcribe it here, with relevance to the character of Ebony. Clearly, I need to read Fagin the Jew.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:15
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The Question IRL posted:At the risk of going into an argument over a subject that I really don't care too much about....how is Hercules bi-sexual?  Also he's from ancient Greece and then ancient Rome and they had very different ideas about sexuality than we did, and he had male lovers in the mythology.
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Jul 19, 2016 22:02
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Also he and Wolverine are the one true ship.
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Jul 19, 2016 22:42
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Herc's bisexuality is a pretty recent thing and it's very unlikely to come up often in the future unless a writer decides to focus on that aspect of him, but it also perfectly fits in with his character and origins, and even retconned, plausibly deniable representation is good.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:29
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If he's the actual God Hercules (and not just an alien that thinks it's a god) then if my mythology class memories are right he did sleep with men. Because who could resist that beard?
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Jul 19, 2016 23:31
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I was obviously talking about it being a retcon in the context of Marvel. They've taken a looot of liberties with the mythical characters already, and making zero mention of Hercules sleeping with men was one of them. Still waiting on Loki getting pregnant from a horse being made canon.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:35
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Lurdiak posted:Still waiting on Loki getting pregnant from a horse being made canon. I would be incredibly shocked if that's never been mentioned.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:37
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Lurdiak posted:Still waiting on Loki getting pregnant from a horse being made canon. While not the same, there was a bit of a rumor that JMS wanted Loki to seduce Thor while he was a woman which would produce and heir through which Loki would have taken over Asgard.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:37
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WickedHate posted:I would be incredibly shocked if that's never been mentioned. There was a... I wanna say Matt Fraction? out of continuity comic that basically adapted highlights of the prose edda but with the Marvel versions of the characters, and it did feature Loki turning into a lady horse to distract a bricklayer's horse, but he did not gently caress it and sleipnir had a totally unrelated origin. Rhyno posted:While not the same, there was a bit of a rumor that JMS wanted Loki to seduce Thor while he was a woman which would produce and heir through which Loki would have taken over Asgard. That's really Arthurian.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:40
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Didn't they mention herc being bi in the recent post sw run? I vaguely remember it but i could be making it upRhyno posted:While not the same, there was a bit of a rumor that JMS wanted Loki to seduce Thor while he was a woman which would produce and heir through which Loki would have taken over Asgard. This sounds p weird and gross
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Jul 19, 2016 23:42
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Rhyno posted:While not the same, there was a bit of a rumor that JMS wanted Loki to seduce Thor while he was a woman which would produce and heir through which Loki would have taken over Asgard. That is disgusting and terrible, jesus gently caress JMS.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:44
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Lurdiak posted:That's really Arthurian. Except Morgan le Fey wasn't a dude possessing the body of Arthur's true love.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:49
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WickedHate posted:That is disgusting and terrible, jesus gently caress JMS.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:52
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the loki and thor sex and love child is ok because they are only adopted brother and sister.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:53
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Rhyno posted:Except Morgan le Fey wasn't a dude possessing the body of Arthur's true love. In Excalibur, Arthur was conceived when his father used magic to make him seem like his le Fey's dad to gently caress her mom. While le Fey watched from the shadows and was able to see through the magic. Easy to see why she and her half brother didn't get along.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:53
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In other horrible things that didn't happen, Jeph Loeb's original idea was for the Red Hulk to be Betty Banner who transformed into a giant raging man. Editorial clamped that one down as well.
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Jul 20, 2016 00:00
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I think they should've done that Hulk sorry, except red hulk form explicitly has penis and gets someone pregnant while raging out
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Jul 20, 2016 00:02
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Which one was the one that was originally going to be about a racist white guy who turns into a black man? Or something similar.
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Jul 20, 2016 00:03
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Mover posted:I think they should've done that Hulk sorry, except red hulk form explicitly has penis and gets someone pregnant while raging out Maybe one where Ross turns into a woman and had to learn not to be such a chauvinistic piece of poo poo
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Jul 20, 2016 00:06
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Rhyno posted:In other horrible things that didn't happen, Jeph Loeb's original idea was for the Red Hulk to be Betty Banner who transformed into a giant raging man. That's not a bad idea. It's way better than all the girl hulks inexplicably become sexy super models.
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Jul 20, 2016 00:08
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WickedHate posted:I love Say Anything, but hate Max Bemis' Worst X-Man Ever. It's a good thing I don't give a gently caress about My Chemical Romance or I'd be nervous about Gerard Way's upcoming DC stuff. (well, okay, his wife is the bassist for like, my favorite band ever, but that's removed enough that it won't spoil anything for me) Oh my god you're talking about a band and not the movie.
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Jul 20, 2016 00:08
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Roth posted:Which one was the one that was originally going to be about a racist white guy who turns into a black man? I definitely remember this being its own thing, but it reminds me of the Punisher storyline where he gets cosmetic surgery to go deep cover and ends up looking like a black man and learning some harsh lessons about race in America.
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Jul 20, 2016 00:13
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Roth posted:Which one was the one that was originally going to be about a racist white guy who turns into a black man?
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Jul 20, 2016 00:17
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Aphrodite posted:Oh my god you're talking about a band and not the movie. Uh, yeah? Not in my top ten but pretty decent. Too bad it's founder is way shittier at making comics than music.
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Jul 20, 2016 00:19
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Roth posted:Which one was the one that was originally going to be about a racist white guy who turns into a black man?  Wanna guess what speech bubble got edited out in that bottom middle panel there?
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Jul 20, 2016 00:25
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