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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In the case of Nerdwriter, it's because he defines 'characterization' as 'settings'. Take this further - what would he then mean by the claim that Civil War is Batman v Superman, but with settings?
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Jul 27, 2016 20:47
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Pirate Jet posted:Also, Civil War used its dead mom point as a result of a "twist" they revealed to you in the scene immediately prior, as opposed to BvS which built up to it over the course of the entire movie - but Snyder doesn't "earn his moments." It's interesting because BvS shows you the traumatic, life defining event in Bruce's life that we are all familiar with, then immediately shows you another traumatic, defining moment in the very next scene. Then it spends the rest of the film showing how damaged Bruce has become, and how now he has even gone into an even darker, more obsessive place (more flashbacks/dreams about the murder, Alfred talking about how he went off the deep end). Then like you said, the mother twist allows him to pull back. Civil War does show us Tony dealing with his parents deaths and then he says that technology has helped him come to terms with it (he described the VR thing he is showing as a type of billion dollar therapy session). Then he goes into the whole registration crusade but this isn't really well tied in with his grief, which it really could have been. There was a real opportunity to show how the death/memory of his parents is driving him, or how he sees the Avengers as his new family and how that makes their betrayal more personal, how his parents were big proponents of government oversight, etc. Instead it's used as a macguffin basically to get Tony to attack Bucky at the end of the movie. Like in CW it's not handled terribly or anything but it is pretty basic plot progression without a lot of characterization to back it up: 1) Tony's parent's died -> 2) he is sad -> 3) he finds out they were murdered by that guy! -> 4) he is mad! Serviceable but not exactly a well fleshed out character arc. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Just lol, if you think the Martha scene was well-written. The scene itself was clunky with Superman calling his mom "Martha", but everything leading up to it is a well supported character arc. The point was BvS didn't "earn" its moments, not that its moments are flawless.
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Jul 27, 2016 20:48
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What is it about Snyder that turns good men...cruel? We may never know.
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Jul 27, 2016 20:49
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Jenny Angel posted:Take this further - what would he then mean by the claim that Civil War is Batman v Superman, but with settings? Well, I seem to remember titlecards in Civil War outlining where and when everything was. Maybe he was in a theater where the sound quality conveniently dropped every time they mentioned a place in BvS.
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Jul 27, 2016 20:50
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It's specifically the characterization that makes the Martha scene any good at all.
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Jul 27, 2016 20:50
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Dolph, take a memo on my Newton
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Jul 27, 2016 20:53
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:It's specifically the characterization that makes the Martha scene any good at all. I was gonna say it's also the fact that Batman's got robot ghost echoes on his voice during his freakout, but realistically that too is an extension of the characterization, so your point holds up
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Jul 27, 2016 21:01
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It's that he goes from revealing that he's going to take pleasure in killing an alien to being forced to recognize that he's gone off the deep end.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:04
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Guy A. Person posted:Civil War does show us Tony dealing with his parents deaths and then he says that technology has helped him come to terms with it (he described the VR thing he is showing as a type of billion dollar therapy session). That "memory" was altered for the vr demo, he never dealt with it. It's how he wished his last time seeing them had actually gone.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:09
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K. Waste posted:Same tired bullshit about shot and scene length, same groveling fantasy about this esoteric idea of 'true' or 'living' or 'breathing' art or whatever, boiling down to the same asinine complaints. This whole post is a mute point
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Jul 27, 2016 21:20
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RBA Starblade posted:That "memory" was altered for the vr demo, he never dealt with it. It's how he wished his last time seeing them had actually gone. Yep. It's clear he never truly dealt with it, but I thought after the VR sequence he talked about all his issues in the past tense and then said something along the lines of "it took me years to come to terms with this". He definitely made the "billion dollar therapy session" crack. Like he's saying "I'm totally fine guys" but he's clearly bluffing. But my bigger point was, his actions coming out of this scene don't tie in with the rest of his actions during the movie, until they are triggered at the end. It's set up to be knocked down but we don't see how if at all it informs his actions in siding with registration and fighting with his friends. And his weird semi-antagonistic relationship with his dad would be perfect to explain his personal relationships. The only time it comes up again is when he makes the joke to Cap about his father always talking about him, and there's the hint that maybe there is some resentment there (Cap being the son papa Stark wishes he had) but it's more used to show how Cap is willing to make concessions - until he hears about SW - not to actually show real strife between the two.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:23
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Guy A. Person posted:Yep. It's clear he never truly dealt with it, but I thought after the VR sequence he talked about all his issues in the past tense and then said something along the lines of "it took me years to come to terms with this". He definitely made the "billion dollar therapy session" crack. Like he's saying "I'm totally fine guys" but he's clearly bluffing. Oh yeah, gotcha then. I thought you were saying that he had dealt with them using it, I agree with you on the rest.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:28
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BvS is flawed, but characterization isn't a big part of it, really. The way the characters behave makes sense for how they're depicted onscreen (or also in Man of Steel, in Superman's case). You can dislike the characterization, but it's there. Particularly in Batman's case, there's all kinds of work (some of it fairly subtle - like the images of Superman as a destroyer in his nightmare) to show that he's been really hosed up by Superman's presence. I could maybe see something thinking that Lex's reason for hating Superman is insufficient or that we should know how he discovered their secret identities, but otherwise I don't see lack of characterization as being a problem in BvS. Even Wonder Woman who gets comparatively little screentime has well established motivation for her behavior and her actions.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:30
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RBA Starblade posted:Oh yeah, gotcha then. I thought you were saying that he had dealt with them using it, I agree with you on the rest. Hahah yeah sorry I was letting the italicized "says" do a lot of heavy lifting on what I meant there, I should have been clearer.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:32
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:What is it about Snyder that turns good men...cruel? We may never know. The man likes the same poo poo I like but he can bench 300 pounds! Actually, that's a good question. I'd like to see him direct something under a pseudonym and see what the reaction to the film is. Then see the reaction to that when it is revealed he directed.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:33
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Just lol, if you think the Martha scene was well-written. I never said it was well-written*, I said it was built up to over the entire course of the movie, but Nerdwriter says it "wasn't earned." Movies are not sentient. They cannot "earn" things. That means nothing, it's gibberish. *Even though it is.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:41
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The concept of a story earning its payoff is not nonsense.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:43
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As someone who somehow didn't know that Supermans mothers name was Martha, that particular revelation was a bit of a  moment for me. Thus, as stupid as it may seem, I was as befuddled as Batman was.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:45
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Jimbot posted:The man likes the same poo poo I like but he can bench 300 pounds! I don't know who this Snack Zyder is, but I've got a good feeling about him! Also, I'm hungry now.
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Jul 27, 2016 21:53
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If this was comics, there'd be a one-off issue explaining about Pa Kent's youth and how he met a cute lady and the fact that her name is 'Martha' ends up somehow significant and pivotal in his decision to court her and/or the lightweight conflict in the story. Alternatively, a "What If Supes' Mom Was Named Brenda" where Bruce just kills him after hearing "they're gonna kill...Brenda" and then he has to watch Doomsday eat everything.
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Jul 27, 2016 22:00
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:They definitely have interns working on Starwipe. I just googled it & apparently it actually shut down last month so RIP Starwipe.
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Jul 27, 2016 22:01
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Electromax posted:If this was comics, there'd be a one-off issue explaining about Pa Kent's youth and how he met a cute lady and the fact that her name is 'Martha' ends up somehow significant and pivotal in his decision to court her and/or the lightweight conflict in the story. He still has a bat-grenade (and one bat-kryptonite grenade) launcher and the spear I'm sure it'll work out. 
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Jul 27, 2016 22:03
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He also emailed Diana
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Jul 27, 2016 22:14
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RBA Starblade posted:He still has a bat-grenade (and one bat-kryptonite grenade) launcher and the spear I'm sure it'll work out. Well, and Luthor only unleashed Doomsday because Bats didn't kill Supes. His entire thing was "no one can be both all-powerful and all-good" because it threatened his bitterly cynical view of the world. Luthor intended that either Bats would kill Supes, proving Supes isn't all-powerful, or Supes would kill Bats, proving Supes isn't all-good. He only took the Doomsday option when neither of those things happened.
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Jul 27, 2016 22:41
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Cythereal posted:Well, and Luthor only unleashed Doomsday because Bats didn't kill Supes. His entire thing was "no one can be both all-powerful and all-good" because it threatened his bitterly cynical view of the world. Luthor intended that either Bats would kill Supes, proving Supes isn't all-powerful, or Supes would kill Bats, proving Supes isn't all-good. Nah, Lex was all in on the suicide pact. Whether Superman lived or died, Doomsday was coming.
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Jul 27, 2016 22:54
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Burkion posted:Nah, Lex was all in on the suicide pact. My interpretation was that Lex fully expected Superman to kill Batman, instantly exonerating him from Doomsday's creation. What we don't know is if Lex had any type of control, fail-safe, or if Doomsday was loyal to Lex, tho I'd argue "yes" based on the fact of Doomsday's instantly going after Superman and not at all going after Lex. He seemed to understand his purpose and who his master was and if so, it's possible he would have settled into a role of being Lex's dragon as opposed to rampaging endlessly.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:04
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I'm just gonna post the Lord of the Rings video because it's good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7BkmF8CJpQ
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Jul 27, 2016 23:07
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cvnvcnv posted:My interpretation was that Lex fully expected Superman to kill Batman, instantly exonerating him from Doomsday's creation. What we don't know is if Lex had any type of control, fail-safe, or if Doomsday was loyal to Lex, tho I'd argue "yes" based on the fact of Doomsday's instantly going after Superman and not at all going after Lex. He seemed to understand his purpose and who his master was and if so, it's possible he would have settled into a role of being Lex's dragon as opposed to rampaging endlessly. You might want to Uh rewatch the movie or at least that scene First thing Dooms tries to do is murder the poo poo out of Lex.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:10
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Jul 27, 2016 23:12
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https://youtu.be/DRCdvnz-wss I don't see the punch as being at Lex. He and Superman are standing inline, Lex closer, Doomsday roars and punches toward Superman who seems to be ready and advancing, Lex flinches because ofc a person would. If that was Superman saving his enemy, the movie didn't express that well at all.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:17
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Superman isn't standing in line with Lex, he's standing behind him. The punch is clearly being thrown at Lex.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:20
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That REALLY looks like Doomsday is just trying to punch Lex and then Superman throws himself in the way to save him.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:20
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cvnvcnv posted:https://youtu.be/DRCdvnz-wss There's literally a shot of him punching directly at Lex. 
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Jul 27, 2016 23:21
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I guess I'll concede to consensus, I just read it differently is all given there's not even slight acknowledgement of his being saved after Superman was red-eyed and wanting to kill Lex earlier. Feels like we'd get a one second reaction shot of Lex realizing what had just happened.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:27
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cvnvcnv posted:I guess I'll concede to consensus, I just read it differently is all given there's not even slight acknowledgement of his being saved after Superman was red-eyed and wanting to kill Lex earlier. Feels like we'd get a one second reaction shot of Lex realizing what had just happened. About 30 minutes before this scene, Lex says verbatim "no man in the sky ever saved me from daddy's fists and abominations!" You've already been given Lex's viewpoint. This scene is the counterpoint. If you've seen Man of Steel, the eye-lasers thing appears to happen when Kryptonians get really pissed off (see: Superman not being able to move the fight out of Smallville and being pinned down, Zod flipping his poo poo during the Metropolis fight). It's a symbol of red rage, the "dark side" of the character made real. It's also why Superman doesn't win the laser eye duel with Doomsday - you can't outrage the "dark side" of Lex Luthor! Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jul 27, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 23:28
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cvnvcnv posted:I guess I'll concede to consensus, I just read it differently is all given there's not even slight acknowledgement of his being saved after Superman was red-eyed and wanting to kill Lex earlier. Feels like we'd get a one second reaction shot of Lex realizing what had just happened. The movie doesn't dwell on it because Lex wouldn't. He doesn't realize/care that Superman saved him, but the important thing is Superman did. EDIT: quoted the wrong post!
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Jul 27, 2016 23:31
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Who else would Doomsday be punching at? If he's swinging at Superman he's going to come up like 10 feet short, because Superman is standing way behind Lex.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:32
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cvnvcnv posted:Feels like we'd get a one second reaction shot of Lex realizing what had just happened. Literally the entire world was saved by Superman and Lex goes around stating that he's never been saved by some man in the sky. He is fundamentally incapable of appreciating Superman.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:32
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cvnvcnv posted:https://youtu.be/DRCdvnz-wss Actually, the film expressed it very directly and simply, and you're convoluting things by basically writing Lex out of the visual sequence. Like, notice how you've managed to not only completely ignore shot composition and montage, but also write out the significance of the character blocking.     Notice how this shot-reverse-shot marginalizes Clark while focusing on Lex and Doomsday, both caught in the flashing, sparking lighting scheme. It's after this exchange of shots that we cut to Clark's reaction, realizing as an outsider looking in what is about to happen.     Doomsday breaks free of his restraints and the shot immediately zooms out from a medium close on him to a wide shot that tightly frames him and Lex, looking directly at him, Lex's eyes closed as if prepared for the sweet embrace of death. Notice distinctly, also, that Clark doesn't just randomly fly at Doomsday and start fighting. Doomsday takes a deliberate swing at Lex, and in a split second Clark saves Lex. 
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Jul 27, 2016 23:34
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Lex repays Kal-El's kindness by immediately contacting an interstellar demon-type dude and convince him to come destroy/enslave Earth. That dude is the worst.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:36
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