|
Yeah but at least he didn't vote Trump
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2016 23:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 21:35 |
|
|
Lots of great information and perspectives here. I've been processing the film for less than 24 hours and am not very knowledgeable about Superman and his cast so this is all really helpful, thanks 
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2016 23:39
|
|
|
And as a know-nothing I'll say that I loved "Martha" and the entire motif placing the gun in Bruce's hand. Exceptionally realized and very striking as the revelation hits him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 00:00
|
|
|
cvnvcnv posted:And as a know-nothing I'll say that I loved "Martha" and the entire motif placing the gun in Bruce's hand. Exceptionally realized and very striking as the revelation hits him.  fellow know-nothing who was just as enamored by the "Martha" reveal as I was. It sounds so dumb on paper, but for the small percentage of us who thought they knew everything about these characters, it was an m night shyamalan level twist.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 00:09
|
|
|
The Martha moment worked for me, I think because it really had never occurred to me before then that their mother's names were the same. I guess I knew on some level, but I never thought about it until that exact moment. So it was a major whoa reaction, which was exactly I guess what Bruce was supposed to be feeling.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 00:11
|
|
|
greatn posted:Yeah but at least he didn't vote Trump Lex would only vote for himself. It's the only person he trusts. The producers of Agents of Shield said that they can use "classic Inhumans" on their show now. I guess the movie is really not happening at all.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 01:25
|
|
|
The key to understanding the Martha scene is that Batman is realizing something about himself. The film helpfully puts a big clue right on the screen by showing Batman's triggered memories, but this still isn't enough for detractors to think beyond "Their mothers share a name and therefore Batman suddenly likes Superman lol." It's also a subversion of expectations in the Ultimate Edition; it turns out words do get through to him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 01:27
|
|
|
The execution in that scene's pretty lacking all around.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 01:30
|
|
|
The Martha scene is a slightly clumsily delivered bit of characterization and arc-capping that still manages to be better character writing than literally anything in the marvel cinematic universe
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 01:40
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:The execution in that scene's pretty lacking all around. The clunkiest part to me is that it's weird for Clark to call his mother by her first name in his dying moments. If he'd called her "mom" then you would lose the message that Batman has become the gunman in the alley, but it might have been worth it. Though you would also have to lose the lines just before this moment when Batman asks a rhetorical question about what Superman's parents taught him. He'd have to think of Superman incapable of having anything like a familial relationship for that to work. I was watching a video today where a guy who works for the LA Times movie section was talking about how Justice League shows how WB is responding to fans who "want their heroes to be heroic" and how Superman and Batman weren't heroic in Man of Steel or BvS. While I get it if they didn't feel heroic to you as a viewer, that's very different from saying they aren't. Superman saves the entire planet and even rescues people in his formative years in Man of Steel. And he sacrifices himself to save the planet in BvS. Not to mention saving the man who's threatening to murder your mom without a moment's hesitation. It's more applicable to Batman, but practically his first appearance in the film as Bruce Wayne is an act of heroism. I get disliking Snyder as a director and storyteller, but it's like his movies make people just focus on how their Batman/Superman wouldn't do x so they stop watching the movie or something. MeatwadIsGod fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Jul 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 02:12
|
|
|
I do still think the Martha line feels awkward, but it did just occur to me that it kind of parallels Man of Steel in characterizing Superman. Right before Pa Kent dies, Clark gets into that argument where he says "You're not my dad," etc. I think it kind of makes sense that in Clark's darkest moments he starts fixating on being a weird alien and feels like he doesn't belong and doesn't have a real family (i.e. he won't even call his mom "mom"). I honestly think a lot of what makes people so mad about the movie is that it makes them feel really weird and awkward. I think the Martha scene is actually such a problem for people not because of a character saying something unrealistic but because it violently pops the fantasy bubble Bruce has been living in and we're left feeling just as dazed and embarrassed and stupid as he does. The Apocalypse dream sequence is similarly disorienting, and I think a lot of audiences get really angry when stuff like that happens. I just love it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 02:33
|
|
|
The world these characters inhabit is also apologetically jaded and cynical. Instead of being all accepting of Superman, people have different reactions to him. I feel like the people who are distrustful of Superman mirror the people who hated his depiction in Man of Steel. The movie feels like a natural continuation and response to the response of Man of Steel, which is why I loved it as a sequel to Man of Steel despite thinking Superman needed another solo film before this one happened.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 02:38
|
|
|
the Martha scene makes people mad because the people getting mad are exactly the kind of hideous nerdlord shitfucks who touch themselves to the idea of batman being an invincible genius chessmaster godman, so being violently reminded of the fact that Batman acting exactly how they want him to is bad and indicative of him being a Bad Guy is upsetting to them.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 02:40
|
|
|
I don't understand why Superman would say, "Save mommy!" like a 4yo calling 911.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 03:09
|
|
|
cvnvcnv posted:I don't understand why Superman would say, "Save mommy!" like a 4yo calling 911. Ehhh. I mean, it's not uncommon for people to call out for their mothers before dying (there are accounts of people doing it in WWII, for instance) so it wouldn't be crazy for him to say "he's going to kill my mom" or "you have to save my mom." I think what irks people about the line is that it isn't as humanizing using her first name in a scene where humanizing Superman is what gets Batman to snap out of it. I still think the scene mostly works as-is if you read it as just Bruce getting a PTSD-type trigger that kinda breaks him just by hearing the name, but whatever. I think part of me will always like BvS if only because it's the first Batman movie where Batman is the most compelling character. Turning him into this vengeance-driven and world-weary figure who's also the lodestone for Darkseid ruled. I also think it was cool that he wasn't some clinical chessmaster but someone who was utterly lead astray by his emotions in every respect. MeatwadIsGod fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Jul 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 03:22
|
|
|
I read an old interview with Dan Jurgens on Doomsday, and he said he thought it would be interesting to have Superman face a villain who could beat him down, instead of the typical ones who challenged him with kryptonite, super-tech, or magic. Thing is, there were already plenty of such villains in the lore: Bizarro, Zod, Mongul, Doomsday... Why not use one of them?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 03:42
|
|
|
MeatwadIsGod posted:Ehhh. I mean, it's not uncommon for people to call out for their mothers before dying (there are accounts of people doing it in WWII, for instance) so it wouldn't be crazy for him to say "he's going to kill my mom" or "you have to save my mom." I think what irks people about the line is that it isn't as humanizing using her first name in a scene where humanizing Superman is what gets Batman to snap out of it. I think Superman saying "Save my mother" would have been more powerful than "Save Martha". The whole film sets up Bats not being able to see anything other than Superman's alien nature. Having Superman, in his moment of death pleading with Batman, not to spare him, but save his mother instead, would have been just as effective, narrative wise, at snapping Bats out of her murder rage. He would see Superman, for the first time, as not someone alien, but as someone human, who has a mother that he holds above his own existence. Batman wasn't able to save his own mother, but now he could save someone else's.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 03:43
|
|
|
Davros1 posted:I think Superman saying "Save my mother" would have been more powerful than "Save Martha". The whole film sets up Bats not being able to see anything other than Superman's alien nature. Having Superman, in his moment of death pleading with Batman, not to spare him, but save his mother instead, would have been just as effective, narrative wise, at snapping Bats out of her murder rage. He would see Superman, for the first time, as not someone alien, but as someone human, who has a mother that he holds above his own existence. Batman wasn't able to save his own mother, but now he could save someone else's. Not really. He knows Superman has a mother. He even references Superman's parents earlier in the scene. That "Martha" bit is important not because it humanizes Superman but because it puts Batman in the shoes of the person who killed his own parents. Which makes your last sentence true.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 03:50
|
|
|
Kurzon posted:I read an old interview with Dan Jurgens on Doomsday, and he said he thought it would be interesting to have Superman face a villain who could beat him down, instead of the typical ones who challenged him with kryptonite, super-tech, or magic. Thing is, there were already plenty of such villains in the lore: Bizarro, Zod, Mongul, Doomsday... Why not use one of them? At the time of the Death of Superman, Bizarro had died, Zod had died (and was from an artificial reality) and he'd already demonstrated a physical superiority to Mongul. They wanted an unknown character to do it and leave an air of mystery after he was gone.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 03:52
|
|
|
LesterGroans posted:Not really. He knows Superman has a mother. He even references Superman's parents earlier in the scene. That "Martha" bit is important not because it humanizes Superman but because it puts Batman in the shoes of the person who killed his own parents. Which makes your last sentence true. But how does Superman know this again? Like what is his reasoning for using his own mothers name instead of "mom"? Who talks like that? A literal alien that probably deserves a chest spear. Or a writer trying to hamfist as hard as they can.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 03:54
|
|
|
Batman didn't view Superman as a human, let alone consider he would have human parents. A cry for mommy would have made Batman think "Good. I'm glad they're killing Glorpella."
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 03:55
|
|
|
Davros1 posted:I think Superman saying "Save my mother" would have been more powerful than "Save Martha". The whole film sets up Bats not being able to see anything other than Superman's alien nature. Having Superman, in his moment of death pleading with Batman, not to spare him, but save his mother instead, would have been just as effective, narrative wise, at snapping Bats out of her murder rage. He would see Superman, for the first time, as not someone alien, but as someone human, who has a mother that he holds above his own existence. Batman wasn't able to save his own mother, but now he could save someone else's. Batman doesn't care that Superman has a nameless, faceless mother, the same he mocked a moment before, along with whatever confidences she and Jonathan tried to impart on him. It's the direct connection to Bruce's first trauma that he was once living out again right there that penetrated his tyrannical tunnel vision.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 03:59
|
|
|
bring back old gbs posted:But how does Superman know this again? Like what is his reasoning for using his own mothers name instead of "mom"? Who talks like that? A literal alien that probably deserves a chest spear. Or a writer trying to hamfist as hard as they can. Superman doesn't know. But he hopes that Batman will try to help his Martha even if he does kill him. It's a little forced, but it's easy to see why he'd give an actual name instead of "Mom" if he thought he was gonna be a kabob in a minute.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:03
|
|
|
bring back old gbs posted:But how does Superman know this again? Like what is his reasoning for using his own mothers name instead of "mom"? I bet your parents taught you that you mean something, that you're here for a reason. My parents taught me a different lesson, dying in the gutter for no reason at all. Clark probably researched him long before that fight too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:04
|
|
|
bring back old gbs posted:Who talks like that? Detective No. 27 posted:Batman didn't view Superman as a human, let alone consider he would have human parents. A cry for mommy would have made Batman think "Good. I'm glad they're killing Glorpella."
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:05
|
|
|
cvnvcnv posted:Not everyone goes thru life clinging to the vernacular of an infant, especially as an adult talking to another adult about yet another adult when these people don't even know each other. It's also highly reductive to call people by what they are as opposed to who they are. There are times and places for both ways, and it didn't seem out of place at all to me. Of course not, you're bending over backwards trying to defend a poorly written scene. There was simply no real reason for him to call her by name triggering BatPTSD. It happened because a writer said it did which seems like bad storytelling to me. Have you never heard an adult call their parent mother or father? Like for instance Bernie Ecclestone's step mother is currently kidnapped in Brazil, do you think he went into the police station yelling "they kidnapped Aparecida!!" Nobody talks like that, infantile vernacular or not. bring back old gbs fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jul 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:09
|
|
|
bring back old gbs posted:It happened because a writer said it did which seems like bad storytelling to me. This is a poo poo critisism. All fiction happens because a writer said it did.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:16
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Just lol, if you think the Martha scene was well-written. The only issue is with Superman's second line: "Find him... Save Martha..." This repetition is what makes it seem like he's taking time to rethink and rephrase what he's saying, for clarity (and doing a bad job of it). Try the scene again, without that specific line, so that you have Batman yelling impotently at an unconscious Superman: Batman: You were never a god. You were never even a man. Superman:You're letting them kill... Martha... Batman: ...what does that mean? [Superman passes out] Batman: Why did you say that name? Why did you say that name? [Superman's very unconcious] Batman: Martha?! Why did you say that name?! Why did you say that name?!! Lois: It's his mother's name! It's his mother's name. Jenny Angel posted:Take this further - what would he then mean by the claim that Civil War is Batman v Superman, but with settings? Well as the video said, the reality of a setting is measured in uninterrupted runtime. BVS's settings are shown too briefly to be immersive, so they are unrealistic. And that makes for bad characterization. Effectively, Nerdwriter experiences characterization by becoming a character himself - by 'immersing himself into the setting' (in the case, a simulation of the offices of the Daily Planet) alongside the characters. Such things as the imagery and the actors' performances are a distraction from this goal. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jul 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:19
|
|
|
People also seem to be overlooking the fact that Bruce didn't know that Superman was Clark then, only Lex did. That's the entire point of Lois rushing in shouting "it's his mother's name!" Shouting "you're letting them kill Martha" is a neutral statement that doesn't clue Bats in on his identity, even though Lois comes in and makes that moot. It's a scene that works metaphorically and diegetically, aside from nebulous, subjective stuff like "uh, it was executed poorly. Yeah. That's it."
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:26
|
|
|
Superman's secret identity isn't even that hard to figure out in this universe. It's an open secret in Smallville, we saw the process Lois had to figure it out in MoS, and Lex figured it out no problem. It's barely even a thing in these movies. Yet Bat"World's Greatest Detective"Man didn't even bother looking into what this alien does in his off time. His crusade has blinded him too much.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:30
|
|
|
I agree with that, but I also think the whole "World's Greatest Detective" point is a loaded statement in discussions about modern Batman. He hasn't been a detective in a very long time, and hasn't needed to since he went from spending his time being judge/jury/executioner for crooks who were able to skirt the law (for better or for worse) to fighting interdimensional supergods. There's not much need for vigilantism when someone saunters up to earth and says "okay, so. I plan to eat your galaxy." Batman in BvS is NOT the world's greatest detective, but that should have been apparent once he decided Superman was guilty of crimes he couldn't even decide on. And like I just pointed out, the character hasn't been a detective for decades now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:37
|
|
|
Eh, as you point out, there's multiple different versions of Batman across all media, and even in comics multiple titles focusing on different aspects of the character. Still, you're right because in the DCU, he's only the world's greatest human detective. Within the context of BvS, Alfred even points out that Bruce Wayne is getting more results than Batman.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:43
|
|
|
cvnvcnv posted:Not everyone goes thru life clinging to the vernacular of an infant, especially as an adult talking to another adult about yet another adult when these people don't even know each other.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 04:54
|
|
|
bring back old gbs posted:Of course not, you're bending over backwards trying to defend a poorly written scene. There was simply no real reason for him to call her by name triggering BatPTSD. It happened because a writer said it did which seems like bad storytelling to me. Why would someone who knows Batman's secret identity say "You're letting him kill Martha?"
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 06:43
|
|
|
Toady posted:Why would someone who knows Batman's secret identity say "You're letting him kill Martha?" There's definitely part of me that wonders if this is what was going on, though I don't know that I buy it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 06:44
|
|
|
Pirate Jet posted:I agree with that, but I also think the whole "World's Greatest Detective" point is a loaded statement in discussions about modern Batman. He hasn't been a detective in a very long time, and hasn't needed to since he went from spending his time being judge/jury/executioner for crooks who were able to skirt the law (for better or for worse) to fighting interdimensional supergods. There's not much need for vigilantism when someone saunters up to earth and says "okay, so. I plan to eat your galaxy." Does Batman even have to be in the Justice League? From what I've gathered, the Justice League and the Justice Society books were originally meant to give less popular characters more exposure (it worked sometimes - Hawkman got his own title for a while). Megastar members like Superman and Batman were just part-timers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 07:03
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:There's definitely part of me that wonders if this is what was going on, though I don't know that I buy it. "You're letting him kill Martha." The wording is specific and provocative. Afterward, Superman goes back to calling her "my mother." Batman seems dazed by Superman's insight and is enamored with him for the rest of the film. It's the kind of psychological play Batman would use on a supervillain. Toady fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Jul 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 07:32
|
|
|
bring back old gbs posted:Of course not, you're bending over backwards trying to defend a poorly written scene. There was simply no real reason for him to call her by name triggering BatPTSD. It happened because a writer said it did which seems like bad storytelling to me. Superman was trying to talk Batman down and explain the whole kidnapping/blackmail situation to him before he got gassed with kryptonite and started fighting for his life. He says "save Martha" because he wants his mother to survive and he knows that Batman is still a fundamentally good person even as he's about to be killed by him. And as was noted by Pirate Jet, Batman doesn't know who Superman is so "save my mom" doesn't communicate anything useful in the few seconds before he thinks he's going to die.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 07:40
|
|
|
Toady posted:"You're letting him kill Martha." The wording is specific and provocative. Afterward, Superman goes back to calling her "my mother." Batman seems dazed by Superman's insight and is enamored with him for the rest of the film. It's the kind of psychological play Batman would use on a supervillain. Is there anywhere else in the movie that he makes use of knowing Batman is Bruce Wayne? Because they make a point of establishing it at the party, then reminding us right at the start of the fight, so it would make sense if it was leading up to that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 07:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 21:35 |
|
|
Martha is a fairly common name and most children think of their mothers as "Mom".
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2016 09:06
|
|