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watho posted:From my own anecdotal evidence: on HLM1 no cops will actually touch the scanner if no players are in the basement. At the very least, if you're doing a good job of clearing out cops topside few if any will make it down the vents intact. Alternatively you can have some fun with a trip mine build and stick them inside the vents. 
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Jul 27, 2016 07:25
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Like train heist, the game spawns a set of enemies to plant C4. Take them out before they can do it, and the vents (and basement) will be untouched. Alternately, let police into the basement, then head topside- they are almost completely unable to path back out.
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Jul 27, 2016 07:38
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Or just bring a LMG. The waves beelining for the vents are really predictable and easy fodder.
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Jul 27, 2016 13:28
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Discendo Vox posted:FS doesn't have any escapes, apparently. It doesn't. Watchdogs either but I guess dogs day 2 is technically the escape.
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Jul 27, 2016 15:33
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CSGO folks have started making skins for payday 2 guns, and the result is that there are now a bunch of very nice ones in the workshop. Now's a good time to give it a look and vote for what you like- otherwise don't be surprised if dreck winds up in the community skin safe!
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Jul 27, 2016 15:52
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I kind of wouldn't mind some more story-ish missions in the game. They usually end up being more memorable for me, like Hox Break or Hotline. I'd like to see a heist centered around WInters and the PD taking the gang down.
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Jul 27, 2016 20:24
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Plan Z posted:I kind of wouldn't mind some more story-ish missions in the game. They usually end up being more memorable for me, like Hox Break or Hotline. I'd like to see a heist centered around WInters and the PD taking the gang down. A heist where you break yourself out of prison something something one of the 20 other members of the crew planted your equipment
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Jul 27, 2016 20:26
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Plan Z posted:I kind of wouldn't mind some more story-ish missions in the game. They usually end up being more memorable for me, like Hox Break or Hotline. I'd like to see a heist centered around WInters and the PD taking the gang down. Them introducing different Captains would be pretty cool, but I imagine any story related to that is on-hold until they do. And it's been how long since someone first posted images of Bruce Willis Cop? 
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Jul 27, 2016 20:31
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The OG diamond heist remake will hopefully be Christmas themed, and introduce the Bruce Willis Cop
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Jul 27, 2016 21:19
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BillmasterCozb posted:The OG diamond heist remake will hopefully be Christmas themed, and introduce the Bruce Willis Cop So that means we'll have The Diamond, The Diamond Store, and The Diamond Heist? Seems like these heist names are just a diamond dozen. (I'm sorry)
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Jul 27, 2016 22:22
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If we're talking original heists, Heat Street will basically be Goat Simulator Day 1, Panic Room is likely to still have that one annoying half-hidden cop in the corner that the helicopter pilot will keep demanding you clear, and the Green Bridge escape will be the run to the van on Breaking Ballot x10.
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Jul 28, 2016 04:26
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I found a pubbie OK Lab Rats where the host wasn't a whiny bitch who left as soon as someone died, we rode it out for a bit while various randoms came and went through the other two slots and I eventually made out with 4.5 million XP!! A nice surprise on the way to infamy 7.
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Jul 28, 2016 06:27
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Plan Z posted:I kind of wouldn't mind some more story-ish missions in the game. They usually end up being more memorable for me, like Hox Break or Hotline. I'd like to see a heist centered around WInters and the PD taking the gang down. I joked to Sykic that they should make an EDF themed heist the one where you lose your old Safehouse for the new one -- by blowing up the dry cleaner during a huge raid when someone finally ratted you out/hacked crime.net. Crabtree fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 06:51
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Wastrel_ posted:If we're talking original heists, Heat Street will basically be Goat Simulator Day 1, Panic Room is likely to still have that one annoying half-hidden cop in the corner that the helicopter pilot will keep demanding you clear, and the Green Bridge escape will be the run to the van on Breaking Ballot x10. Heat Street is going to be weird as hell without substantial alterations. A lot of that map is designed around being pinned down in long, protracted holdouts in awkward chokepoints purely through combat, which PD2 doesn't really do. There's gonna have to be some kind of hard obstacle to keep you stuck in the construction site or else it might as well not exist. The second chokepoint at least hinges on Matt not wanting to move when cops are around. Panic Room (and even my beloved No Mercy) is going to feel absolutely tiny unless something is done to expand the map (ala Rats 2) or the building itself. Green Bridge needs a serious overhaul to be anything but trash. Diamond Heist is going to be cool because it's already built wide like most PD2 maps and has good loud and stealth gameplay. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 07:34
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John Murdoch posted:Heat Street is going to be weird as hell without substantial alterations. A lot of that map is designed around being pinned down in long, protracted holdouts in awkward chokepoints purely through combat, which PD2 doesn't really do. There's gonna have to be some kind of hard obstacle to keep you stuck in the construction site or else it might as well not exist. The second chokepoint at least hinges on Matt not wanting to move when cops are around. Some thoughts on refitting these (NOT Death Vox): Heat Street: My guess is there are going to be randomly selected obstacles to moving forward during the first, most memorable part of the heist, in a manner akin to HoxBreak 1. While it would barely resemble the original, I agree that the combat of the new game makes the original approach pretty much impossible(though a turret or two placed at the far end of the street, or some respawning snipers, could make people have to slow down). I think the rest of the heist mostly works, since you still have to escort Matt, a mechanic that actually works pretty well in the new system. The ending defense objective will probably be replaced by an extended timer. Panic Room: I think the defense/clear objectives here are also going to be replaced by timers. It's...not gonna be great, but the old system was also really exploitable. Added special spawns and/or some helicopter snipers could make the roof a little more dynamic, as could blowing some holes in walls, but I agree that it's not gonna be too thrilling. Room 145, though. No Mercy: No mercy is small, but I think it will actually be decently challenging/fun as a result. The map is so cramped that enemies spawn pretty much on top of you almost everywhere. Green Bridge: I'm not sure it will be trash. Make it so you have to defend the skyhook setup from police and pull some more spawns back to the bridge collapse point and I think the map could become pretty intense. Diamond Heist: I'm not sure stealth will be as fun as I'd hope. With all the new stealth tools/mechanics, it will be really easy without some significant changes. Loud is going to be a problem- enemies have a lot of trouble pathing around the map, so it's pretty trivial. Most loud objectives past the hacks are also purely waiting-based, which doesn't help.
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Jul 28, 2016 16:24
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John Murdoch posted:Heat Street is going to be weird as hell without substantial alterations. A lot of that map is designed around being pinned down in long, protracted holdouts in awkward chokepoints purely through combat, which PD2 doesn't really do. There's gonna have to be some kind of hard obstacle to keep you stuck in the construction site or else it might as well not exist. The second chokepoint at least hinges on Matt not wanting to move when cops are around. My first thought for Heat Street was to spawn Winters immediately and put him somewhere far away. Either at the construction site or behind the car park you escort Matt through. And add a lot more police snipers.
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Jul 28, 2016 18:19
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UnknownMercenary posted:And add a lot more police snipers. Do you work for Lion Game Lion?
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Jul 28, 2016 20:49
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Explosionface posted:Do you work for Lion Game Lion? BAIN: "uh, guys, uh, I see a lot of laser sights coming over that rooftop, watch out?" *16 snipers spawn and insta-down everyone on the team* e: but for real, if they want to replicate the "hard, sustained push into police assaults" that Heat Street in PDTH had, they're going to either swarm you with specials or ... well, that's about it. That or actual obstacles you have to clear. Even in PDTH the best strategy was "sprint in a pack to the crashed van" and with PD2's superior dodge/mobility builds that'd be even-more-the-best unless they genuinely hard stop you at points during the run. neither is really a good option, but one is "complete the heist in 75 seconds" and one is "actually have to fight for the first 60% of the map" e: a better way to say it might be one is "complete the heist in 75 seconds while true to the original" and one is "Hoxbreak day 1: version 2: electric boogaloo" Psion fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 21:08
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Discendo Vox posted:Green Bridge:  Edit: Seriously, I just never saw anything appealing in Green Bridge. The first third was largely dull unless you intentionally ran headlong into the spawns at the far end of the map for no real reason, the tower is just a big boring timesink with limited tactical options, and the escape phase was only notable because they spawned a Payday 2 number of cops in Payday 1. Not to mention several PD2 maps have already cornered the "fighting on a bridge/street" and "protecting a fulton extraction" angles. Maybe there could be more going on with the bridge itself. Change it to a drawbridge, add vehicle gameplay somehow, or amp up the destruction factor, I dunno. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 21:57
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Beat cops everywhere.
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Jul 28, 2016 22:02
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Beat cops everywhere. Bring back OG Boiling Point. Make it a new difficulty if that's what it takes.
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Jul 29, 2016 02:46
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THE CHORSE posted:Bring back OG Boiling Point. Make it a new difficulty if that's what it takes. still wouldn't stop a frenzy/berserker build 
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Jul 29, 2016 03:28
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THE CHORSE posted:Bring back OG Boiling Point. Make it a new difficulty if that's what it takes. I'm not loving around when I say this is a path forward. Most of the frequently-used weapons wreck cops in one shot, or stun them, or otherwise have a very low TTK. Substantively, it doesn't really matter in a lot of cases that cops have varying health levels. Might as well make them paper-thin but do shitloads of damage.
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Jul 29, 2016 03:53
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For the first time I hit level 100 before I hit 200,000,000 in Offshore (I'm less than 1,000,000 short though ). I think I bought too many heists or something.THE CHORSE posted:Bring back OG Boiling Point. Make it a new difficulty if that's what it takes.
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Jul 29, 2016 05:41
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Bort Bortles posted:What is OG Boiling Point? Back when Boiling Point was first released, all of the non-special Russian forces were not coded correctly. They basically all had the health and damage of blue cops, and perfect accuracy over any distance. It was absolutely brutal, particularly in the first part. All the trees made it difficult to see the Russians, but they could sure see you. There was also not much cover there. A lot of people gave up on it in disgust, but we ultimately came up with a strategy to beat it. E: This was also prior to the skill revamp.
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Jul 29, 2016 05:56
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Back when Boiling Point was first released, all of the non-special Russian forces were not coded correctly. They basically all had the health and damage of blue cops, and perfect accuracy over any distance. It was absolutely brutal, particularly in the first part. All the trees made it difficult to see the Russians, but they could sure see you. There was also not much cover there. A lot of people gave up on it in disgust, but we ultimately came up with a strategy to beat it. It's worth mentioning that it was only like this for 1 day.
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Jul 29, 2016 09:00
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John Murdoch posted:Garbage in, garbage out. On higher difficulties, the first third of the map was usually the really difficult part- the bridge is difficult to defend because there are enough paths forward for enemies that a full group of four still struggles to cover all the angles. Adding more spawns to the back of the area would be enough toi significantly increase intensity. The tower defense, and the escape, can similarly be made more difficult if the fulton process can be interrupted. The escape doesn't actually add more enemies over the limit, it just places their positions such that, like Heat Street, the player is fighting forward into the spawnpoints. I think even slight changes to police pathing on the tower would do a lot to help that, especially with changes to make some spawns less campable. The underlying problem, though is still that changes to skills have made the game very, very easy, even before the Frenzy bug comes into play. LuciferMorningstar posted:I'm not loving around when I say this is a path forward. Most of the frequently-used weapons wreck cops in one shot, or stun them, or otherwise have a very low TTK. Substantively, it doesn't really matter in a lot of cases that cops have varying health levels. Might as well make them paper-thin but do shitloads of damage. No.
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Jul 29, 2016 15:57
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Hey Discendo have you ever seen a bug on one of the transport heists where the exit box does not appear? Last night a bunch of us ran the Intersection one (that also doubles as an escape map, I think?) and once we had all of the bags in the van no escape white box showed up on the ground anywhere. That is a terrible description, I know.
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Jul 29, 2016 16:13
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Maybr you'd like to present an actual argument?
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Jul 29, 2016 16:39
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LuciferMorningstar posted:I'm not loving around when I say this is a path forward. Most of the frequently-used weapons wreck cops in one shot, or stun them, or otherwise have a very low TTK. Substantively, it doesn't really matter in a lot of cases that cops have varying health levels. Might as well make them paper-thin but do shitloads of damage. Yeah, gently caress that. Bronco cops and the hostage rescue fuckers are artificial difficulty personified. Only thing that prevents them from being far more annoying than they already are is their limited spawn.
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Jul 29, 2016 16:39
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Back when Boiling Point was first released, all of the non-special Russian forces were not coded correctly. They basically all had the health and damage of blue cops, and perfect accuracy over any distance. It was absolutely brutal, particularly in the first part. All the trees made it difficult to see the Russians, but they could sure see you. There was also not much cover there. A lot of people gave up on it in disgust, but we ultimately came up with a strategy to beat it. good luck with this on Goat Heist. Either day really, but day 1 in particular.
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Jul 29, 2016 16:42
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Wastrel_ posted:Yeah, gently caress that. Bronco cops and the hostage rescue fuckers are artificial difficulty personified. Only thing that prevents them from being far more annoying than they already are is their limited spawn. All AI-based difficulty here is artificial. What you're really saying is "numbers too big and I don't like that, therefore bad."
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Jul 29, 2016 16:43
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Bort Bortles posted:Hey Discendo have you ever seen a bug on one of the transport heists where the exit box does not appear? Last night a bunch of us ran the Intersection one (that also doubles as an escape map, I think?) and once we had all of the bags in the van no escape white box showed up on the ground anywhere. That can happen. Two potential causes: 1. Massive desync from the host. This happens when folks are securing bags. 2. Mod bugs. Beardlib in particular, or anything using it, apparently screws up a huge number of things in every heist every time the game updates, because of how it indexes items.
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Jul 29, 2016 16:49
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Discendo Vox posted:That can happen. Two potential causes: Not even massive desync. It always happens to me when people throw in a bunch of bags at once and it's like the game can't process fast enough to update the objective or something.
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Jul 29, 2016 16:57
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LuciferMorningstar posted:All AI-based difficulty here is artificial. What you're really saying is "numbers too big and I don't like that, therefore bad." There's a difference between something like a dozer who does a lot of damage, takes a lot of damage to kill, but has a designated weakpoint and moves slowly versus a cop that is one-shot by literally any gun in the game, but has a hyper-accurate gun that does more damage in a single shot than any other cop. One is something that does that larger damage over time, the other is one that can (and will) instantly down you in sufficient numbers. Guess which one is NotFun™?
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Jul 29, 2016 16:57
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Reith posted:Not even massive desync. It always happens to me when people throw in a bunch of bags at once and it's like the game can't process fast enough to update the objective or something. That's the desync at work. While it papers over a lot of other problems, objective completion is, like some other functions, handled host-side. Multiple +1s to the bag quota going to the host at the same time (under bad lag) can be comingled, meaning the threshold is basically skipped. There needs to be an error handling check or something similar for it, but it's hard to implement for a few reasons, apparently. Wilko will fix it, though, I'm sure.
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Jul 29, 2016 17:12
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DelphiAegis posted:One is something that does that larger damage over time, the other is one that can (and will) instantly down you in sufficient numbers. Guess which one is NotFun™? Pretty sure any enemy type will instantly down you in sufficient numbers. Seems like a weak standard to me. You should probably petition Overkill to remove Snipers and Cloakers at the very least, though.
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Jul 29, 2016 17:21
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LuciferMorningstar posted:All AI-based difficulty here is artificial. What you're really saying is "numbers too big and I don't like that, therefore bad." That is almost exactly what I'm saying: 'numbers too big, makes game less fun, which I don't like, therefore bad.' It's not a fair challenge when a pack of men in balaclavas can shoot you down in a handful of shots when you're in the heaviest armour. Wielding MP5s that do poo poo damage in the player's hands, to boot.
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Jul 29, 2016 17:27
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Wastrel_ posted:That is almost exactly what I'm saying: 'numbers too big, makes game less fun, which I don't like, therefore bad.' I agree that at a certain level, a challenge becomes unfair and unfun. Problem is, that level isn't constant across players. So how do you effectively increase difficulty? Multiple difficulty levels addresses this to some extent. But would you, for example, be upset if Overkill introduced a new difficultly level that relied on mechanics you don't like?
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Jul 29, 2016 17:36
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Jul 29, 2016 17:54
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