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Doctor Malaver posted:And how would you define 'legitimate'? The Narva example you give would be legitimate, yes. The Estonian government in that case would be denying part of its population its legal rights by refusing them the ability to exercise their right to self-determination. I am unsure as to why you are bringing up North Cyprus given it's the result of a coup to unite the island to Greece and a military invasion by Turkey in response. In neither case did any of the people of Cyprus exercise their right to self-determination in a democratic manner. Unless you are referring to something more recent, in which case I'd like you to be more specific.
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Jul 29, 2016 12:22
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Doctor Malaver posted:What if citizens of Narva or some other town in the Baltic region with a large percentage of ethnic Russians voted for their region's independence? And then later voted to merge with Russia? Nitrousoxide posted:This is correct. The right to independence comes from disenfranchisement. Nitrousoxide posted:US states don't have the right to succeed. We fought a war over that. Perhaps you've heard of it?
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Jul 29, 2016 12:39
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's secede. If Trump wins then his spelling is more likely to be the correct one. 
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Jul 29, 2016 12:41
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Tesseraction posted:
I must hand it to Democratic party, they somehow managed to find a candidate less electable than Trump, that's not an easy accomplishment.
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Jul 29, 2016 12:46
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Puistokemisti posted:I must hand it to Democratic party, they somehow managed to find a candidate less electable than Trump, that's not an easy accomplishment. Unelectable by the standards of a freakish white nationalist is very different than unelectable by the standards of a human being with a soul.
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Jul 29, 2016 12:48
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Puistokemisti posted:I must hand it to Democratic party, they somehow managed to find a candidate less electable than Trump, that's not an easy accomplishment. Do you mean on policy or personality?
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Jul 29, 2016 12:50
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Nitrousoxide posted:US states don't have the right to succeed. We fought a war over that. Perhaps you've heard of it? That is not strictly true, they only have no right to secede unilaterally.
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Jul 29, 2016 13:00
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Torrannor posted:That is not strictly true, they only have no right to secede unilaterally. Not to mention the civil war itself was started due to Confederate aggression.
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Jul 29, 2016 13:01
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Nitrousoxide posted:This is correct. The right to independence comes from disenfranchisement. So could you kindly explain how every single independent state today is or has been disenfranchised in a way that gives them a right to independence?
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Jul 29, 2016 13:06
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Tesseraction posted:Not to mention the civil war itself was started due to Confederate aggression. Right, but the result of the war settled the dispute about the legality of both slavery and unilateral secession in the USA.
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Jul 29, 2016 13:06
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Tesseraction posted:If Trump wins then his spelling is more likely to be the correct one.
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Jul 29, 2016 13:08
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So, in the European context, a rich region would be totally justified to declare it's independence from the larger country it belongs to, and than can stay in the EU to continue to benefit from the infrastructure and resources of its former nation? That would be a terrible system.
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Jul 29, 2016 13:42
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Why?
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Jul 29, 2016 13:45
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Let's abolish all nations
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Jul 29, 2016 13:59
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Friendly Humour posted:Let's abolish all nations Agreed, and we should start with Germany.
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Jul 29, 2016 14:58
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GaussianCopula posted:So, in the European context, a rich region would be totally justified to declare it's independence from the larger country it belongs to, and than can stay in the EU to continue to benefit from the infrastructure and resources of its former nation? Which part of Germany are you from? Laying the groundwork for Bavarian independence?
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Jul 29, 2016 15:13
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YF-23 posted:The Narva example you give would be legitimate, yes. The Estonian government in that case would be denying part of its population its legal rights by refusing them the ability to exercise their right to self-determination. You should post this in the Eastern Europe thread. The reactions would be... interesting. YF-23 posted:I am unsure as to why you are bringing up North Cyprus given it's the result of a coup to unite the island to Greece and a military invasion by Turkey in response. In neither case did any of the people of Cyprus exercise their right to self-determination in a democratic manner. Unless you are referring to something more recent, in which case I'd like you to be more specific. The ethnic composition of Narva is a result of an undemocratic process (planned relocation of Russians, original citizens couldn't return) in USSR some 60 years ago. The ethnic composition of North Cyprus is a result of an undemocratic process (military invasion) some 30 years ago. Where do you see the big difference? Deltasquid posted:Self-determination only exists, legally speaking, in a colonial context. Because the decolonization process is why the UN formulated it that way in its charter. It was not meant to apply to developed nations. Thanks, this was interesting to read and it's something that I can get behind. I wonder how Catalunya's situation differs from Quebec's.
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Jul 29, 2016 15:32
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Tesseraction posted:Agreed, and we should start with Germany. Why Germany?
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Jul 29, 2016 15:41
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It's a sign Tesseraction all is worked up when he starts to post about grammar and pretends he didn't read or understand your post and responds accordingly. Not the first time  Tesseraction posted:Nice of you to admit to it, but I'm not a thread shitter and only reply to people like yourself to as to not tacitly endorse your poor faith arguments by ignoring them. Also saying "a single question" is pretty rich when you asked two, both of which were special pleading. I actually asked more than two and observed you didn't bother to answer a single one. But I guess this goes with your "pretending to be illiterate" thing and then responding as such, to annoy other people. Sorry, doesn't really bother me. You are a thread shitter, or at least used to be, but it seems for a day you have actually managed not to post about "white/brown people". That's pretty good. quote:Hmm, yes, clearly the unbiased eye of a totally-not-racist idiot waxing lyrical there. I do not know man, that thing is by and gone, but Swedish/Finnish papers reported a group of "Swedish men" were arrested for a rather heinous crime, but it actually was a group of guys from Somalia with Somali passports... Is reality somehow forbidden in your opinion or what the hell. quote:Right, that out of the way, your two questions. The questions that interested me, and which you somehow prentended to miss, were these: Ligur posted:But I have to ask, do you really believe that people who are worried about the European migration trends only post or are interested about these issues because... I guess you already answered another poster about these later, and concluded that worrying about immigration can only be racist (or am I wrong?), thus tagging you as an objective, clear headed individual with no ideological issues at all.
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Jul 29, 2016 15:41
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Doctor Malaver posted:You should post this in the Eastern Europe thread. The reactions would be... interesting. I don't care for the Eastern Europe thread; as much as Russia is the bad guy waving his dick all over its neighbours faces, they are too quick to demonise it as the source of all evil. I used to hang around in it a year or two back and stopped because of that. I don't know the explicit demographic history of Narva and the surrounding region, but for Northern Cyprus you are partially wrong. It wasn't as monolithic before the population exchange for sure, but there was a Turkish-Cypriot community before then. In either case it is far too late to change what happened 60 years ago. You cannot take back Stalinist relocations, you can't take back the Turkish invasion of northern Cyprus, and you certainly can't take back the 60 years of people being born, growing up, living and dying in those places. The big difference, since you asked for it, is that you presented me with a hypothetical perfectly democratic procedure in Narva that would take place today, with the invasion of Cyprus. I would like to think there's a difference between those.
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Jul 29, 2016 15:51
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YF-23 posted:In either case it is far too late to change what happened 60 years ago. You cannot take back Stalinist relocations
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Jul 29, 2016 15:59
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steinrokkan posted:Integratin 1% of total population worth of a heterogenous stream of foreigners isn't insignificant at all, are you being serious? Remember the time FOX published a graph going all the way to like 200C to illustrate that observed temperature changes were too insignificant to cause global warming? Someone like A Buttery Pastry or YF-23 could inform other posters what Sweden did to their immigration policy earlier this year.
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Jul 29, 2016 16:04
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A Buttery Pastry posted:No, but you can choose not to continue his work, which letting the Russian minorities in the Baltics secede and then join Russia would be. I don't think that depriving ethnic minorities of their rights in 2016 is a good or effective way of stopping "Stalin's work". Whatever Estonia and Latvia are doing right now seems to be good enough, if there's a Russian secession movement in those countries it has not been significant enough to matter.
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Jul 29, 2016 16:11
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Ligur posted:Someone like A Buttery Pastry or YF-23 could inform other posters what Sweden did to their immigration policy earlier this year. YF-23 posted:I don't think that depriving ethnic minorities of their rights in 2016 is a good or effective way of stopping "Stalin's work". *Minorities within those countries, but having a nation state right next door which vigorously defends and project their culture outside its own borders.
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Jul 29, 2016 17:03
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You mean close their borders because they ran out of room to house asylum seekers? Sweden remade immigration laws, or rather their policy regarding asylum seekers a while ago (normal migration not being a problem anywhere). They are now much more strict. They even introduced border checks before that last year, which were said to be hitler. Yeah Sweden also ran out of space, so every old motel, farmhouse and barn in the middle of nowhere is now a refugee center. Or am I wrong. Ligur fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jul 29, 2016 |
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Jul 29, 2016 17:26
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Ligur posted:Sweden remade immigration laws, or rather their policy regarding asylum seekers a while ago (normal migration not being a problem anywhere). They are now much more strict. Sweden is smaller than Zanzibar? I don't think that's true.
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Jul 29, 2016 17:30
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Brainiac Five posted:Sweden is smaller than Zanzibar? I don't think that's true.
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Jul 29, 2016 17:37
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Brainiac Five is occupies the same mental channel with former Swedish PM Fredrik Reinfeldt who said that when he flies over Sweden in his jet, he can see endless forests and fields which means Sweden is not out of space. You don't really need infra, roads, houses, schools, hospitals, teachers, doctors, whatever poo poo that doesn't matter. I wonder of Fredrik, Brainiac and the tesseractions of the world would be equally impressed and admire the logistic efficiency of dropping people into Greenland or perhaps the Sahara Desert. There is plenty of clear land there after all. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 29, 2016 17:38
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Ligur posted:Brainiac Five is occupies the same mental channel with former Swedish PM Fredrik Reinfeldt who said that when he flies over Sweden in his jet, he can see endless forests and fields which means Sweden is not out of space. You don't really need infra, roads, houses, schools, hospitals, teachers, doctors, whatever poo poo that doesn't matter. Sweden is so overloaded it has no room for more housing to be constructed? Sounds like Europe foisted the refugees off on a dystopian hellscape, but still a better one than the vast swamp to their east.
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Jul 29, 2016 17:41
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Brainiac Five posted:Sweden is so overloaded it has no room for more housing to be constructed? Sounds like Europe foisted the refugees off on a dystopian hellscape, but still a better one than the vast swamp to their east.
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Jul 29, 2016 17:47
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Also, housing anywhere where people actually want to live is loving expensive.
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Jul 29, 2016 17:51
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Brainiac Five posted:Sweden is so overloaded it has no room for more housing to be constructed? Sounds like Europe foisted the refugees off on a dystopian hellscape, but still a better one than the vast swamp to their east. We can build a series of housing projects, maybe in the modernist style. They should be huge, and kinda lovely. A bit outside of big cities, and people can take the subway there maybe?? You might call it... The million program?
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Jul 29, 2016 18:34
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Constructing housing takes time. If Sweden had just let these people keep coming while they were building new housing, they would have frozen to death. Racism is a far more likely explanation for the border closure IMO. Wild Horses posted:We can build a series of housing projects, maybe in the modernist style. They should be huge, and kinda lovely. A bit outside of big cities, and people can take the subway there maybe?? So you're saying construct immigrant ghettos? Appalling.
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Jul 29, 2016 18:39
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Constructing housing takes time. If Sweden had just let these people keep coming while they were building new housing, they would have frozen to death. It's been months since the refugee crisis began. More than enough time to have begun building housing. The "we're too full" argument seems nothing more than another embodiment of "Arabs/refugees are grasping parasites", to be frank. Anyways, good thing Sweden is immune from natural disasters given its lack of spare housing capacity.
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Jul 29, 2016 18:58
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Arglebargle III posted:
we already did, we won't do it again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Programme
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Jul 29, 2016 19:00
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Brainiac Five posted:It's been months since the refugee crisis began. More than enough time to have begun building housing. The housing market, well known quickly reacting to changes (aside from just increasing rents/prices). The cities haven't had enough affordable housing for like a decade.
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Jul 29, 2016 19:07
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Andrast posted:The housing market, well known quickly reacting to changes (aside from just increasing rents/prices). Well, if you leave it to the free market, no wonder people are dying.
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Jul 29, 2016 19:10
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Brainiac Five posted:Sweden is so overloaded it has no room for more housing to be constructed? Sounds like Europe foisted the refugees off on a dystopian hellscape, but still a better one than the vast swamp to their east. Housing costs money and time (especially in Sweden), it also needs accompanying infrastructure such as roads, schools and easy access to public welfare. For immigrants with mostly lacklustre education levels (for compatibility with the current labour market) one also needs to hire massive amounts of extra specialized personnel such as teachers and migration administration officers (multi year educations here). In addition there needs to be employment opportunities for the arrivals and their dispersal/housing needs to be carefully managed to not further enhance social segregation and the associated problems. These problems are solvable, but takes considerable investment in both economy and time, especially as the electorate does not like sudden changes to the status quo. People who claim that Sweden can easily accept large amounts of refugees because it is relatively rich is loving dumb, it can more easily accept refugees due to being rich, but it is still limited by logistics and limits in public will. There is a very real reason why the local populist party has popped from 0% to 20%, heavily supported by the working class, the class that will need to compete for the same services, housing types and low entry skill jobs in an economy and job market adapted to the large middle class. I assume the previous policy/lack of policy towards immigration will haunt the country politically in various forms for a long time.
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Jul 29, 2016 19:54
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Brainiac Five posted:It's been months since the refugee crisis began. More than enough time to have begun building housing. Brainiac Five posted:The "we're too full" argument seems nothing more than another embodiment of "Arabs/refugees are grasping parasites", to be frank. Anyways, good thing Sweden is immune from natural disasters given its lack of spare housing capacity. Arglebargle III posted:Racism is a far more likely explanation for the border closure IMO.
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Jul 29, 2016 19:57
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Dawncloack posted:Oooh look, someone who had not been missed in this thread. Your butthurt posts when people aren't following your lunatic opinion on that separatist issue are just textbook examples for cheerleading and calling for lynch mobs on people with different opinions. Oooooooh look, somebody not completely on board with the Holy Separation From Spain, probably paid by the Spanish government, hey thread, let's gang up! Address the sovereign citizen comparison instead, I'm very interested. Also I'd be really interested to know why Europe desperately needs more small countries.
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