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CoolCab posted:loving how OvineYeast posted:Although actually, having re-read it, I'm not really entirely clear what the grievance is here. She'd been working on a policy about SEN and then John McDonnell independently announced an Autism Manifesto? Which need not be strictly concerned with SEN as such in any case. e: 367 is both a happy number and a Colombian number 
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Jul 30, 2016 12:30
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Probably the same rumours suggesting Bercow has said he'll disqualify Corbyn's labour from short money and the rumours he's promised it to the PLP if they split. Chances are they're buying a pinky swear from the tories that "no, don't worry you've totally got it all, just keep stabbing Corbyn"?
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Jul 30, 2016 12:32
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Junkozeyne posted:I don't think you can 'show' something in a fictional book. That is the same level of stupid as Judge Scalia defending torture with the fictional tv show '24'. Yes, fiction has never been used to criticise real-world ideology. 
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Jul 30, 2016 12:37
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OvineYeast posted:They probably would, if they were a majority of the PLP. Keeping the Labour name unlikely to be an option though. A majority of the party reforming has an argument sure, but is short money a sum of MPs individual grants or an opposition grant? can an unelected party be the legal opposition, in that sense? do parties absolutely totally not mean a drat on the general election forms? it seems like it'd be forcing serious pressure on exactly what our unconstitutionally defined government actually is, and I can't see a judge making what would be a controversial piece of case law for the sake of a petty political slapfight I mean point out what bits I'm wrong on or have been clarified, I'm aware parties don't really have much existence on the local level but we're talking creating a totally unelected political party and declaring it the opposition.
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Jul 30, 2016 12:39
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Junkozeyne posted:I don't think you can 'show' something in a fictional book. That is the same level of stupid as Judge Scalia defending torture with the fictional tv show '24'. most of our political vocabulary is from satire and dystopian fiction. I'm glad he's dead too but not everyone here is as bad at humanity and language as Scalia. Pointing out that someone's politics look a lot like a book written sixty years ago in an attempt to define the worst possible future is different to saying TORTURE COOL, TV SAY SO, SCALIA KILL
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Jul 30, 2016 12:43
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Can you imagine if the courts gave them the name, Bercow grants them short money and they run on a hard anti-Brexit platform? Protest votes would not begin to cover the outrage from both the left and right wing population. It would de-legitimise the entire parliamentary system as it currently stands.
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Jul 30, 2016 12:45
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Ocrassus posted:Just been reading more about this micheala school thing and it is absolutely horrendous. Their uniform policy is so strict that they'll force a kid to shave an eyebrow off if they deign to have any lines in it. If that's an "elite" school in the UK, it explains a lot of what I've found so puzzling about the UK ruling class. The utter incompetence most of all. Yes, I know that the Tories are malicious and saying they're incompetent can detract from that. I'm not saying they're incompetent rather than malicious. They're both. Since I've started paying attention to UK politics I've found it incredible how utterly terrible at politics almost every single UK politician is, and definitely every prominent one. Even the media's attacks on Corbyn, pervasive though they are, are extremely softball compared to what I've seen in European or US media.
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Jul 30, 2016 12:45
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Spangly A posted:can an unelected party be the legal opposition, in that sense? Yep, opposition is just the grouping that forms the largest bloc of non-government MPs. No need to be elected under a particular party banner. e: According to Wikipedia, whoever the Speaker thinks is the leader of the opposition is. OvineYeast fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 12:46
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OvineYeast posted:Yep, opposition is just the grouping that forms the largest bloc of non-government MPs. No need to be elected under a particular party banner. Well if people figure out parliament is as legitimate as a wet fart and people start shooting right-wing MPs I'll be sitting here saying "I told you, I told you about constitutional republicanism bro" e; right well if it's a farmer, bercow, the entrance lobby, and a shotgun I win Brexit Cluedo Spangly A fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 12:48
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Spangly A posted:Well if people figure out parliament is as legitimate as a wet fart and people start shooting right-wing MPs I'll be sitting here saying "I told you, I told you about constitutional republicanism bro" Can't imagine anyone being energetic enough against right-wing MPs, unless all immigration stops and they don't find another target to shift blame onto, or the economy totally collapses and they happen to be the ones in power, which is likely but they'll still figure out a way to shift blame.
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Jul 30, 2016 12:59
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Deliberate misrepresentation takes more effort and time than rote relaying of facts. Not if it is being spoon fed to you with plenty of free booze to help the story go down. Basically: thespaceinvader posted:the status quo in which they get to cozy up to MPs in a subsidised bar and get their stories leaked by 'sources close to the PM' rather than having to put in any work. It's because they're wildly corrupt and wildly incestuously related to the political system rather than independent reporters and monitors of it. Jeremy Corbyn is not playing that status quo and it is a huge problem if he wants to get any positive coverage in the media. He would have to schmooze people he hates, serve them pre-hashed stories which they can drop into their paper with minimal work and let juicy tidbitss drop from thee top table to make them think that they are important and have a unique inside line to the People Who Matter. The whole lecture series stuff and speeches in local places and detailed discussion of policy points is all well and good but those have to be accompanied by a press pack which spoon feeds the 1 or 2 main points to a set of hacks which they have previously lunched with a few times. Even better if through these lunches the hacks got wind of your initiates beforehand. Schmoozing with parts of the establishment isn't a Corbyn thing though and many people in this thread would be pissed off with him if it was.
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Jul 30, 2016 13:01
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OvineYeast posted:Yep, opposition is just the grouping that forms the largest bloc of non-government MPs. No need to be elected under a particular party banner. I hope the Speaker goes for the comedy option in the event of a split and hands the leader of the opposition title to the SNP. Edit: looking at wikipedia Corbyn's Labour would still receive short money in the event that the splitters claimed the title of Opposition however he would lose the valuable funds given specifically to the official opposition. Vengeance of Pandas fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 13:05
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Man, if they and the berk go through with that it would really show the whole thing descending into farce. If Brexit made us into a bit of a laughingstock globally what would that do?OvineYeast posted:e: According to Wikipedia, whoever the Speaker thinks is the leader of the opposition is. Is it really just the speaker's say so which designates the official opposition? Man, our loving (lack of) constitutional system. The again the actual fact is probably even more of a mess namely that it isn't actually defined and that so far going with who the speaker said it was never was a problem because none of them were so fucksticks stupid to stick their oar into a party dispute. That said I would be overjoyed to hear about the one instance two centuries ago where the speaker designated a small party for whatever reason and that then just passed as a good job.
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Jul 30, 2016 13:14
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winegums posted:The PLP is overwhelmingly filled with people cut from the same cloth as the Tories (middle class, private education, oxbridge). That's not as overwhelming as you might think, at least the privately educated and oxbridge parts. 17% of Labour MPs were privately educated, for example. A narrow majority of the Tories were state educated even. From the Sutton Trust http://www.suttontrust.com/newsarchive/one-third-of-mps-in-new-house-of-commons-was-privately-educated/ quote:Posted on: May 10, 2015
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Jul 30, 2016 13:24
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TheHoodedClaw posted:That's not as overwhelming as you might think, at least the privately educated and oxbridge parts. 17% of Labour MPs were privately educated, for example. A narrow majority of the Tories were state educated even. From the Sutton Trust Remarkably, the current cabinet has the fewest privately educated ministers in 70 years.
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Jul 30, 2016 13:34
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I think there's still a difference between "brown-nosing the media despite their bias" and "getting your message out to people who aren't currently your own actively engaged audience" that isn't being discussed. Corbyn isn't doing either right now, and when you try to talk about the latter then everyone responds with points about the former. No-one denies the upwards mountain he has to climb, but the country has 70m people in it, not just 500,000 labour members. Clear, controlled, repeated messaging without much room for nuance is necessary and that's what he's not good at. It's necessary not because Rupert Murdoch's slavering horde of coked up London journalists absolutely love sound bites, but because most people don't spend all their time following political theatre and if they have to do a lot of research on their own time to figure out what you're saying then they're not going to bother. Anything else is getting into the "low informed voters" poo poo the dark side of the Sanders movement kept throwing around. I saw Corbyn and Smith's candidate statements on paper the other day, both double sided A4. I remember noting that Corbyn's did not have any policies on the first page. It was 300 words about being a movement, and how we can make things better together, and how he's proud to have a mandate from the people to lead. Okay fine, but it's so vague as to be meaningless when the biggest criticism against him is how he's failing to effectively oppose Tory policies. He should have a slogan. It should be "Austerity doesn't work" and it should be popping up on billboards and being said by him in every interview. Not talking about it over several sentences, it should be those three words. "Kinder, gentler politics" has bit him on the arse hard because of a handful of rabid politico shut-ins who spend all day messaging Labour MPs and calling them scum. Hoops fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 13:51
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Oh my god, you should all spend some time reading the website for that Michaela Just wow I actually don't know how some of this is legal. Any kid in there is going to come out seriously hosed up. e: link http://mcsbrent.co.uk/
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Jul 30, 2016 13:58
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ThomasPaine posted:Oh my god, you should all spend some time reading the website for that Michaela who's Michaela, anyway?
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Jul 30, 2016 14:02
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OvineYeast posted:I mean to be honest this sounds like the kind of thing that happens in every organisation I've ever been in. It is not difficult to see how this is poo poo leadership and poo poo organisation. Who would you talk to if you were considering adopting these new proposals? Probably the person who's been working on autism and education for the past 9 months. Except you wouldn't, if you'd either forgotten that they were, or had not spoken to them to find out how their work was progressing or what they were even doing. It's like watching Chris Roberts trying to lead a political party.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:08
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OvineYeast posted:who's Michaela, anyway? Apparently it's named in memory of a deceased colleague of the founder. I was hoping it was named after Gove but the internet proved me wrong 
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Jul 30, 2016 14:10
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Even if true that's pretty normal for most people doing minimum wage work only we don't get to throw a hissy fit about it. If she can't work around that she's obviously never had a real job.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:10
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OwlFancier posted:Even if true that's pretty normal for most people doing minimum wage work only we don't get to throw a hissy fit about it. If she can't work around that she's obviously never had a real job.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:14
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El Grillo posted:She and her team had spent months preparing for the Special Educational Needs and Disabilities review. A large part of such a review would necessarily be dealing with strategies for working with kids who have autism. The no.2 in the party then announced his support on Twitter for the appointment of a Shadow Neurodiversity Minister and an autism manifesto. If they are saying they're going to adopt an autism manifesto and a new minister for this area, that is obviously going to have an impact on the work she has spent months doing (and had officially launched, three days prior). More pointedly, the fact that there was no consideration of her being contacted or of any discussion of this with her, shows a complete lack of awareness and coordination on the part of the leadership (which is also pointed to by every other account from within the shadow cabinet). Worse, she was simply unable to get a response out of him or the leadership, all the while the parties/organisations she'd been consulting with, and the media, are getting in touch to find out what's going on. She eventually gets a note telling her to expect an apology which never arrives. Still doesn't seem like anything to kick off about tbqh. And given that all this happened in May and June I might suggest that there are other reasons that things weren't quite going through as they would otherwise.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:21
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Sharon Hodgson is presenting whatever happened in a way that makes her grievance look legitimate as possible whilst making the other side's actions look as poor as possible, to push forward the narrative she wants. It's fair to acknowledge that, everyone everywhere does this.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:22
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Hoops posted:So it's fine? If I can be expected, and in some cases manage, to work around managerial incompetence, I expect a cabinet minister to do the same. Like the logical solution there is to go find Jeremy and badger him about it until he sorts it out. Not sit with your thumb up your arse writing letters about something that's obviously important and then writing to the bloody papers when you don't get an answer.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:37
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Someone is that shocked and upset that something good that they put time and effort into is pissed all over by management with neither sense or reason? Then that someone hasn't spent much time in, or paid any real attention at any organisation they have been a part of, because even the sleekest and most efficient looking management teams are held together with nothing but good hopes and duct tape behind a pleasant looking facade. Or, alternatively, certain aspects have been looked at from unique angles to find the correct narrative on something that would otherwise be a non-story but just so happens to be bfjc
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Jul 30, 2016 14:37
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Being as it's convention (although not written anywhere, of course) for the Secretary of State for Scotland and their shadow to be Scottish, the Lord Chancellor/Justice Minister to have a law degree, etc. will it be customary for the Minister for Neurodiversity to be autistic?
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Jul 30, 2016 14:39
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OwlFancier posted:If I can be expected, and in some cases manage, to work around managerial incompetence, I expect a cabinet minister to do the same.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:40
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See here's the thing - when you take part in a long-planned coup to oust the party leader, it makes your justifications open to suspicion. Why take her side of the story as gospel? I mean, she claimed she went into work without planning to resign, and yet she was the 5th person (I think) to do it. Here's her resignation letter Her reasoning is the exact same PR line as everyone else - "no confidence from the party, didn't campaign for the referendum". No complaints about her role, in fact she sounds pretty positive about the work she did. If this grievance she's citing now is legitimate, you'd think she'd have at least mentioned it? The coup was a failure - Corbyn didn't step down. The leadership challenges were a failure, he didn't step down. It's looking like he's going to win the leadership contest. It's not really surprising that the people who quit are trying to paint another picture about why Corbyn is bad and why their resignations were actually principled and justified. Is what she's saying actually true? Possibly, who knows. But the source isn't exactly unbiased and trustworthy
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Jul 30, 2016 14:46
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Hoops posted:You've now said twice that the party leadership team are incompetent in order to make a point about one of the shadow ministers, are you sure that's the line you want to go down? I said that if we grant it for the sake of argument then the complaint is still stupid. If your response to working with someone who has, at worst, apparently forgotten something you were doing, is to quit your job and write to the papers about them, that says more about your inability to work as a team than theirs.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:47
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OwlFancier posted:If I can be expected, and in some cases manage, to work around managerial incompetence, I expect a cabinet minister to do the same. It's fascinating that a man who is so keen on organising labour is so unremittingly awful at organising Labour.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:50
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It's fascinating that members of the organized labour party are so unwilling to make an effort to organize behind the labour that supports them. And by fascinating I mean loving stupid.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:52
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OwlFancier posted:I said that if we grant it for the sake of argument then the complaint is still stupid.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:53
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Hoops posted:If we grant for the sake of argument that I am a violent sadistic wife-beater, my wife really is dumb for marrying me. Maybe not the best analogy, this
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Jul 30, 2016 14:55
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Uh
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Jul 30, 2016 14:56
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Angepain posted:Maybe not the best analogy, this
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Jul 30, 2016 14:59
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Hoops posted:If we grant it for the sake of argument though, then the problem is much bigger than her being a bit of a baby. It's just an odd tactic to use to discredit her. If we grant for the sake of argument that I am a violent sadistic wife-beater, my wife really is dumb for marrying me. You are Owen Smith AICMFP Hoops posted:I think it's fine, but I'll rephrase it as "these people who want Jeremy Corbyn booted out from the leadership are so incompetent that they can't even handle Jeremy Corbyn's lovely leadership". If your manager at work is terrible, the best solution is they leave. Most people unfortunately don't have a mechanism for getting rid of a bad leader, but MPs do. If your manager at work has forgotten something but is obviously not actively malicious and is an integral part of your job continuing to exist, the best solution is to take the initiative and remind them of the important thing you're doing until they understand.
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Jul 30, 2016 15:00
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OwlFancier posted:You are Owen Smith AICMFP Hoops fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 15:01
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Hoops posted:If we grant for the sake of argument that I am a violent sadistic wife-beater, my wife really is dumb for marrying me. This is art.
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Jul 30, 2016 15:04
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Hoops posted:Ding ding ding - you didn't like my personal criticism of the holes in your argument so I must be attacking your political views. You are the UKMT and I claim my five pounds. I was making a joke about your use of domestic violence metaphors and catching flak for them.
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Jul 30, 2016 15:05
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