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I need to put together a set of Perez art. It's always interesting to look up artists of gaming past, because these days any artist talented enough to be recognized in gaming is probably talented enough to do something else. DiTerlizzi does children's books, Perez went on to work for Marvel, Kevin Long went on to work for Raven on Quake IV... ... and then there's Cris Dornaus, who went on to do New Age coloring books. 
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Aug 2, 2016 21:21
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I'll post Pathfinder art
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Aug 2, 2016 21:26
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I need to put together a set of Perez art. It's always interesting to look up artists of gaming past, because these days any artist talented enough to be recognized in gaming is probably talented enough to do something else. DiTerlizzi does children's books, Perez went on to work for Marvel, Kevin Long went on to work for Raven on Quake IV... Zeleznik early on got a huge payday as one of the designers for the classic San Jose Sharks logo, a staple of the 90s (Kings and Sharks most 90s hockey teams) so he can afford to do RPG art, although I have seen him do comics and video game art too.
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Aug 2, 2016 21:33
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Huh! I remember the Sharks, they were the colors for a local gang where I went to high school. 
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Aug 2, 2016 21:38
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As a tangent to all this stuff, is there some reason Google+ seems like such a hotspot/flashpoint for the RPG industry? None of my other hobbies seem to engage with it much, and my general impression of it from elsewhere was just "that annoying crap that google keeps trying to get us to do when we use gmail or youtube". I know roll20 can use google hangouts (I think); is that the driver, or is there something else that makes it particularly useful for RPGs?
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Aug 2, 2016 22:20
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One advantage of it is that it doesn't have that weird "It's public but it's only public if you already have a facebook account" thing. Something is either public, or shared with your circles, there isn't any overlap. That and the ability to +tag people and draw them into drama even if they've got you blocked makes it really great for serial harrassers.
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Aug 2, 2016 22:22
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Google+ makes it really easy to build a completely insular community with no unwanted outside input.
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Aug 2, 2016 22:23
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That too, unfortunately.
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Aug 2, 2016 22:27
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Alien Rope Burn posted:... and then there's Cris Dornaus, who went on to do New Age coloring books. My friend who does my art has considered getting into that poo poo because it's a license to print money, apparently.
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Aug 2, 2016 22:56
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I know this is going back to the first post, but one confusing thing is that most people I know into story games also like OSR games. Hell, I'm a big story gamer guy, but I'm in an AD&D game and like DCC. I don't get this false war between OSR games and story gamers that Mark claimed existed when its really just one guy being an absolute piece of poo poo and people who are aware giving him poo poo for being a terrible person.
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Aug 2, 2016 23:12
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Covok posted:I know this is going back to the first post, but one confusing thing is that most people I know into story games also like OSR games. Hell, I'm a big story gamer guy, but I'm in an AD&D game and like DCC. I don't get this false war between OSR games and story gamers that Mark claimed existed when its really just one guy being an absolute piece of poo poo and people who are aware giving him poo poo for being a terrible person. You could perhaps, charitably trace it back to RPG Pundit's long-standing war with any game after 1977 (that isn't also Amber). Dude's been peddling the OST vs Storygame narrative for a decade, ever since Blue Rose was released (if not before then). Pundowski latched on hardcore to "D&D causes brain damage" line that came out of Ron Edwards back in fuckin' 2006 and hasn't let it go. He might not have started it but he's been the loudest voice when it comes to that nonsense.
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Aug 2, 2016 23:37
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Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Aug 25, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 23:44
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Slimnoid posted:You could perhaps, charitably trace it back to RPG Pundit's long-standing war with any game after 1977 (that isn't also Amber). Dude's been peddling the OST vs Storygame narrative for a decade, ever since Blue Rose was released (if not before then). Pundowski latched on hardcore to "D&D causes brain damage" line that came out of Ron Edwards back in fuckin' 2006 and hasn't let it go. Edwards wasn't talking about D&D, he was specifically talking about the Storyteller system and other 90s games that purported to focus on the narrative of a game while actually being dense combat simulators that mostly took the previously established rules and fluffed them up with new terminology. Pundit hates the White Wolf/Onxy Path games, too, afaik but he also hated Forgeist theory even more. You can extrapolate it to talk about how similar D&D conceits have warped our own expectations of what RPGs should be, but (on a personal level) I'd still say let's not use language that's derived from Ron Edwards comparing bad RPGs to child molestation. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 23:51
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Slimnoid posted:You could perhaps, charitably trace it back to RPG Pundit's long-standing war with any game after 1977 (that isn't also Amber). Dude's been peddling the OST vs Storygame narrative for a decade, ever since Blue Rose was released (if not before then). Pundowski latched on hardcore to "D&D causes brain damage" line that came out of Ron Edwards back in fuckin' 2006 and hasn't let it go. Edwards really said that the way WoD games (and forgotten stuff, like certain Champions supplements) pushed themselves as storytelling games but were traditionally crunchy did harm to the ability of role players to grasp how narrative RPGs work. D&D didn't even come up, if I recall correctly. Of course he couched it in bellicose and ableist terms, and wasn't perfectly clear about it, which is where the disconnect comes from. I think D&D's worst crimes in that department are the ubiquitous online alignment charts and "What class is pop culture character????" debates but even then it's grating but harmless nerd cargo cult poo poo. Or maybe "D&D but classless!" design sense that some still think is fresh. Edwards covered that in his heartbreaker article too. efb Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 23:58
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2nd edition AD&D had a major tonal issue where the text told you to play interesting characters with dreams and plans and motivations, but the rules made you less survivable than you were in 1st edition AD&D.
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Aug 3, 2016 00:01
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Having just finished a big art direction project, I feel like an art thread would be really cool.
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Aug 3, 2016 00:16
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Is the Hot Modrons thread dead?
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Aug 3, 2016 00:25
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Nuns with Guns posted:Edwards wasn't talking about D&D, he was specifically talking about the Storyteller system and other 90s games that purported to focus on the narrative of a game while actually being dense combat simulators that mostly took the previously established rules and fluffed them up with new terminology. Pundit hates the White Wolf/Onxy Path games, too, afaik but he also hated Forgeist theory even more. You can extrapolate it to talk about how similar D&D conceits have warped our own expectations of what RPGs should be, but (on a personal level) I'd still say let's not use language that's derived from Ron Edwards comparing bad RPGs to child molestation. Lightning Lord posted:Edwards really said that the way WoD games (and forgotten stuff, like certain Champions supplements) pushed themselves as storytelling games but were traditionally crunchy did harm to the ability of role players to grasp how narrative RPGs work. D&D didn't even come up, if I recall correctly. Of course he couched it in bellicose and ableist terms, and wasn't perfectly clear about it, which is where the disconnect comes from. Yeah, I misremembered that one. My bad. Admittedly I don't really listen to anything Ron says because I don't really give a flying gently caress about both his theories and his games, so easy mistake on my part.
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Aug 3, 2016 03:50
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remusclaw posted:Is the Hot Modrons thread dead? You'll get a pretty quick response if you have a request, a lot of people follow it but have nothing new to show.
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Aug 3, 2016 03:54
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Slimnoid posted:Yeah, I misremembered that one. My bad. Admittedly I don't really listen to anything Ron says because I don't really give a flying gently caress about both his theories and his games, so easy mistake on my part. It's really only Ron Edwards and RPGPundit that are heavily invested into keeping this whole feud alive. Probably because it's the only thing that gives them a public identity anymore.
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Aug 3, 2016 04:11
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Covok posted:I know this is going back to the first post, but one confusing thing is that most people I know into story games also like OSR games. Hell, I'm a big story gamer guy, but I'm in an AD&D game and like DCC. I don't get this false war between OSR games and story gamers that Mark claimed existed when its really just one guy being an absolute piece of poo poo and people who are aware giving him poo poo for being a terrible person. Honestly, there really isn't one, which is what made Mark's post so pathetic. He threw his friend under the bus and crowed and danced around to defend Zak in order to be the Smart Rational Adult in a conflict that doesn't exist.
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Aug 3, 2016 05:34
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's really only Ron Edwards and RPGPundit that are heavily invested into keeping this whole feud alive. Probably because it's the only thing that gives them a public identity anymore.
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Aug 3, 2016 05:40
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Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Aug 25, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 05:44
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I had fun once with the Rules Cyclopedia it was awful
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Aug 3, 2016 06:09
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One of my favorite game is made by a dude who wanted to try and prove the OSR isn't all lovely retroclones http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/john-higgins/retro-phaze-ebook/ebook/product-21032590.html and it's free
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Aug 3, 2016 07:35
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I mean I'm pretty sure a bunch of people here who think that Zak S is an rear end in a top hat and that Lamentations of the Flame Princess is overhyped trash could easily come up with a list of retroclones and OSR-related stuff that's actually decent, the idea that there are hardline ideological lines between storygamers and OSR-ers is a pretty flimsy premise to use as the foundation of an impassioned call for solidarity, even if you discount bits about said essay being used as a vehicle to pillory a supposed friend in the court of public opinion and go to bat for a serial harasser in the process.
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Aug 3, 2016 07:56
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I mostly just feel like I already did my time with AD&D when I was young. It was always "that old game I played before I discovered better games" and though I still find it interesting I don't feel a real draw for it - or, by extension, the OSR. To me it just feels like driving a Model T or programming on a C64 or listening to vinyl. You may be developing really, really cool games for the C64, don't get me wrong, but it'll be a hurdle for me to dial back my brain to give them an honest go. To me old versions of D&D are basically "old technology" and that's where the divide for me is. I find it very interesting in terms of history and design but don't feel any need to play them again. That's not to say I don't think it's kind of cool that vinyl records exist, but I'm not the kind of person that's going to be paying money for them. Granted, that's not quite fair, and some of them have improvements of the modern age of roleplaying, but they're still inevitably built on legacy mechanics I don't have a world of interest in. But I don't really hate the movement, I just find it kind of disinteresting. I'd easily play those games as well as any other, but I'm a lot less likely to seek them out.
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Aug 3, 2016 08:33
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Lightning Lord posted:Also, Larry MacDougall did art for it. That guy rules. I really should start an RPG art thread. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3605440 I thought we already had one?
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Aug 3, 2016 08:45
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That's a perfectly reasonable stance to take. I never really put much stock in "the OSR movement" because it predicates that those games are special beyond their chronological and cultural significance. The way I see it, trying to do "OD&D Superheroes" or "OD&D Martian Pulp Fantasy" or "Basic D&D Gothic Horror" is really not so much different than using d20 to make d20 Modern, d20 Mutants and Masterminds and d20 Call of Cthulhu, or using GUMSHOE to make Trail of Cthulhu, Night's Black Agents and Lorefinder. And that covers about half the OSR. The other half of the OSR, which is making "restatements" of the old D&D versions to begin with, has been obsoleted by WOTC finally putting all the old editions back as official PDFs again. The most I will grant is that the official PDFs were only very recently (as in this year) completed, and that there's maybe some utility to Labyrinth Lord if you really want it in print.
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Aug 3, 2016 08:52
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I mostly just feel like I already did my time with AD&D when I was young. It was always "that old game I played before I discovered better games" and though I still find it interesting I don't feel a real draw for it - or, by extension, the OSR. To me it just feels like driving a Model T or programming on a C64 or listening to vinyl. You may be developing really, really cool games for the C64, don't get me wrong, but it'll be a hurdle for me to dial back my brain to give them an honest go. That's all fine, I might not agree 100% but it's just elfgames. Anyone who reads this and mentally amends "and therefore anyone who is running In Search of the Unknown in BX at GenCon on Friday probably boils kittens in their kitchen" is an idiot. For myself I've always been into retro gaming, etc. I was using boot disks to play Ultima 7 on my dad's Pentium II, reading 70s comics from the flea market, stuff like that. So it aligns with my interests anyway,and I'm the type of dude who likes sifting around for old cool stuff. With RPGs, there's an added element of being able to play stuff now that I couldn't back in the day. Yeah, The One Ring is certainly the finest Tolkien game to date. But I'd like to give MERP a spin regardless. Especially in light of 2e being the game, everyone would play, with brief forays into the latest edition of Shadowrun, Vampire or rarely Call of Cthulhu when I was a kid. Hell, those brief games were like pulling teeth to,get going. To use your metaphor, most of the time it's not like owning a Model T as your daily car used to go to work and back, but taking one for a test drive. gradenko_2000 posted:That's a perfectly reasonable stance to take. I never really put much stock in "the OSR movement" because it predicates that those games are special beyond their chronological and cultural significance. I like some of the games and products that have come out of it, but I don't give two dead and buried fucks about the OSR as a movement or the buttheads who try to use it as a cult of personality or a weirdo personal army. In fact I'm actively hostile towards them. But I can dip into some forum or whatever that uses it as label, to talk about overlooked Judges Guild adventures or if all those early and forgotten weird competitors to D&D ike Swordbearer or Man, Myth and Magic had any worthwhile ideas. To me that's more interesting than yet another self published retread of Keep on the Borderlands. But hey, I can probably do that here too. It's not really a defense either, just what practical use I've managed to glean out of it. D&D is special, but so are plenty of other games. The most infuriating aspect of old school fandom is the atmosphere of fallen empire the more strident types want to cast over the hobby, trying to push the idea that things are grim because WotC. No son, it's more robust than ever, at least on the player side. You can pick whatever game you want and people will be there to play. Some of the 1:1 clones are better organized and clearer. OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, etc. Plus they enable home brewers to do stuff, so I wouldn't call them obsolete. Just not as essential as they used to be 5-8 years ago. Zereth posted:https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3605440 That's more of a request thread, I mean about art specifically made for RPGs and the artists who create it. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 11:20
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Lightning Lord posted:For myself I've always been into retro gaming, etc. I was using boot disks to play Ultima 7 on my dad's Pentium II, reading 70s comics from the flea market, stuff like that. So it aligns with my interests anyway,and I'm the type of dude who likes sifting around for old cool stuff. There's a difference between this attitude (correctly identifying older RPGs as "old technology," like ARB put it, and wanting to play them because it's interesting to see stuff that formative to the hobby) and the attitude exhibited by some of the more vocal OSR people that new things suck and only old things are good, because those old things are the things that they had before the arbitrary cutoff point where they decided minorities had too many rights and the world was bad. You get some of the exact same attitude with retro video games. Unfortunately, the OSR as a "whole" doesn't take the time to excise that vocal minority for a variety of reasons (humans are bad at self-criticism, geek social fallacies abound) and the RPG industry on average is extra toxic, and so "the OSR movement" ends up being visibly defined by those people. 
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Aug 3, 2016 11:39
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Apropos of nothing, but Rolemaster, MERP, and now even Phoenix Command are on my bucket list of RPGs that I want to run someday, because that level of detail sounds fascinating.
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Aug 3, 2016 12:59
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This very nicely sums up my overall feelings as well; I lived through the era that most OSR games are emulating, so while I can appreciate them on one level or another, I run into a mental block of "but I did this already years ago". My main problem with the OSR idea as an idea is actually a problem I ran into with Dungeon World a while back; people working in that designspace focusing more on things like reimplementing core rules or making 500 new classes instead of emulating the Weird poo poo we had back then. Where's the new Temple of the Frog God? Or that old Basic book full of goody gnomish inventions? Where's the totally out-there campaign settings? I know they exist, but it seems like they tend to be in the minority. That's not to say there aren't old-school games or products I seriously dig. I really like Into the Odd, Strange Stars (admittedly with the Fate rules), and I've been reading Shadows of the Demon Lord and I'm really liking that. And while I looked at Black Hack and my reaction was basically "wait, that's it?", I realized the other day that it's basically the OSR/retroclone version of Fate Accelerated: a game you can use as a framework for other games.
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Aug 3, 2016 16:26
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Yeah I wouldn't mind OSR as much if it was poo poo like emulating the sheer madness of Castle Greyhawk or Mystara instead of 'boring dungeon crawl #ad nauseum'
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Aug 3, 2016 16:29
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Nuns with Guns posted:Edwards wasn't talking about D&D, he was specifically talking about the Storyteller system and other 90s games that purported to focus on the narrative of a game while actually being dense combat simulators that mostly took the previously established rules and fluffed them up with new terminology. Lightning Lord posted:Edwards really said that the way WoD games (and forgotten stuff, like certain Champions supplements) pushed themselves as storytelling games but were traditionally crunchy did harm to the ability of role players to grasp how narrative RPGs work. D&D didn't even come up, if I recall correctly. Of course he couched it in bellicose and ableist terms, and wasn't perfectly clear about it, which is where the disconnect comes from. Of course, he had to present that idea with analogies to handicapped people and prosthetics, because he's Ron Edwards. It's totally lovely, notwithstanding that there are a bunch of people who see that forum thread reply out of context, interpret it as "Ron Edwards said my favourite causes brain damage!" and throw temper tantrums. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 16:45
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Well, the language we use has changed a lot in 10 years and is only changing faster. I wouldn't focus too hard on the "brain damage" line.
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Aug 3, 2016 16:51
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Evil Mastermind posted:And while I looked at Black Hack and my reaction was basically "wait, that's it?", I realized the other day that it's basically the OSR/retroclone version of Fate Accelerated: a game you can use as a framework for other games. I was already soured on the OSR as a community, but The Black Hack, which I even backed, was basically the last straw for me on OSR as a design space. For months and months the G+ OSR group was nothing but "The [noun/adjective] Hack" of people stapling their favorite houserules and settings onto a game that was already just comprised of "roll d20 under your attribute". Maybe I'm being the grognard here, but I couldn't believe how worked up people were getting over something that looked, to me at least, so very droll.
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Aug 3, 2016 16:53
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The OSR has been obviated by digital editions, reprints, and eBay. It seems really weird to me that cults and cliques are trying to recapture the "feel" of something that's currently readily available. Like, I get Oldhammer - the aesthetic of 80's Games Workshop is tied to physical miniatures and smaller-run books that are way out of production. But compare that to D&D, which only briefly dried up. I've mentioned this before, and I understand that it's a desire to play games that are similar to old games, but how is that a thing in 2016 when I can buy reprinted AD&D books from Barnes & Noble? The whole thing comes across like hipster tribalism, with the emphasis more on delineating "us" from "them" than on making rad adventure games.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:12
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Kevin Crawford's stated position is basically "Well, I'm going to do something weird and/or fun but I want people to be able to drop in D&D monsters and run old adventures as painlessly as possible." which I guess is a design goal, and way more thought put into it than most people doing OSR stuff. (...Though I am not sure how, for example, a group of Godbound would handle the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, since 'semi-divine murder-gods' are a weird set of protagonists for 'pirates doing a literal Scooby Doo gambit')
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Aug 3, 2016 17:18
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gradenko_2000 posted:I was already soured on the OSR as a community, but The Black Hack, which I even backed, was basically the last straw for me on OSR as a design space. For months and months the G+ OSR group was nothing but "The [noun/adjective] Hack" of people stapling their favorite houserules and settings onto a game that was already just comprised of "roll d20 under your attribute". Maybe I'm being the grognard here, but I couldn't believe how worked up people were getting over something that looked, to me at least, so very droll. In fairness, this exact thing happened to Apocalypse World, too.
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