Jenny Angel posted:
Eh. If someone's gonna make an appeal to mass consumption then a point has to be made about the nature of the consumers.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:24
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mr. stefan posted:They also aren't actively going to movies, either. Theater attendance has been dropping across the board for years, after all. Streaming, baby.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:27
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Streaming, baby. Which is an interesting sidebar, since aside from rewatching ones favorite movies, one of the most commonly stated uses for streaming services is binge watching television, which has at the same time been paralleled with a marked increase in the production value and quality of visual composition of serial television shows. Maybe the common person does know what good characterization and visuals look like, and simply aren't going to the movies anymore to get it!
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Aug 3, 2016 18:31
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Like a lot of those movies, Dick Tracy and The Phantom among them, they have really great set and costume design which were shown the way by Burton's Batman. It does go to show, however, just how much influence a director has on the look and feel of a movie. Case in point: Bo Welch did The Lost Boys and Beetlejuice back to back, and both of them have utterly amazing production design. Then he goes and does Ghostbusters II, which has some of the most boring sets imaginable (unsurprising, since, let's be honest, no one would ever confuse Ivan Reitman as someone with a particularly imaginative vision). And then he reunites with Burton for Batman Returns and comes up with this Gothic fantasy hellscape. Timby fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 18:32
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People like the characters because the Marvel films are packed with moments that go towards creating characterization. Like look at this scene, it's under a minute long, it's amusing, humanizing, and every character's approach to the hammer is reflective of their personality. I feel like they really do go through their all scripts and go 'can we do a little thing here that furthers the characterization?' because the Marvel films in general are just chock full of deft little moments that establish character. That stuff comes out of a good script and good casting, and yeah a script with good characterization generally goes a lot further than cinematography for making a film good, especially a blockbuster.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:32
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McDonald's doesn't get good reviews from critics.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:34
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mr. stefan posted:Eh. If someone's gonna make an appeal to mass consumption then a point has to be made about the nature of the consumers.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:41
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lazorexplosion posted:People like the characters because the Marvel films are packed with moments that go towards creating characterization. Like look at this scene, it's under a minute long, it's amusing, humanizing, and every character's approach to the hammer is reflective of their personality. I feel like they really do go through their all scripts and go 'can we do a little thing here that furthers the characterization?' because the Marvel films in general are just chock full of deft little moments that establish character. Characters and characterization are just a device for telling stories.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:41
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Jenny Angel posted:Except even this is just chock full of assumptions that you're glossing over. Why do people like to watch their characters? Why do they enjoy the overall movies? What does it mean for them to be well-made? "Coherent" is probably the most substantial point here, the idea being that Marvel's movies are easier to follow and their competitors don't have payoffs good enough to warrant the extra effort in following their less coherent stuff No that's fair enough, I wasn't really trying to offer an assessment or a grand breakdown of it. But if you were to ask people why they like the Marvel movies so much I imagine you'd recieve a similar answer. I mean, why do people like to watch these characters? Why do people find any character likeable? Alright take Tony Stark; he's charming, he's handsome, he's funny and in the first movie he has a clear arc from criminal to superhero. He's played by an actor that people enjoy watching. Or Scott Lang. Again similar arc from criminal to someone who is doing good. He has a daughter he wants to connect with and he wants to help a family get back together. Cast a well-liked actor as the lead and you have something that people find relatable. I mean, this is essentially an argument we can make about anything that's popular, such as why do people like Indiana Jones? Or countless other characters. I mean Marvel are clearly doing something right that other people aren't. I don't think people are brainwashed into liking them. Coherence is a think a pretty big factor, though I feel now that - however many films in - its to their detriment. Marvel are good at setting up stakes early on and establishing what the goals/threats are that your heroes will have to overcome and trim the fat. It's just very simple age-old storytelling. Again though I think it's now become incredibly reductive and it means less and less as the movies go on. DC on the other hand feel ponderous by comparison and though I liked BvS you could feel people's attention wandering (Touch wood I never get a vocal audience at all, but BvS is the first movie I'd seen in a long time where I could hear people muttering around the halfway mark). mr. stefan posted:The vast majority of people who clamor to watch marvel movies are literal children. Most adults don't give a poo poo about them and only buy the ticket to see it with their kids. Kids enjoy them because they have no frame of reference as to what a well shot, well characterized movie looks or sounds like. The showings I've been to have been chock full of Adults. No kids. Kids obviously make a good portion of the audience because of course they do, but plenty of adults without kids are going to these movies too. According to the MPAA's 2013 report, IRON MAN 3 and MAN OF STEEL attracted an "overwhelmingly male audience". The biggest audience share for that year (as it is most years) is the 18-39 range. DrVenkman fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 18:43
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Jenny Angel posted:Except even this is just chock full of assumptions that you're glossing over. Why do people like to watch their characters? Why do they enjoy the overall movies? What does it mean for them to be well-made? "Coherent" is probably the most substantial point here, the idea being that Marvel's movies are easier to follow and their competitors don't have payoffs good enough to warrant the extra effort in following their less coherent stuff Well I think the assumption that the reasons are the same film to film is a similarly big one- i.e. saying "they're good because they're good" isn't a totally empty observation if its shorthand for "they are generally thought to be a good series of films because most entries in the series have happened to be good, but not necessarily for the same reasons." There are definitely many similarities because the films are all entertainments linked by genre, they generally draw on characters from a shared universe with a semi-consistent voice, they try to maintain visual consistency between films, etc. But do these add up to a repeatable formula? When I look at Winter Soldier and Guardians I see good films with some similarities, but also a lot of differences and there is no commonality immediately apparent on screen that makes them both good. I think the "Marvel formula" is probably more related to a consistent studio support structure centered on these films that so far has done a good job choosing personnel, supporting those people appropriately, and exercising appropriate editorial control. What "appropriate" is and "good personnel" are, are things that are hard to define because every one of these films has a zillion moving parts and the production is so opaque that unique processes that produce consistently good outcomes are not going to be visible to us (or even other studios, thus leading to the repeated rake->dick connection). LGD fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 18:46
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lazorexplosion posted:People like the characters because the Marvel films are packed with moments that go towards creating characterization. Like look at this scene, it's under a minute long, it's amusing, humanizing, and every character's approach to the hammer is reflective of their personality. I feel like they really do go through their all scripts and go 'can we do a little thing here that furthers the characterization?' because the Marvel films in general are just chock full of deft little moments that establish character. Sitcom stuff, in other words.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:47
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I understand that the traits 'obtuse inability to understand moments of likable characterization' and 'likes BvS' often go hand in hand.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:50
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'Superhumans being amusingly humanized' is very strong legs for this one-trick pony, but no MCU film has come close to the characters cruising to Gnarls Barkley in Kick-rear end.
SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 18:53
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Sitcom stuff, in other words. If your argument here is "They're mediocre, just like sitcoms" it's a poor argument. There's vastly different types of sitcoms, with vastly different qualities. Arrested Development, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and Archer are all sitcoms but one would not lump them in with the perception that all sitcoms are mediocre.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:56
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lazorexplosion posted:I understand that the traits 'obtuse inability to understand moments of likable characterization' and 'likes BvS' often go hand in hand. So we're just back to "everyone who likes BvS is an idiot" cool
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Aug 3, 2016 18:57
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Guy A. Person posted:So we're just back to "everyone who likes BvS is an idiot" cool To be fair, "everyone who likes [insert thing here] is an idiot" seems to be a recurring theme.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:58
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When D. Snyder said "people don't like to see their heroes deconstructed", it's probably more accurate to say that these people don't like the heroes at all. They like to see assholes with magic guns having their meagre attempts at ethical behaviour constantly undercut.
SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 19:01
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WampaLord posted:If your argument here is "They're mediocre, just like sitcoms" it's a poor argument. There's vastly different types of sitcoms, with vastly different qualities. Arrested Development, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and Archer are all sitcoms but one would not lump them in with the perception that all sitcoms are mediocre. My argument is that this "baseline of quality" is just a Two Broke Girls script. Nothing to get excited about, easy to understand. I'm agreeing.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:03
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WampaLord posted:If your argument here is "They're mediocre, just like sitcoms" it's a poor argument. There's vastly different types of sitcoms, with vastly different qualities. Arrested Development, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and Archer are all sitcoms but one would not lump them in with the perception that all sitcoms are mediocre. Not all sitcoms are mediocre but all sitcoms, including the mediocre ones, meet the standard that was offered for why Age of Ultron is so good.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:13
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What's buried under the market place terminology is a simple appeal to popularity, and reduction of art into commodity. Yes, because this whole digression was a discussion about commoditized art, which these films absolutely are and are intended to be. The original post I responded to made an explicit complaint about how expectations set by Marvel were dragging down the box office of other films that didn't stick to the same formula for heavens sake. You're free to come to your own conclusions about the films purely as art and no appeal to popularity should dissuade you. Those conclusions also have basically no bearing on a discussion regarding what a general audience finds to be "quality" though, unless you're suggesting I should privilege your own idiosyncratic interpretations- which I will not do because this is a realm where a thing's popularity and people's revealed preferences are actually extremely relevant. LGD fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 19:13
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:My argument is that this "baseline of quality" is just a Two Broke Girls script. Nothing to get excited about, easy to understand. I'm agreeing. Savage.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:22
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teagone posted:I know there's one goon who openly admits to this. I forgot their name though. If I see their avatar I can point them out, lol. That would be SMG
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Aug 3, 2016 19:23
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I'll tell you why Marvel movies succeed: because people are being alienated, they don't have real friends anymore, they are depressed, they are adrift in a post-capitalist world that's rapidly disintegrating, and want escapist fare that shows likeable people that they want to be friends with solving horrible problems with zero consequences or disruptions. They get to idealize themselves into a pretend world where they are in a cool club of funny people who like each other and can fix everything quickly and easily while having fun doing it. There. There's something you can loving discuss that isn't broad meaningless crap or disgusting corpo-synergy speak. Tear it apart.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:24
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Well, this thread got fun. (Like a Marvel movie)
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Aug 3, 2016 19:26
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DrVenkman posted:Well, this thread got fun. no on point quips from this crowd tho we need a RDJ type in here stat
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Aug 3, 2016 19:27
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I'll tell you why Marvel movies succeed: because people are being alienated, they don't have real friends anymore, they are depressed, they are adrift in a post-capitalist world that's rapidly disintegrating, and want escapist fare that shows likeable people that they want to be friends with solving horrible problems with zero consequences or disruptions. They get to idealize themselves into a pretend world where they are in a cool club of funny people who like each other and can fix everything quickly and easily while having fun doing it. 2/10, you didn't mention McDonald's. Guy A. Person posted:no on point quips from this crowd tho The tension was merely bearable, too.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:32
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I'll tell you why Marvel movies succeed: because people are being alienated, they don't have real friends anymore, they are depressed, they are adrift in a post-capitalist world that's rapidly disintegrating, and want escapist fare that shows likeable people that they want to be friends with solving horrible problems with zero consequences or disruptions. Bullshit, Tony is a tech CEO and thus all about disruption
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Aug 3, 2016 19:34
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The Marvel movies do a good job of distilling the basic formula of the blockbuster movies from Jaws down to today on a surface level. Especially the latter era as the balance shifted more towards humor and action than drama.They also balance this with visuals that they ensure don't challenge a person while watching (People feeling "tired" when watching movies often comes from directorial choices that subconsciously make them think or feel - using soft, brighter colors with no hard oppressive shadows, flat angles, etc. have the opposite effect on relaxing people. See how Jurassic Park starts off extremely flat, with soft lighting until the T-Rex attack, where the movement/angles/etc. all jump up ridiculously, to make the viewer feel more jumpy/uneasy. Now compare how TLW NEVER gives you the softer feels of JP). Combine with non invasive scores that are not very percussion heavy and focus more on just flowing, and you have a lot of set formula decisions meaning you'll never turn off the average person who EXPECTS this from every big blockbuster movie they see. It's very comparable to a McDonalds or something that gives you an expected product for an expected price. But there are varying degrees of fast food quality, and some quality in some fast food has dropped over the years, even though people still buy it. That analogy is actually apt in many of the arguments here. The other arguable part is whether movies that purposely buck that formula are "bad" for doing so.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:34
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Jenny Angel posted:Bullshit, Tony is a tech CEO and thus all about disruption RDJ's Iron Man is the perfect hero for today's Twitter world (and this forum) because he maintains an outward-facing sardonic ironic sense of detachment from everything - making jokes and calling everyone else idiots - while revealing (only to the audience) that deep down he is a sensitive lonely insecure nerdshoe full of CareFeels that wants to make the world a better place. It's why he's the de-facto audience surrogate in all these films. The fact that he constantly and demonstrably makes the world worse with his "disruption" is totally glossed over and totally ignored by everyone - the movie, the fans, the critics, etc. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 19:35
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Tony Stark should be taken as a cautionary tale of how many people would drink Soylent if Rob Rhinehart was played by Robert Downey, Jr.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:38
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LGD posted:Yes, because this whole digression was a discussion about commoditized art, which these films absolutely are and are intended to be. The original post I responded to made an explicit complaint about how expectations set by Marvel were dragging down the box office of other films that didn't stick to the same formula for heavens sake. You're free to come to your own conclusions about the films purely as art and no appeal to popularity should dissuade you. Those conclusions also have basically no bearing on a discussion regarding what a general audience finds to be "quality" though, unless you're suggesting I should privilege your own idiosyncratic interpretations- which I will not do because this is a realm where a thing's popularity and people's revealed preferences are actually extremely relevant. You can't keep your story straight at all. This corporate babble is basically meaningless, and just a way to avoid discussing the movies. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 19:39
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:RDJ's Iron Man is the perfect hero for today's Twitter world (and this forum) because he maintains an outward-facing sardonic ironic sense of detachment from everything - making jokes and calling everyone else idiots - while revealing (only to the audience) that deep down he is a sensitive lonely insecure nerdshoe full of CareFeels that wants to make the world a better place. To be fair, it's not that glossed over. It's noted that he means well.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:39
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I'll tell you why Marvel movies succeed: because people are being alienated, they don't have real friends anymore, they are depressed, they are adrift in a post-capitalist world that's rapidly disintegrating, and want escapist fare that shows likeable people that they want to be friends with solving horrible problems with zero consequences or disruptions. They get to idealize themselves into a pretend world where they are in a cool club of funny people who like each other and can fix everything quickly and easily while having fun doing it. Counterpoint, I might be the happiest, most content person on this forum, and I like it when Captain America throws his shield at bad guys, cause it makes a cool thunk sound.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:41
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:RDJ's Iron Man is the perfect hero for today's Twitter world (and this forum) because he maintains an outward-facing sardonic ironic sense of detachment from everything - making jokes and calling everyone else idiots - while revealing (only to the audience) that deep down he is a sensitive lonely insecure nerdshoe full of CareFeels that wants to make the world a better place. I don't think it's necessarily 'glossed over', it's intrinsic to what makes the character resonate with the fans. There's a real sense of guilt stemming from a growing awareness of how participating in consumer capitalism makes us complicit in exploitation and oppression. The reaction is, over course, not "what if I'm the bad guy" or "how do I stop being the bad guy", but "no, I'm still the good guy because my intentions are pure".
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Aug 3, 2016 19:43
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:To be fair, it's not that glossed over. It's noted that he means well. True, and I'm just trying to generate some real discussion. So then let's discuss something that leads us to: why are people willing to accept that Tony Stark means well when he fucks up and people die, but when you try the same defense with Superman from Man of Steel it is rejected out of hand? Tony Stark's brooding is "concern", Superman's brooding is "whining". (sidenote: This is why arguing these Marvel things is so frustrating: something that works in isolation in the context of a Marvel movie dies on the vine when ported to another film. So you have people arguing that "it's easy, just do it like Marvel" but when you actually start pointing out those "Marvel elements" in other movies they concede they don't work there!)
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Aug 3, 2016 19:43
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Slugworth posted:Counterpoint, I might be the happiest, most content person on this forum, and I like it when Captain America throws his shield at bad guys, cause it makes a cool thunk sound. What if he were to throw his shield...at you! Never thought about that, did ya.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:45
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:What if he were to throw his shield...at you! Never thought about that, did ya. My reflexes are too fast. I would catch it.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:47
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:True, and I'm just trying to generate some real discussion. So then let's discuss something that leads us to: why are people willing to accept that Tony Stark means well when he fucks up and people die, but when you try the same defense with Superman from Man of Steel it is rejected out of hand? Tony Stark is a man everyone wants to be and expresses that by doing what they expect to do if they were him. He's the smartest man in the world and the richest and he flaunts it constantly and buys super expensive cars and sleeps with everyone and shows up everyone in the room. He fucks up, but that's okay because you know he'll fix it because he's you and you would fix in in your projection of yourself. Superman is someone everyone wants to be (the most powerful person in the world who can do anything)...and...DOESN'T do what most people would do with it! He holds his powers back, and hides who he is behind a quiet, unassuming dude, and is hesitant about jumping into things. It frustrates people, so when he messes up, they're like 'of course it's his fault, he's an idiot, that's not what I would have done - this proves that it's bad writing and they don't get the character!" They would rather see something like Hancock where a guy with Superman's powers just gets wasted and bangs women and...oh wait, the movie is about how racism actually held back that character and he's actually giving up on love altruistically to basically live in solitude, never mind, that sucks too. They love Batgod but hate any time Batman fucks up completely or decides to retire. Etc. Follow discussions on any superpowered character, and you start to see that kind of projection pattern.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:49
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:What if he were to throw his shield...at you! Never thought about that, did ya.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:50
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:True, and I'm just trying to generate some real discussion. So then let's discuss something that leads us to: why are people willing to accept that Tony Stark means well when he fucks up and people die, but when you try the same defense with Superman from Man of Steel it is rejected out of hand? Tony Stark's brooding is "concern", Superman's brooding is "whining". What offends people about Clark's central conflict in Man of Steel is that he's concerned not how, but if he should use his power. It comes back to that guilt over consumer capitalism; people want to feel better by spending their money on the right things. If I buy more Ghostbusters tickets, I am supporting women; I need to buy the kind of bottled water that contributes to charity, etc. Even the idea of boycotting things elevates the dollar as moral currency, and makes the individual 'important' because they can 'speak with their wallet' (you're not, and your individual spending habits don't loving matter). Clark questions if it's even possible to make things better by participating, and this makes people very, very uncomfortable. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 19:50
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