USPOL August: Quoth The Donald, "Arzy more."

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USPOL August: Quoth The Donald, "Arzy more."

Civilized Fishbot: Apr 3, 2011

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

So will last weeks DNC Convention go down as the most impactful of all time? Because it may have actually killed Trumps campaign and possibly the Republican Party as a whole.

no, 1968 is still way more significant. trump's campaign was already dead and damning for the GOP without yet another scandal to throw onto the pile

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:55

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# ? May 26, 2024 15:55

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

ImpAtom posted:

Those jobs are never coming back. We have to figure out a solution instead of clinging to that hope.

Didn't I just say that no one is talking about bringing those jobs back but rather that many Americans would prefer not to lose MORE jobs thanks to a new NAFTA, if, in fact, the TPP or some other future agreement fits the same profile?

Is "those jobs are never coming back" something that pro-TPP and pro-NAFTA posters are forced to say, immediately, when they're triggered by anti-trade-agreement posting?

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:55

axeil: Feb 14, 2006

Evil Fluffy posted:

That site has Virginia as "barely GOP" so whomever made it is out of their drat mind. I'm pretty sure Clinton has lead Trump by several points in every poll for that state and currently sits around +5 in VA.

Clinton's looking at a minimum of 300ish EVs even if she loses Florida and Ohio. She could easily end up with a 350+ EV victory by taking those states and a few of the other tossups.

It cites a July 27th RABA Research poll that was Trump +4.

Electoral-vote is not a sophisticated model, nor does it claim to be. It's literally just "who leads in the most recent poll of the state?" It doesn't take into account pollster bias, trends, quality, etc. It's incredibly simple by design.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:57

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

Mozi posted:

If the US doesn't enforce some sort of rules in Asian trade then China will sign 1-on-1 deals with neighboring countries without any sort of worker protections whatsoever. Whether or not the specific rules we are creating are perfect is less important than creating an Asian trading bloc as opposed to there being no rules at all. I think the bird's eye view on this is the only really important one - pharmaceutical rules, generics, patents etc etc are all gross and bad and so forth but that's just not as important compared to the benefits to the region overall.

Not saying I'm personally against the TPP.

Just said you can't expect Americans to fall in love with it when the last trade agreement led to about 700,000 jobs lost and hastened the death of the rust belt. I don't expect many posters to care about that, though.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:57

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

1968 was an own goal or the closest thing we've had since Dwyer of a literal political suicide on TV.

2016 is closer to a televised execution.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:58

WampaLord: Jan 14, 2010

Noam Chomsky posted:

Not saying I'm personally against the TPP.

Just said you can't expect Americans to fall in love with it when the last trade agreement led to about 700,000 jobs lost and hastened the death of the rust belt. I don't expect many posters to care about that, though.

Please show how NAFTA took all those jobs away. Because it seems like corporations were gonna outsource whatever they could regardless.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:00

Munkeymon: Aug 14, 2003; Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.

Arrgytehpirate posted:

I looked up the tank incident and holy gently caress

http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/whistlestop/2015/12/how_george_h_w_bush_vanquished_michael_dukakis.html is a good podcast about the whole thing

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:00

seiferguy: Jun 9, 2005; FLAWED
INTUITION; Toilet Rascal

Free trade / globalization is Pandora's box. Once it's opened, it's not going back in. To think that closing off free trade will suddenly bring back manufacturing jobs is foolish.

For the record, there are some jobs that are coming back to US soil as people realize that a lot of 3rd world countries make shoddy products, and the language barrier / cultural customs can make it incredibly difficult. Granted, it will never come back to what the US is, so the US needs to adapt their economy into a manufacturing one to a manufacturing / service hybrid marketplace.

edit: it's absolutely true the TPP fight is a proxy battle similar to keystone. The policies aren't going to drastically change the American worker. It's just that gut instinct to yell out against free trade.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:00

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

Noam Chomsky posted:

Didn't I just say that no one is talking about bringing those jobs back but rather that many Americans would prefer not to lose MORE jobs thanks to a new NAFTA, if, in fact, the TPP or some other future agreement fits the same profile?

Is "those jobs are never coming back" something that pro-TPP and pro-NAFTA posters are forced to say, immediately, when they're triggered by anti-trade-agreement posting?

Except the TPP doesn't, and a lot of jobs "lost to NAFTA" would have been lost anyway; but you don't listen either so getting up on a high horse of "but you don't listen to me :qq:

" is way easier.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:01

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

Noam Chomsky posted:

Didn't I just say that no one is talking about bringing those jobs back but rather that many Americans would prefer not to lose MORE jobs thanks to a new NAFTA, if, in fact, the TPP or some other future agreement fits the same profile?

Is "those jobs are never coming back" something that pro-TPP and pro-NAFTA posters are forced to say, immediately, when they're triggered by anti-trade-agreement posting?

Yeah, no. There's a number of people who think that if stuff like NAFTA was repealed then the jobs will return.

Those jobs were going away anyways. The Republicans would be singing praises of NAFTA if it was passed by George Bush in his second term instead of Clinton.

It's just another convenient tool to get people riled up against what they have been told is bad.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:01

Doctor Butts: May 21, 2002

Republicans sung the praises of NAFTA a metric loving shitload at the time, and after. After all, they were the people who pushed hard for it and Clinton agreeing with it was a bipartisan victory for them as well.

Up until it became politically convenient to blame Clinton for it.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:02

bowser: Apr 7, 2007

zoux posted:

Rules for the CC roast of Donald Trump

Hillary's surrogates need to start occasionally 'slipping up' and referring to Trump as a millionaire. I'm almost certain he'd throw a tantrum over it, and the only way he can prove them wrong is to release his tax returns :allears:

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:04

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

Doctor Butts posted:

Republicans sung the praises of NAFTA a metric loving shitload at the time, and after. After all, they were the people who pushed hard for it and Clinton agreeing with it was a bipartisan victory for them as well.

Up until it became politically convenient to blame Clinton for it.

I don't know what you're talking about. They've always been opposed to the Clinton's attempt to Vince Foster the American Patriot Working Class.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:04

evil_bunnY: Apr 2, 2003

zoux posted:

My feeling on the TPP is, like Keystone, this is more of a proxy debate about the direction of american trade policy (energy in KXL's case) rather than any practical objection to what's in the measure.

TPP has some pretty unacceptable software clauses for americans (no man in the middle, no weak encryption, etc), that's something to keep in mind.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:04

FilthyImp: Sep 30, 2002; Anime Deviant

Violator posted:

I know this is literal talking points they've been using for eight years, but where the heck does that view of Obama come from?

He wrote two books talking about himself!
He ordered Arugula for his burger! At Whole Foods!
He asked for Dijon Mustard once!
There's a picture of him looking up with his eyes closed that makes him look self-centered!

Basically a self-secure Black man with power scares the poo poo out of some people so they have to reassure themselves that he isn't really all that powerful he's just full of himself.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:04

ImpAtom: May 24, 2007

Noam Chomsky posted:

Not saying I'm personally against the TPP.

Just said you can't expect Americans to fall in love with it when the last trade agreement led to about 700,000 jobs lost and hastened the death of the rust belt. I don't expect many posters to care about that, though.

Do you think that rejecting TPP will save those jobs?

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:05

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

WampaLord posted:

Please show how NAFTA took all those jobs away. Because it seems like corporations were gonna outsource whatever they could regardless.

I already posted a few sources that call out the 700,000 jobs lost from just the trade deficit with Mexico.

If corporations can do whatever they want then why do they lobby for these trade agreements?

I can't quite figure out why so many posters are ultra pro-NAFTA. You guys must own a ton of stock.

Also, again, no one has talked about getting those jobs back, but rather keeping the jobs that are left.

Goons: leftists until we start talking about trade policy. What a loving joke.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:05

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

evil_bunnY posted:

TPP has some pretty unacceptable software clauses for americans (no man in the middle, no weak encryption, etc), that's something to keep in mind.

None of that poo poo is within 500 miles of why people are mad about TPP

Noam Chomsky posted:

I already posted a few sources that call out the 700,000 jobs lost from just the trade deficit with Mexico.

If corporations can do whatever they want then why do they lobby for these trade agreements?

I can't quite figure out why so many posters are ultra pro-NAFTA. You guys must own a ton of stock.

Also, again, no one has talked about getting those jobs back, but rather keeping the jobs that are left.

Goons: leftists until we start talking about trade policy. What a loving joke.

This passive aggressive posting thing you do: not a good look.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:05

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

evil_bunnY posted:

TPP has some pretty unacceptable software clauses for americans (no man in the middle, no weak encryption, etc), that's something to keep in mind.

These claims were largely debunked.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:05

ImpAtom: May 24, 2007

Noam Chomsky posted:

I already posted a few sources that call out the 700,000 jobs lost from just the trade deficit with Mexico.

If corporations can do whatever they want then why do they lobby for these trade agreements?

I can't quite figure out why so many posters are ultra pro-NAFTA. You guys must own a ton of stock.

Also, again, no one has talked about getting those jobs back, but rather keeping the jobs that are left.

Goons: leftists until we start talking about trade policy. What a loving joke.

I'm not pro trade agreements. I just find the argument of "it's to save jobs" has no actual backing. We're going to continue to lose jobs because there's no benefit to keeping them in the US. We need to adapt.

I dislike people using these things as a shield to avoid having to deal with the real problem.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:06

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

Noam Chomsky posted:

I already posted a few sources that call out the 700,000 jobs lost from just the trade deficit with Mexico.

If corporations can do whatever they want then why do they lobby for these trade agreements?

I can't quite figure out why so many posters are ultra pro-NAFTA. You guys must own a ton of stock.

Also, again, no one has talked about getting those jobs back, but rather keeping the jobs that are left.

Goons: leftists until we start talking about trade policy. What a loving joke.

at all of this

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:06

sean10mm: Jun 29, 2005; It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World

Noam Chomsky posted:

I already posted a few sources that call out the 700,000 jobs lost from just the trade deficit with Mexico.

If corporations can do whatever they want then why do they lobby for these trade agreements?

I can't quite figure out why so many posters are ultra pro-NAFTA. You guys must own a ton of stock.

Also, again, no one has talked about getting those jobs back, but rather keeping the jobs that are left.

Goons: leftists until we start talking about trade policy. What a loving joke.

Nice meltdown.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:06

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

ImpAtom posted:

Do you think that rejecting TPP will save those jobs?

Can you read?

I've said a couple times I, personally, don't care about the TPP either way. I just said you can't expect Americans to fall in love with it.

The TPP and other trade agreements, as well as automation, will march onward until almost all Americans are out of work anyway.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:07

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

ImpAtom posted:

I'm not pro trade agreements. I just find the argument of "it's to save jobs" has no actual backing. We're going to continue to lose jobs because there's no benefit to keeping them in the US. We need to adapt.

I dislike people using these things as a shield to avoid having to deal with the real problem.

Adapt to the bread lines.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:07

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

Noam Chomsky posted:

Can you read?

I've said a couple times I, personally, don't care about the TPP either way. I just said you can't expect Americans to fall in love with it.

The TPP and other trade agreements, as well as automation, will march onward until almost all Americans are out of work anyway.

I think you're confusing "unemployed" with "underemployed."

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:07

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Violator posted:

I've seen a bunch of worried conservative posts saying basically "Obama is the most narcissistic, vain, and self centered President in history! But Trump might be worse!"

I know this is literal talking points they've been using for eight years, but where the heck does that view of Obama come from? I can't think of any particularly holier-than-thou comments that Obama has ever made outside of some trumped up quotes taken out of context (i.e., "Michelle said she hates white people!!!"). I really can't fathom how someone could describe Obama as either a narcissist or particularly self centered.

turns out a ton of people aren't good at critical thought, understanding, and synthesis, so they tend to throw insulting words they've heard at people and see if they stick rather than actually thinking about their criticism. which is why the best insults are targeted at an individual's flaws, like instead of calling trump self-centered people prefer to call him stuff like cheeto jesus to make fun of his bad tan and junk food nature

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:08

ex post facho: Oct 25, 2007

Again, can anyone explain the divide between Obama and Hillary on TPP?

ImpAtom posted:

Do you think that rejecting TPP will save those jobs?

I feel rejecting TPP would slow the rate of loss, if not outright prevent them.

seiferguy posted:

Granted, it will never come back to what the US is, so the US needs to adapt their economy into a manufacturing one to a manufacturing / service hybrid marketplace.

edit: it's absolutely true the TPP fight is a proxy battle similar to keystone. The policies aren't going to drastically change the American worker. It's just that gut instinct to yell out against free trade.

Adapting to a manufacturing / service hybrid marketplace doesn't do anything to stop a race to the bottom, which is one of the main reasons I oppose TPP and other free trade deals.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:08

evil_bunnY: Apr 2, 2003

Mahoning posted:

Oh god, do Portman now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEqx-Ccr9UY

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:08

Chokes McGee: Aug 7, 2008; This is Urotsuki.

Nice mel---

sean10mm posted:

Nice meltdown.

God dammit

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:09

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

a shameful boehner posted:

Again, can anyone explain the divide between Obama and Hillary on TPP?

One's running for office, and one isn't.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:09

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

Look at all of you hyper capitalists railing so hard against Full Communism Now!

You'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:09

ImpAtom: May 24, 2007

Noam Chomsky posted:

Adapt to the bread lines.

If we as a nation can't figure out what to do in a world of increased automation then, yeah, we're pretty hosed. Better to start dealing with this issue now instead of pretending we can turn back the clock.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:10

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Taerkar posted:

Look at all of you hyper capitalists railing so hard against Full Communism Now!

You'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

I looooove outsourcing!!

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:10

evil_bunnY: Apr 2, 2003

zoux posted:

None of that poo poo is within 500 miles of why people are mad about TPP

I meant americans as in the american govnt, sorry.

BI NOW GAY LATER posted:

These claims were largely debunked.

SOURCES

No but really. I want to read more.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:10

kaleedity: Feb 27, 2016

the issue that no one really wants to discuss is that the (read: somewhat over-glorified) success of the American middle class sharing gains of the economy in the 50s-70s isn't going to happen any time in the future anywhere.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:10

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

ImpAtom posted:

If we as a nation can't figure out what to do in a world of increased automation then, yeah, we're pretty hosed. Better to start dealing with this issue now instead of pretending we can turn back the clock.

Pretty sure you forgot what country you're living in, probably what planet you're on.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:10

axeil: Feb 14, 2006

Noam Chomsky posted:

I already posted a few sources that call out the 700,000 jobs lost from just the trade deficit with Mexico.

If corporations can do whatever they want then why do they lobby for these trade agreements?

I can't quite figure out why so many posters are ultra pro-NAFTA. You guys must own a ton of stock.

Also, again, no one has talked about getting those jobs back, but rather keeping the jobs that are left.

Goons: leftists until we start talking about trade policy. What a loving joke.

Actually free trade is good and gently caress protectionism. I like having nice goods everyone can afford, not just the super rich.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:11

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

a shameful boehner posted:

Again, can anyone explain the divide between Obama and Hillary on TPP?

It was an easy bone to throw to the Berniebros.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:11

ImpAtom: May 24, 2007

Noam Chomsky posted:

Pretty sure you forgot what country you're living in, probably what planet you're on.

People refusing to deal with it doesn't mean it isn't the answer. See also: Coal.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:11

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# ? May 26, 2024 15:55

sean10mm: Jun 29, 2005; It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World

I'm still mad that my USPOL August: The Vindication of Prester Jane by the Narcissist Donald Trump title hasn't been used yet. :bahgawd:

Chokes McGee posted:

Nice mel---

God dammit

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:11

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