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drilldo squirt posted:The European built their wealth from looting the world and now some of that world is running away from the dumpster fire you left behind and Europeans are loosing their goddam mind over it. Which parts did Finland and Poland loot?
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Aug 10, 2016 02:39
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The worst thing about European racism is whenever it's brought up Europeans act like they are being attacked personally and will do everything in their power to deflect.
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Aug 10, 2016 02:42
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Nitrousoxide posted:America is literally a nation of immigrants. That's actually a smaller proportion of foreign born residents than many European states, and is comparable to the demographics in Norway, Belgium, Spain or the UK. I'm sure many of those foreign born Europeans don't count 'cause they just moved from France or Ireland and are good cultural christian secularists or w/e but that number alone doesn't mean very much in this context. As a point of reference, more than 20% of Canadian residents are foreign born, and a whopping 28% of Swiss, Australian and New Zealand residents! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population
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Aug 10, 2016 02:43
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drilldo squirt posted:I don't know dude with all the minorities here angry white people can't really do whatever they want anymore so I feel a lot safer here than in Germany where they ignore neo nazis going on a killing sprees. NSU shot what, 10 people? American cops shoot more blacks in a single day, son. edit: Actually make that a week. no reason for hyperbole. Velkest fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 02:52
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Squalid posted:That's actually a smaller proportion of foreign born residents than many European states, and is comparable to the demographics in Norway, Belgium, Spain or the UK. I'm sure many of those foreign born Europeans don't count 'cause they just moved from France or Ireland and are good cultural christian secularists or w/e but that number alone doesn't mean very much in this context. I mean if you want to include immigrants from other EU countries (as there are nearly zero barriers to moving between EU states) than we should include immigrants from other US states. Most states only seem to have around 40%-60% of people who were born there staying there. Some states only have 25%! http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/13/upshot/where-people-in-each-state-were-born.html
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Aug 10, 2016 02:56
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Nitrousoxide posted:I mean if you want to include immigrants from other EU countries (as there are nearly zero barriers to moving between EU states) than we should include immigrants from other US states. That's dumb. The EU isn't a country, whatever their aspirations may be. Differences in language and income levels are far more different between EU countries than they are between US states, just as differences in language and income levels are far more different between Western European countries and Syria than they are between the US and Mexico.
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Aug 10, 2016 03:02
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Sinteres posted:That's dumb. The EU isn't a country, whatever their aspirations may be. Differences in language and income levels are far more different between EU countries than they are between US states, just as differences in language and income levels are far more different between Western European countries and Syria than they are between the US and Mexico. No comparison will be perfect. But if you're going to pump Europe's numbers by including other EU nations to show how enlightened the EU is in accepting brown people than you should make as similar a comparison as possible by including migration between US states which have similar barriers to movement as between EU countries.
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Aug 10, 2016 03:07
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Nitrousoxide posted:No comparison will be perfect. But if you're going to pump Europe's numbers by including other EU nations to show how enlightened the EU is in accepting brown people than you should make as similar a comparison as possible by including migration between US states which have similar barriers to movement as between EU countries. Compared to the US, european countries are infinitely more accepting of "brown" people. The US "accepted" "brown people" of african desccent only once every trace of their origin country, save for skin colour ofc, was erased. How many African Americans speak an african language? How many of them believe in an african religion, like their ancestors did? Just about none. They are english speaking christians, predominantly. If you are suggesting slavery and the thus enforced assimilation of slaves into the slaveholder's culture as a method of integrating "refugees" into european societies, I will have to disappoint you. That's not legal under european national law nor EU law. lol america and enlightened
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Aug 10, 2016 03:36
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Nitrousoxide posted:No comparison will be perfect. But if you're going to pump Europe's numbers by including other EU nations to show how enlightened the EU is in accepting brown people than you should make as similar a comparison as possible by including migration between US states which have similar barriers to movement as between EU countries. Lol sorry the parameters you posted don't support your own argument. If you think percent foreign born numbers have been "pumped" up why did even share the numbers in the first place?
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Aug 10, 2016 03:38
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This "you are more racist than us" discussion is really loving stupid.
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Aug 10, 2016 03:39
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For the record, I think the US and Western Europe are probably equally racist. America however has more experience both punishing and marginalizing minorities and more practice pretending it isn't doing so for racist reasons.
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Aug 10, 2016 03:44
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Andrast posted:This "you are more racist than us" discussion is really loving stupid. Welcome to D&D.
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Aug 10, 2016 04:20
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Nitrousoxide posted:No comparison will be perfect. But if you're going to pump Europe's numbers by including other EU nations to show how enlightened the EU is in accepting brown people than you should make as similar a comparison as possible by including migration between US states which have similar barriers to movement as between EU countries. One of the EU's biggest problems is that members are not like states, and thus no EU-wide solutions can be effectively implemented. Also there is much racism against other EU-members. Brexit was largely about poor Englanders angry at Poles and others from the EU for taking their jobs. Greece was run into the ground because they are lazy Southerners that need a firm hand to teach them a lesson. So, you can't just arbitrarily decide to consider EU countries to be like US states because it suits your argument better.
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Aug 10, 2016 06:59
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Squalid posted:America however has more experience both punishing and marginalizing minorities and more practice pretending it isn't doing so for racist reasons. I'd dispute that. France is also very good at punishing/marginalizing ethnic and/or religious minorities while being ostensibly colorblind.
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Aug 10, 2016 07:32
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Kassad posted:I'd dispute that. France is also very good at punishing/marginalizing ethnic and/or religious minorities while being ostensibly colorblind.
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Aug 10, 2016 07:37
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Squalid posted:America however has more experience both punishing and marginalizing minorities ...more experience then Western Europe?  Kassad posted:I'd dispute that. France is also very good at punishing/marginalizing ethnic and/or religious minorities while being ostensibly colorblind. If the sentence "I don't see race, I can't be racist!" was a country it would be France This is a dumb conversation though even though it's pretty fun how Americans think Europe isn't racist because we don't have the whole "black/white/brown/ohyeahasianstooIguess thing going on. Like the whole "white people" thing isn't really that big of a thing in Europe because in Europe "racism" has usually meant thinking the next country over whose people are genetically/physically indistinguishable from you are sub-human apes. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 08:26
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Hogge Wild posted:Which parts did Ukraine. 
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Aug 10, 2016 09:07
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Boner Slaem posted:
Christian teachings do not mean you are required to a) help people if you can't afford it b) put them up in your own home c) let them stay or finance them forever d) support them if they cause social unrest in your community e) let them put demands on you The common good was everything for St. Thomas Aquinas and he would have told us to not take in Muslims because they are opposed to Christianity's teachings.
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Aug 10, 2016 09:13
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Oh now!that was a disgusting atack on the caracter of sub-human apes and i will not stand here and allow a filthy spaniard commit such cowardly atacks on the good name of bononos! Btw what the hell Spain elect a loving goverment already who do you think you are?Belgians?
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Aug 10, 2016 09:13
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lmao, some drunk American stumbling into the thread and rambling about immigrant paradise America only to be shut down by freaking switzerland. overall I have the impression that both continents are equally bad at integration. there are some great success stories on both sides, like Germany taking in 2 mio Russians and turning them into model Germans in a generation or the US doing the same with Vietnamese refugees, but both sides have some terrible horror stories too, for example north Africans in France or black people in the US.
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Aug 10, 2016 09:58
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waitwhatno posted:lmao, some drunk American stumbling into the thread and rambling about immigrant paradise America only to be shut down by freaking switzerland. Successful integration is not something dependent solely on the accomodating culture. Adapting to new environments is an obvious requirement for flourishing for any immigrant. So perhaps it is not simply continents that are lovely at integrating people but some people being shittier at adapting than others? Heck, there is even empirical evidence that many problems faced by Muslim immigrants to Europe are due to their hidebound clinging to old ways and unwillingness to seek contacts with the majority society, thereby isolating themselves from language skills and job opportunities. https://www.wzb.eu/de/pressemitteilung/muslime-auf-dem-arbeitsmarkt
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Aug 10, 2016 10:49
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Way I see it if we could arbitrarily place the Jewish diaspora in Palestine and say "now it's Israel" we can gut out a large part of... let's say Austria there's nothing of worth there... and make it New Syria.
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Aug 10, 2016 11:07
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Einbauschrank posted:Successful integration is not something dependent solely on the accomodating culture. It isn't but as you demonstrate Einbauschrank posted:So perhaps it is not simply continents that are lovely at integrating people but some people being shittier at adapting than others? most people who say this immediately make the case that it is solely dependent on the immigrant culture. Einbauschrank posted:Heck, there is even empirical evidence that many problems faced by Muslim immigrants to Europe are due to their hidebound clinging to old ways and unwillingness to seek contacts with the majority society, thereby isolating themselves from language skills and job opportunities. Yes and? There are plenty of natives that isolate themselves from society and cling to their old ways. There are plenty of Muslims that don't. The problem is that the hidebound Muslims are attacked for doing the exact same thing that hidebound natives do, and non-hidebound Muslims who speak the language and seek job opportunities actively still face harder time even if they are doing what people like you berate at them to do. Also most Muslim immigrants in Europe came here to work directly (Gastarbeiter, 1960's-70's North African labor migrants) so they did not really do anything you describe here. As for refugees if you think being an illiterate goatherd who doesn't speak the language is automatically "clinging into their old ways" and not a massive obstacle to employment through no fault of the person themselves which will take at the minimum multiple years to correct, you have a weird sense of things.
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Aug 10, 2016 11:09
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Tesseraction posted:Way I see it if we could arbitrarily place the Jewish diaspora in Palestine and say "now it's Israel" we can gut out a large part of... let's say Austria there's nothing of worth there... and make it New Syria. Sounds fair.
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Aug 10, 2016 11:15
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Tesseraction posted:Way I see it if we could arbitrarily place the Jewish diaspora in Palestine and say "now it's Israel" we can gut out a large part of... let's say Austria there's nothing of worth there... and make it New Syria. Look at this guy! Wants to commit genocide of Germans in Austria and Jews in Palestine at the same time! Is this a two for one special or something?
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Aug 10, 2016 11:17
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Velkest posted:NSU shot what, 10 people? American cops shoot more blacks in a single day, son. I'm not sure how the two things are related. I mean they are both problems but this isn't the American thread we have one for that. It's just a demonstration of the massive amounts of unaddressed racism inherent in the European system.
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Aug 10, 2016 11:21
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Riso posted:Look at this guy! Hey man, I said nothing about killing Jewish people, leave your personal fantasies to yourself. And we wouldn't kill you, we'd displace you so you can apply to Germany as refugees.
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Aug 10, 2016 11:22
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Tesseraction posted:Hey man, I said nothing about killing Jewish people, leave your personal fantasies to yourself. And we wouldn't kill you, we'd displace you so you can apply to Germany as refugees. Well, the if we compare how Germany and the Arab countries have integrated displaced people after WW2 this would probably work out just fine for Germany. As long as neo-Syria builds a wall to keep the Syrians in I'm not opposed to this plan, even though it means the Golden Apple will fall.
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Aug 10, 2016 11:36
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drilldo squirt posted:I'm not sure how the two things are related. I mean they are both problems but this isn't the American thread we have one for that. It's just a demonstration of the massive amounts of unaddressed racism inherent in the European system. word, there were several special police task forces investigating the NSU murders over the years and they all suspected that it was some badass Turkish/Greek Anton Chigur doing the murders or that it was something related to organized crime. investigators were so desperate for any leads that one time they lied to a grieving widow about finding evidence of her husband cheating on her, just trying to fish for any kind of information. any theories that it may have be national socialist terrorism were dismissed as implausible.
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Aug 10, 2016 11:40
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waitwhatno posted:word, there were several special police task forces investigating the NSU murders over the years and they all suspected that it was some badass Turkish/Greek Anton Chigur doing the murders or that it was something related to organized crime. investigators were so desperate for any leads that one time they lied to a grieving widow about finding evidence of her husband cheating on her, just trying to fish for any kind of information. Because it wasn't really terrorism until the police found out about it given that no one knew it were nazis.
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Aug 10, 2016 11:54
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Tesseraction posted:Hey man, I said nothing about killing Jewish people, leave your personal fantasies to yourself. And we wouldn't kill you, we'd displace you so you can apply to Germany as refugees. I'm sure the Austrians could just live on the Graz Strip and the West Bank of the Danube.
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Aug 10, 2016 11:54
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DarkCrawler posted:It isn't but as you demonstrate I wrote "not simply continents" to show that there are additonal aspects without ignoring the already stated one. You do seem to have a problem with level-headed discussion. Try to stick to what is written instead of imputation, give some leeway instead of assuming the worst and cut the hyperbole. Voicing a different opinion than the one you hold dear is not a sign of stupidity or a bad character, so simply assume I am neither for the moment. quote:Yes and? There are plenty of natives that isolate themselves from society and cling to their old ways. There are plenty of Muslims that don't. The problem is that the hidebound Muslims are attacked for doing the exact same thing that hidebound natives do, and non-hidebound Muslims who speak the language and seek job opportunities actively still face harder time even if they are doing what people like you berate at them to do. The article disputes that "ethnic penalties" are the biggest factor. Hidebound natives still should be able to speak the language and to know the mores of their native society, which contributes to their "cultural capital", which is why it is less of a drawback for them to be hidebound. That's why I wrote that is an obvious requirement for *migrants* to adapt if they want to flourish. To use your example: They might have been a drat good "illiterate goatherd", but this won't help them much. So they *have* to change if they want to flourish. Also, this is not about "attacking" Muslims but about refuting the claim that are shut out of the labour market due to "being Muslim", but rather to them not adapting as well as others. quote:Also most Muslim immigrants in Europe came here to work directly (Gastarbeiter, 1960's-70's North African labor migrants) so they did not really do anything you describe here. As for refugees if you think being an illiterate goatherd who doesn't speak the language is automatically "clinging into their old ways" and not a massive obstacle to employment through no fault of the person themselves which will take at the minimum multiple years to correct, you have a weird sense of things. The big question of the linked article is why - Muslim migrants more than comparable groups - weren't able to acquire higher levels of cultural competency even if the first generation had a job (they still have a higher rate of unemployment today than following generations), thereby making it more difficult for the next generation to find employment in an evolving labour market. One thing the study hints at is the tendency of Muslim migrants to shut their women out of social and labour market participation and thereby slow down the process of cultural assimilation compared to non-Muslim groups. Also, this study this not refer to refugees. But as refugees are supposed to go back to their country of origin -other than labour immigrants -once the troubles are over, this is another can of worms alltogether and therefore a separate discussion. If you have access to a university library you can find the extended version of the article in "Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies", 42:2
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Aug 10, 2016 11:56
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GaussianCopula posted:Because it wasn't really terrorism until the police found out about it given that no one knew it were nazis. yeah, setting off a nail bomb in the center of one of the biggest cities in Germany, injuring 20+ people, is clearly not terrorism. how could they have known? poor police, HOW could they have known? above anything else, there was no reason to suspect that the murdered people were involved in organized crime. these seemingly random assassinations had only one thing in common and that was that the victims were swarthy looking. the immigrant communities were certainly terrorised by the murders and police could have at least tried investigating into that direction, but nope, gotta be Turkish mob assassinations, no other possible explanation. and let's not even talk about how much the Verfassungsschutz knew and how it was involved. we'll probably not know for decades to come, but it wouldn't surprise me if some seriously shady poo poo went down. poo poo that could get you prison time.
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Aug 10, 2016 12:23
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YF-23 posted:I'm sure the Austrians could just live on the Graz Strip and the West Bank of the Danube. 
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Aug 10, 2016 12:37
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Einbauschrank posted:I wrote "not simply continents" to show that there are additonal aspects without ignoring the already stated one. You do seem to have a problem with level-headed discussion. Try to stick to what is written instead of imputation, give some leeway instead of assuming the worst and cut the hyperbole. Voicing a different opinion than the one you hold dear is not a sign of stupidity or a bad character, so simply assume I am neither for the moment. Apologies for the lovely tone. I'll reply to this post in full if you provide me with the study. I can't read German and I don't have access to a university library in Germany (or here, at least I am pretty sure). It's one study, many others contradict it and it's pretty useless for me to try to respond if I don't even have the material being discussed. For what it is worth atm, I don't dispute that conservative Muslims share the blame. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 12:54
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waitwhatno posted:yeah, setting off a nail bomb in the center of one of the biggest cities in Germany, injuring 20+ people, is clearly not terrorism. how could they have known? poor police, HOW could they have known? As wikipedia sums up "terrorism is mainly a communication strategy". And nobody claimed to be responsible for this attack, neither did anyone claim responsibility for the other killings. But, an extremist crime was thought possible in the beginning. Apparently under pressure from the Ministry of the Interior of NRW, (led by Behrens, SPD), police stopped mentioning this theory early on. quote:above anything else, there was no reason to suspect that the murdered people were involved in organized crime. these seemingly random assassinations had only one thing in common and that was that the victims were swarthy looking. the immigrant communities were certainly terrorised by the murders and police could have at least tried investigating into that direction, but nope, gotta be Turkish mob assassinations, no other possible explanation. Most of the time the police was clueless, only in 2006 did a profiler bring them onto the right track and the whole "organized crime stuff" was abandoned, but most of the time they stumbled about. They also didn't realize the connection to the murder of a police woman in 2007 until 2011. So police incompetence wasn't restricted to swarthy people but also extended towards their own. quote:and let's not even talk about how much the Verfassungsschutz knew and how it was involved. we'll probably not know for decades to come, but it wouldn't surprise me if some seriously shady poo poo went down. poo poo that could get you prison time. I am not a big fan of convoluted conspirationist theories if we have Byzantine structures and a police operating at the state level trying to get hold of a group that worked on the federal level. But yes, the Verfassungsschutz working separately from the police (e: and not being held to any level of scrutiny), the police work being divided over several German states and additionaly at the federal level did not help. My guess: This mainly shows how badly organized and probably also understaffed police in Germany is and that apparently political pressure being applied to look better (Cologne again, cough, cough) is too effective. Because many higher civil servants (like high ranking police presidents) are political beasts and therefore spittle lickers with party connections. Einbauschrank fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 13:12
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DarkCrawler posted:Apologies for the lovely tone. I am always glad when a discussion gets back on track, so thank you. The Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies is an international one, so the study is in English and should be available from many university libraries or even state libraries. I cannot copy and paste the whole article, but the abstract should be OK: quote:Numerous studies have shown that even after controlling for relevant
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Aug 10, 2016 13:30
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Well again, that is just the basic argument he has, I don't get to see the methodology, I don't know what exactly he means by "interethnic social ties", no idea how he addresses (pretty blatant) findings on employment discrimination, etc. But even arguing from the basic viewpoint, it seems to me that he is just saying that being a conservative dick makes it harder to get a job - which I agree, but we put different expectations on immigrants as to being a conservative rear end in a top hat is. There are many native Christian/Ideological sects in my country and I assume in others - which restrain their women, believe bad things about gays, engage mostly with their "own kind". In my country they far outnumber all the immigrants put together (even the non-Muslim kind) But they are still part of the ethnic/cultural majority group, have political and financial power and have been here for hundreds of years, so their religious bullshit is tolerated while the new people's religious bullshit (the kind that doesn't interfere with the others) is somehow against integration to the majority community. As far as I think, the only valid reason for not being part of the majority community is language and literacy (and you can go half-assed on the literacy too). However an immigrant or minority meets far more discrimination even when they aren't conservative assholes compared to the majority group, and are fluent and educated. So I would posit that a conservative Muslim is institutionally disadvantaged as well and doesn't get away with the same poo poo that the majority conservatives get away with while still managing to operate. Hence their problems in gaining employment as conservative rear end in a top hat Muslims specifically. As seen above, religious discrimination in employment as well as other areas is very real. More material anyway: http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/156-Manifestations_EN.pdf http://www.amnesty.eu/content/assets/REPORT.pdf Furthermore, to address the ethnic penalties specifically, anything I've read on it doesn't certainly make it to be the fault of the immigrants themselves. For example: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/a-muslims-europe-20110214_0.pdf quote:“ethnic penalties must not be equated with discrimination perse, although discrimination is likely to be one major component of the ethnic penalties” It's insanely likely in the case of European Muslims. France, with Algeria (the largest single source of Muslim immigrants), was more or less a literal apartheid nation until 1962. Discrimination based on race was legal in UK until 1965. Germany just kind of assumed that Turks would just leave unlike literally any workers ever (and when German industry was actively fighting against skilled reliable workers leaving) and made no actions to integrate them into the society or even teach them the language until like early 1970's. That's a lot of reasons to miss on the opportunity for the first generation, especially when they had less opportunities to start with. Not to start an argument about who is the most racist continent again (it's Australia, including the animals) but Europe up until the early 2000's was hella loving racist, the change in my own lifetime has frankly been astonishing. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 14:07
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ChainsawCharlie posted:
Spain is not a real country, it's a jail that imprisons my catalonian, basque and galician brothers. Velkest posted:Compared to the US, european countries are infinitely more accepting of "brown" people. The US "accepted" "brown people" of african desccent only once every trace of their origin country, save for skin colour ofc, was erased. You do realize that all Africans who come to Europe are either Christian or Muslims too right? Where are all these pagan Africans that are coming to Europe? Africans in Europe speak Creole because that's literally a mixture of the native and colonial languages, african americans don't speak creole because they've spoken english for ages during slavery. what a stupid argument. and slavery is not legal under any european national law, but there's a difference between de jure opposition to slavery and de facto being 0% slavery in europe. It's the summer time, go to literally any small or medium sized farm in Portugal Spain or France. Go ahead.
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Aug 10, 2016 14:29
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Mans posted:slavery is not legal under any european national law, but there's a difference between de jure opposition to slavery and de facto being 0% slavery in europe. What I've learned from this thread is that keeping migrants out is monstrously inhumane, and giving them jobs is slavery.
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Aug 10, 2016 15:02
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