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Aschlafly posted:chuckle, snort That was a very clear statement of intention. I am beginning to think that you and moridin are in cahoots and don't actually believe this vile garbage you're pushing.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:03
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Nobody is really talking about pronouns though, that just got brought up this page. I think what's really going on is that something just strikes you as "wrong" about trans people and you can't articulate the reason (because there is essentially no reason), so you're fumbling to come up with a post hoc justification for it. Nothing inherently wrong with that; it's something we all do and it's arguably a part of being human. Recognizing it and second-guessing it when it happens are a learning experience, though.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:02
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a dog from hell posted:That was a very clear statement of intention. I am beginning to think that you and moridin are in cahoots and don't actually believe this vile garbage you're pushing. it was a very clear statement of bias with an attempt at justification by a misinterpretation of Wittgenstein mallfucker im in cahoots and don't believe this 'vile garbage' bc your arguments make no sense
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Aug 15, 2016 20:04
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to be clear, "vile garbage" here having the meaning of "treat people nicely and as you'd want to be treated."
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Aug 15, 2016 20:06
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Moridin920 posted:lol you better review your Wittgenstein next time you come with some weak poo poo like that, that's all. don't be mad bc I brutally owned you Actually you may have me there. I addressed the rank and file argument rather than letting you arrive there yourself. Regardless, it is a perversion because it does not accomplish any tangible goals and it is misleading. When you change the pronouns you change the way people think about other people. It is brainwashing and that is the true purpose.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:07
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a dog from hell posted:Regardless, it is a perversion because it does not accomplish any tangible goals and it is misleading. it lets me know they are a trans person without me having to visually inspect them idk man like I see where you are coming from but I just feel like you're a little too worried about it is all. If you're right (and yeah you prolly are) then they won't become a thing anyway and you're huffing about nothing. If you're wrong and they DO become a thing, then there's obviously a purpose and reason for it. (idk if this quote is you or not I'm just grabbing it from below) quote:It's not that "how dare someone ask me to change my language", it's more like I don't appreciate people trying to force me to become a liar. I don't tell people what to do or believe because I don't care for it when people shove their beliefs down my throat. Especially when you try to force me to take part in your delusion. If you're like "say that God is real and the earth is flat or else" I'll tell you to go gently caress yourself. like dang man you are way overthinking this imo
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Aug 15, 2016 20:07
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Gammatron 64 posted:Those are silly too. quote:It's not that "how dare someone ask me to change my language", it's more like I don't appreciate people trying to force me to become a liar. I don't tell people what to do or believe because I don't care for it when people shove their beliefs down my throat. Especially when you try to force me to take part in your delusion. If you're like "say that God is real and the earth is flat or else" I'll tell you to go gently caress yourself.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:08
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Moridin920 posted:to be clear, "vile garbage" here having the meaning of "treat people nicely and as you'd want to be treated." Actually the meaning here is changing the way people think about gender in order to nullify it and further deluding the already very deluded west. I find that reprehensible and I will resist it.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:09
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tbh what is gender anyway but a social contruct it's not like God decreed this and that's all there can be forever. it's a social construct which leaves humans free to define and redefine as they will. If that's true then obv 2 words can't be it forever.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:09
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Moridin920 posted:to be clear, "vile garbage" here having the meaning of "treat people nicely and as you'd want to be treated." Man I always hear complaints about how trans people, gay people, feminists, SJWs, etc. are "sensitive" but the butthurt from people who are triggered by "hey please use these pronouns when you refer to me" is palpable.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:10
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^^^^ yeah. also sorry I jumped down your throat earlier i misread your post. in 200 years if there are half robot people who want to be referred to as 'it' are you gonna say 'but that's not a real gender!'
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Aug 15, 2016 20:11
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Moridin920 posted:it lets me know they are a trans person without me having to visually inspect them I'm not worried. Everything is a warm river of piss and I don't mind if LGBT makes hay while the sun shines. I just don't support it because it has nothing to do with me. I give people respect on the basis of the individual and only argue this dumb poo poo online. And that's the end of it, I guess.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:10
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https://twitter.com/magicnanners/status/730067880688136192
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Aug 15, 2016 20:12
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a dog from hell posted:I'm not worried. Everything is a warm river of piss and I don't mind if LGBT makes hay while the sun shines. I just don't support it because it has nothing to do with me. I give people respect on the basis of the individual and only argue this dumb poo poo online. And that's the end of it, I guess. well that's fair enough and I'd buy you a beer
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Aug 15, 2016 20:11
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a dog from hell posted:Actually the meaning here is changing the way people think about gender in order to nullify it and further deluding the already very deluded west. I find that reprehensible and I will resist it.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:12
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Accepting genderfluidity is accepting that someone with female chromosomes, who was born with female genitalia, socialized as a girl, went through puberty with female hormones and developed female secondary sex characteristics can suddenly decide that they are not a woman, but some combination of man and woman, or alternate at whim. Can the person above reject stereotypical gender roles? Of course! A person can act however they want, while still being what they are. Are they suddenly as much a man as anyone else, even though the extend of their masculine "queering" is wearing short hair and a bowtie?
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Aug 15, 2016 20:13
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Moridin920 posted:^^^^ yeah. also sorry I jumped down your throat earlier i misread your post.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:13
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Aug 15, 2016 20:14
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Frosted Flake posted:Accepting genderfluidity is accepting that someone with female chromosomes, who was born with female genitalia, socialized as a girl, went through puberty with female hormones and developed female secondary sex characteristics can suddenly decide that they are not a woman, but some combination of man and woman, or alternate at whim.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:15
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Frosted Flake posted:Are they suddenly as much a man as anyone else, even though the extend of their masculine "queering" is wearing short hair and a bowtie? im a man and i like to crossdress and have women make fun of my small dick (it's average sized but you know) and tell me I'm prolly gay and that I'd like to suck cum down my holes all day long while I agree and masturbate at their feet with a dildo up my rear end so sure they're just as much a man as anyone else. being a "man" is just as much a bullshit construct of the patriarchy as anything else honk honk
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Aug 15, 2016 20:17
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lol if your own 'manliness' or sense of identity is threatened by what other people choose to do that's called insecurity dogs HONK HONK
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Aug 15, 2016 20:18
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Aschlafly posted:Seems to me that if people are allowed to "choose", and be recognized as, the gender they want, that would make them less likely, not more likely, to undergo gender reassignment surgery. I do find trans people somewhat unnerving, largely because I've never met a transwoman who I couldn't immediately tell was "off" in some way. I don't think there's no reason for that, I think men can tell that women are women, be it through pheremones or other stimuli, unless you've been drinking a whole lot. I think trans men are easier to obscure their identities since even now fully biological women can easily pass as male with some simple make-up adjustments. It's harder for a developed man to become as a woman. I actually fully support people being allowed to dress and act as whatever gender they want (adults can make their own decisions about their own bodies), but I do not feel like I must be obligated to wholeheartedly embrace their identity. I refer to trans people as their preferred gender pronouns largely out of politeness, which I think can be expected largely of anybody, but I do not think a trans woman is actually a woman, nor a trans man a man. Even if you only define sex by physical attributes, there's huge differences in how male and female bodies develop. It's why a trans woman should not be allowed to compete in women's athletics if they were a former male athlete. Their bone structure, muscle size, and so on gives an unfair advantage. The bottom line is that the entire reasoning seems to stem out of a completely non-scientific source. It flies in the face of evolutionary theory, basic biology, and it involves a lot of mental gymnastics and strange societal renovations to accomodate that it begs the question as to why we're even trying to do this in the first place?
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Aug 15, 2016 20:23
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I do find trans people somewhat unnerving, largely because I've never met a transwoman who I couldn't immediately tell was "off" in some way. I don't think there's no reason for that, I think men can tell that women are women, be it through pheremones or other stimuli, unless you've been drinking a whole lot. I think trans men are easier to obscure their identities since even now fully biological women can easily pass as male with some simple make-up adjustments. It's harder for a developed man to become as a woman. I think if you're honest with yourself you'll realize this is a whole boatload of confirmation bias. If you couldn't tell they were trans then you wouldn't know unless they explicitly told you so of course the only trans people you meet and realize are trans are the ones who you can tell aren't really what they are presenting. fwiw anyway dude no one is saying you have to wholeheartedly embrace it or whatever, just that you should be chill irl and not get all hot and bothered about what bathroom they are choosing to use
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Aug 15, 2016 20:26
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Using science we can conclude that since men are 6x more likely to be killed by lightening men are 6x more positive than woman. Smile more, toots, be less negative, and just maybe then you will get that pay raise.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:28
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Hmm clearly this person is simultaneously both a man and a woman, worthy of a different set of pronouns and totally not mentally ill. e: Anecdotally every transman and (female) genderqueer person I know has a history of sexual abuse, but surely that can't have anything to do with their total rejection of their gender, right?
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Aug 15, 2016 20:30
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would it fuckin kill you to just be nice to them though regardless of your opinion
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Aug 15, 2016 20:31
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I refer to trans people as their preferred gender pronouns largely out of politeness, which I think can be expected largely of anybody, but I do not think a trans woman is actually a woman, nor a trans man a man. quote:Even if you only define sex by physical attributes, there's huge differences in how male and female bodies develop. It's why a trans woman should not be allowed to compete in women's athletics if they were a former male athlete. Their bone structure, muscle size, and so on gives an unfair advantage. quote:The bottom line is that the entire reasoning seems to stem out of a completely non-scientific source. It flies in the face of evolutionary theory, basic biology, and it involves a lot of mental gymnastics and strange societal renovations to accomodate that it begs the question as to why we're even trying to do this in the first place? I don't really see what "basic biology" is being contradicted. There is no "biological" mandate for any particular scheme of pronoun use or any particular set of bathroom laws. The idea that men pee and poo poo in one place and women do so in another is a social construct, not a biological one. Some languages (Finnish comes to mind) don't have separate gender pronouns. Others assign genders to pretty much everything (e.g., most Indo-European languages other than English). No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you "you must profess that this trans woman was in fact born with two X chromosomes and has functional ovaries, or you will be sent to a re-education camp, citizen".
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Aug 15, 2016 20:33
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Aschlafly posted:What exactly is the "delusion" you're referring to? No one is pretending biology doesn't exist (though even at the biological level, "sex" is a lot messier than it's often portrayed: there are all sorts of ways someone can fail to be fully biologically "male" or "female"). The social aspect of "gender" is a separate issue. For that matter, if making "gender is nonbinary" a more mainstream idea causes people to feel more comfortable in their own bodies, it's hard to see what the problem could possibly be. The problem is that adopting the vernacular makes me uncomfortable and is not a reasonable demand. If you refuse to choose one or the other than similarly I can choose to to refuse to take you seriously. The delusion is an outright denial of basic certainties in life. I understand the problem, I share this culture and I know how confusing it can be. This problem is an offshoot. People are always going to be uncomfortable, life is not a comfortable thing. So when the material necessities are there and the culture is unwell and machinistic and the people are unaware, they will experience dysphoria. I choose to retrace our steps rather than continue this march into uncertain, untenuous territory. Anyway we have exited semantics and entered an opposition of basic beliefs and I have lost interest in this argument.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:36
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Frosted Flake posted:Hmm clearly this person is simultaneously both a man and a woman, worthy of a different set of pronouns and totally not mentally ill. Look my dad thought the oven was talking to him and his doctor wanted to give him psyche meds, but I decided instead to just tell my dad that the oven WAS in fact talking to him and now he is living a much happier life conversing with our oven regularly. Moridin920 posted:would it fuckin kill you to just be nice to them though regardless of your opinion If they aren't all smug and condescending about how brave and unique and snowflakey they are then sure thing.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:38
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The "smugness" and "condescension" mostly seem to be coming from the "well, I refuse to adulterate MY English language" types, not the "hey dude, I've suffered a lot due to being deeply uncomfortable in my body, would it kill you to refer to me by a different set of pronouns y/n" types.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:41
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Aschlafly posted:Then you have a disagreement about the meaning of words, not about reality. The map is not the territory. Which words? I mean, if you're saying the map is not the territory, I agree. A transwoman is not a woman, she's a man pretending to be a woman. That's the territory. The map is calling them "she". quote:Depending on the individual athletic association, this reasoning is often rejected. Many of the advantages associated with growing up male disappear after years of hormone therapy (in fact trans women often have much lower testosterone than cis women, due to lacking ovaries). Changes in bone density and bone structure occur, too. Whether it is "fair" to let trans women compete with cis women is ultimately a judgment call that will have to be made by doctors and sport scientists, not Internet armchair experts. So yeah, okay, ten years later a trans woman can then compete at a woman's level, maybe. My big example for this is the world of MMA fighting, where a fighter transitioned and wanted to take part in women's sports, where the issue of their build was brought forward. Agreed, if this is to persist, more study should be done, and I'd ultimately advocate for a third league to allow those...in-between...to participate, if we must. quote:It's a good thing we don't make laws based on evolutionary theory. Indeed society is arguably "civilized" to the extent that it moves beyond the instincts we've evolved. Basic biology is that male organisms possess the male sex organs and female possess the reproductive organs. Human beings and primates, unlike some fish and amphibians, cannot change their biological sex on their own in any natural way. Men and women grow and develop very differently from one another, and are better suited to different things--women tend to be more creative and smarter, men stronger and faster, etc. These are objective facts based upon years of scientific observation. There is no scientific basis to transsexuality--human beings will never transition naturally in their lives, and it is considered a birth defect to be born as a hermaphrodite or intersex, and one that is usually corrected immediately. In terms of society, yes, we definitely have gender roles for men and women, roles that are constantly being questioned. If you are only seeking society to change its perceptions of gender, then I still ask: why?
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Aug 15, 2016 20:42
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Aschlafly posted:The "smugness" and "condescension" mostly seem to be coming from the "well, I refuse to adulterate MY English language" types, not the "hey dude, I've suffered a lot due to being deeply uncomfortable in my body, would it kill you to refer to me by a different set of pronouns y/n" types. I think it's more about people not wanting to normalize legitimate, treatable mental illness than not wanting to learn some new words. Obviously, insofar as somebody has suffered I want them to be helped, I think we just disagree on whether hacking off their genitals is helping them. Suicide rate post-op would indicate it's not. EDIT: just to be clear I'm mainly concerned with people who undergo surgery\hormone therapy. People who are very concerned with pronouns and poo poo are almost universally insufferable cunts who are obsessed with themselves (NOT ALL of course) but that's just my personal observation. Secular Humanist fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 20:47
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Which words? I mean, if you're saying the map is not the territory, I agree. A transwoman is not a woman, she's a man pretending to be a woman. That's the territory. The map is calling them "she". quote:So yeah, okay, ten years later a trans woman can then compete at a woman's level, maybe. My big example for this is the world of MMA fighting, where a fighter transitioned and wanted to take part in women's sports, where the issue of their build was brought forward. Agreed, if this is to persist, more study should be done, and I'd ultimately advocate for a third league to allow those...in-between...to participate, if we must. quote:Basic biology is that male organisms possess the male sex organs and female possess the reproductive organs. Human beings and primates, unlike some fish and amphibians, cannot change their biological sex on their own in any natural way. Men and women grow and develop very differently from one another, and are better suited to different things--women tend to be more creative and smarter, men stronger and faster, etc. These are objective facts based upon years of scientific observation. There is no scientific basis to transsexuality--human beings will never transition naturally in their lives, and it is considered a birth defect to be born as a hermaphrodite or intersex, and one that is usually corrected immediately. quote:In terms of society, yes, we definitely have gender roles for men and women, roles that are constantly being questioned. If you are only seeking society to change its perceptions of gender, then I still ask: why?
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Aug 15, 2016 20:48
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Secular Humanist posted:I think it's more about people not wanting to normalize legitimate, treatable mental illness than not wanting to learn some new words. Obviously, insofar as somebody has suffered I want them to be helped, I think we just disagree on whether hacking off their genitals is helping them. Suicide rate post-op would indicate it's not. I disagree. I am not interested in reforming people who believe they are trans, I just don't want to have to tiptoe around them or anyone for that matter.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:48
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Secular Humanist posted:I think it's more about people not wanting to normalize legitimate, treatable mental illness than not wanting to learn some new words. Obviously, insofar as somebody has suffered I want them to be helped, I think we just disagree on whether hacking off their genitals is helping them. Suicide rate post-op would indicate it's not. edit: There's a glimmer of a point lurking in your post. There's an argument to be made (one that, not being either an expert or a trans person, I won't attempt to defend) that what trans people are really rebelling against is the notion of a gender binary altogether, and that if we as a society were simply more comfortable with decoupling gender and sex, fewer people would be uncomfortable with their sex. It's an interesting idea, but not one that I see a lot of the anti-trans types entertaining. This is because they aren't arguing from a position of reason or principle. Something simply feels wrong to them about a person having a Y chromosome and testicles but wishing to be treated as "female", and they are trying hard to come up with reasons why their personal feelings on the matter ought to be morally binding. Aschlafly fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 20:50
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The funny thing is that this thread is about feminism and the feminists I've known hold the trans thing in contempt for delegitimizing the cause, so it's a wash. We've strayed too far.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:50
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Moridin920 posted:would it fuckin kill you to just be nice to them though regardless of your opinion No. It doesn't. It was a culture shock going from garrison to a university town where these people exist, and then having them in my social circle when I started dating an activist. Having said that, I'm nice to them. I'm just kind of sad that something happened to them in their lives so bad that this is the best way they can cope. That's a heck of a rejection of femininity. I certainly don't believe in the idea they espouse, but it allows them to deal with a lot of trauma. That doesn't make it true however.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:51
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a dog from hell posted:I disagree. I am not interested in reforming people who believe they are trans, I just don't want to have to tiptoe around them or anyone for that matter. that's fine but you gotta realize if you speak your mind 100% of the time without regard for the people around you you're prolly gonna get called a rude rear end in a top hat you can say what you like but don't expect everyone around you to like it Frosted Flake posted:No. It doesn't. It was a culture shock going from garrison to a university town where these people exist, and then having them in my social circle when I started dating an activist. Having said that, I'm nice to them. I'm just kind of sad that something happened to them in their lives so bad that this is the best way they can cope. That's a heck of a rejection of femininity. I think while that applies to some it doesn't necessarily apply to all and unless I can get inside their inner thoughts I can't ever really tell so I'd rather just not pass value judgements. I mean who knows you might be right but you might also be just wrong and they had some chimaerism at an early age. Some trans people are mentally ill, yeah. That doesn't logically mean all trans people are mentally ill. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 20:51
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Aschlafly posted:I think the fact that people are sometimes massively uncomfortable with their birth sex, or with the corresponding gender role, adequately answers this question. This doesn't mean that they should be encouraged to mutilate themselves so as to no longer resemble their birth sex. I think everybody at times questions themselves, and many people have body issues, self-esteem problems, etc. Shouldn't the healthy solution be to encourage them to accept themselves for who they are? Aschlafly posted:Think about this for ten seconds. Suppose your statements about reassignment surgery and the suicide rate are correct. Now suppose we normalize the concept of "genderfluidity", so that a person who is born male can "choose" to be female, and legitimately be treated as such, without having to undergo surgery. Wouldn't that cause fewer people to want to undergo reassignment surgery? Then the concept of female loses all meaning, doesn't it? If somebody can "choose" to be female, that's really just everyone saying that a spade is a shovel, isn't it? They still have a cock, balls, hairy chests, they do not have periods nor can they bear children. What exactly makes them female?
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Aug 15, 2016 20:54
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8-Bit Scholar posted:This doesn't mean that they should be encouraged to mutilate themselves so as to no longer resemble their birth sex. I think everybody at times questions themselves, and many people have body issues, self-esteem problems, etc. Shouldn't the healthy solution be to encourage them to accept themselves for who they are? What would you say to someone with genetic chimaerism or mosaicism? I mean if we're going to get all 'biologically there is XX and XY!' with it (because haha nah, there aren't just XX and XY). 8-Bit Scholar posted:Then the concept of female loses all meaning, doesn't it? If somebody can "choose" to be female, that's really just everyone saying that a spade is a shovel, isn't it? They still have a cock, balls, hairy chests, they do not have periods nor can they bear children. What exactly makes them female? It's almost like gender is a social construct with ultimately arbitrary definitions
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Aug 15, 2016 20:55
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