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8-Bit Scholar posted:Then the concept of female loses all meaning, doesn't it? If somebody can "choose" to be female, that's really just everyone saying that a spade is a shovel, isn't it? They still have a cock, balls, hairy chests, they do not have periods nor can they bear children. What exactly makes them female? A word doesn't "lose all meaning" simply because it's used in a different context. The question of whether someone was born with two X chromosomes, ovaries, etc. can be answered by stating "I was born female" or "biologically, I'm female" or "I'm a cis female". Not that hard.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:58
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really what do you say to someone whose genes are 'XX/XXY?' what does 'be yourself' mean in that context, referring to gender/sex?
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Aug 15, 2016 20:58
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Just an aside, what happened to these people before the past few decades? The Nice Guy thread pointed out that men who weren't able to socialize were either put into arranged marriages or the priesthood in the past so that their crippling social issues didn't really present. Now guys like that get fixated on sexual and interpersonal failure, but before I guess that wasn't really an issue since they would be married no matter what or go without sex entirely. I think I read somewhere that lesbians, the developmentally challenged, or other women that couldn't be married off were often employed as church secretaries or supported their parents as the "spinster aunt". In traditional societies the church or community could usually find a way to take care of "quirky" people. Did transpeople just crossdress? Drop out of society entirely to become sex workers?
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Aug 15, 2016 20:59
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Oh, well that's an aberration, and then the entire argument goes back to one of naive biological essentialism.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:58
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Frosted Flake posted:Just an aside, what happened to these people before the past few decades? There's tons of societies globally in which trans people are accepted and acknowledged as a 3rd gender, the United States and W. Europe is not the end all be all of everything. Another reason the argument of 'but there's only two REAL ones' is kinda dumb really  odds are in Europe people just didn't give a poo poo tbh but i'm not sure about that
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Aug 15, 2016 20:59
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Frosted Flake posted:Just an aside, what happened to these people before the past few decades?
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Aug 15, 2016 21:00
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Aug 15, 2016 21:02
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Aschlafly posted:Oh, well that's an aberration, and then the entire argument goes back to one of naive biological essentialism. so say that genderfluid person they were just making fun of is one of those people? should said person get poo poo for that or can we agree hey maybe we don't know this person's authentic inner self and we should just be cool?
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Aug 15, 2016 21:01
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I yearn for a time when peoples' sexual identity isn't a a defining part of their personality.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:02
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Poetic Justice posted:I yearn for a time when peoples' sexual identity isn't a a defining part of their personality. same tbh this poo poo is all so loving dumb the Culture had it right.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:02
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Moridin920 posted:that's fine but you gotta realize if you speak your mind 100% of the time without regard for the people around you you're prolly gonna get called a rude rear end in a top hat I get called that anyway and I don't give a drat. I am going to erode my credibility here but I repulse people who are aggressively opinionated about the popular arguments. Not nessarily about this stuff. But I argue in my own self-interest and for what I think is the truth. The masses dislike that kind of thing. The only thing I really dislike is the inhumane mechinism that dominates every aspect of our culture. People want to create little problems and in doing so they ignore the big one, which is that society is belittling and harming most people and treating them like tools. The ripple effect from this creates 100 more problems for every 1. If I could reshape it myself than it would all look different, there must be ways of living where everyone receives respect. Not an advocation for communism. Ideology is part of the problem. We need respect for the big picture, instead every group is marginalized except for the few at the top of the pyramid, making GBS threads on everyone.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:02
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Moridin920 posted:It's almost like gender is a social construct with ultimately arbitrary definitions But they aren't arbitrary, men are men and women are women. Everyone fundamentally knows this, a child knows this. Aschlafly posted:This goes back to the point above. You have a disagreement about the meaning of words, not about reality. I'm saying, you can't just call a man a woman and then they become a woman. You want a society where homosexual sex is then classified as heterosexual sex solely because one of the men identifies as a woman. You're not talking about reality, you're literally talking about the meaning of words. If the definition of female is "whomsoever identifies as female" then...I mean, again, there's no point to the term, it no longer accurately describes a biological woman. You can't just brush off biological sex as some sort of antiquated concept, it's precisely why these words exist in the first place.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:03
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a dog from hell posted:We need respect for the big picture, instead every group is marginalized except for the few at the top of the pyramid, making GBS threads on everyone. I don't disagree with that but I think getting pissy about gender and trans stuff and what bathrooms they are allowed to use is exactly what plays into that. My stance is who cares we are literally all meatbags. What defines us is our grey matter, not our outward appearance. What kind of person are you, who cares what you like to gently caress or whatever. Thus when states like NC pass some weirdo anti-trans measures, I disagree with them. 8-Bit Scholar posted:You want a society where homosexual sex is then classified as heterosexual sex solely because one of the men identifies as a woman. what's wrong with that though really? I mean, really? What social pillars are going to come tumbling down if you can't ID who was a man or woman from birth or not instantly and easily? I want a society where people just gently caress and don't care about telling other people how they should be loving or what labels they should use to describe said loving.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:05
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pn0JKmy5-M
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Aug 15, 2016 21:06
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I'm against passing a law either way. Transmen and transwomen should be free to use whatever bathroom they see fit, unless doing so violates the wishes of the bathroom's owner. If some rear end in a top hat wants to expend the effort to gender check everyone who enters his bathrooms that sounds like his problem but it's also his property and we should respect his wishes however misguided they are.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:06
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I'm saying, you can't just call a man a woman and then they become a woman.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:06
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Moridin920 posted:There's tons of societies globally in which trans people are accepted and acknowledged as a 3rd gender, the United States and W. Europe is not the end all be all of everything. Oh sure. Usually as a religious role, as sex workers, or temple prostitutes which I suppose is a combination. That's different than total acceptance in everyday life though. I mean, if Daire the Ploughman's son Finin had what we would clinically describe as Gender Dysmorphia, what would happen to him? With Genderqueer, I'm not convinced that the concept isn't perpetuating itself since people who describe themselves as that usually come from Gender Studies, Womyn's Studies, Social Work or Psych and are already in LGB circles or other kinds of activism.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:06
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8-Bit Scholar posted:But they aren't arbitrary, men are men and women are women. Everyone fundamentally knows this, a child knows this. Also isn't this kinda the whole point of the new pronouns we were just poo poo talking not too long ago, the ones that had no purpose or meaning or anything? we can create new words to describe new concepts in society to facilitate communication!
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Aug 15, 2016 21:07
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Applewhite posted:I'm against passing a law either way. Transmen and transwomen should be free to use whatever bathroom they see fit, unless doing so violates the wishes of the bathroom's owner. If some rear end in a top hat wants to expend the effort to gender check everyone who enters his bathrooms that sounds like his problem but it's also his property and we should respect his wishes however misguided they are. I want to be a professional Gender Checker
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Aug 15, 2016 21:09
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8-Bit Scholar posted:If the definition of female is "whomsoever identifies as female" then...I mean, again, there's no point to the term, it no longer accurately describes a biological woman.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:09
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Moridin920 posted:what's wrong with that though really? Why fight for gay rights, for the right for a man to love another man or vice versa for women, if you're ultimately going to just make everyone a "heterosexual" after all? Doesn't it invalidate THAT identity?
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Aug 15, 2016 21:10
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Frosted Flake posted:Oh sure. Usually as a religious role, as sex workers, or temple prostitutes which I suppose is a combination. That's different than total acceptance in everyday life though. Maybe but I'm simply saying the concept definitely exists outside of the Eurocentric mindset many itt seem to have. It's not like things can't evolve and change anyway. plus idk man I just googled it and that doesn't seem to be accurate anyway quote:References to a third sex can be found throughout the texts of India's three ancient spiritual traditions – Hinduism,[130] Jainism[131] and Buddhism[132] – and it can be inferred that Vedic culture recognised three genders. The Vedas (c. 1500 BC–500 BC) describe individuals as belonging to one of three categories, according to one's nature or prakrti. These are also spelled out in the Kama Sutra (c. 4th century AD) and elsewhere as pums-prakrti (male-nature), stri-prakrti (female-nature), and tritiya-prakrti (third-nature).[133] Texts suggest that third sex individuals were well known in premodern India and included male-bodied or female-bodied[134] people as well as intersexuals, and that they can often be recognised from childhood. seems like it's just a 3rd gender in India to me, in the Kama Sutra and everything
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Aug 15, 2016 21:11
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We should just have hot people bathrooms and goon bathrooms
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Aug 15, 2016 21:12
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Why fight for gay rights, for the right for a man to love another man or vice versa for women, if you're ultimately going to just make everyone a "heterosexual" after all? Doesn't it invalidate THAT identity? Well probably because not all gay men are going to also identify as women? I think this is why some people in the LGB and Feminist movements didn't want Trans piggybacking on, it kind of muddles the water.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:12
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Moridin920 posted:I don't disagree with that but I think getting pissy about gender and trans stuff and what bathrooms they are allowed to use is exactly what plays into that. I don't care but I believe the answer is a return to sanity and common sense. I don't even believe it will happen. It is too late and we are very far down this road with little sign of doubt. Republicans are dumb, liberals are dumb. I liked Applewhite's argument that bathroom segregation is a social convention. I once walked into the women's room by accident like a dumb rear end and I only got funny looks. I have used the women's room when it was a one toilet affair and the fuckhead in the men's room needed to wipe his rear end or stick his dick up the blowdryer for 20 minutes. The answer is to suss it out in context and use common sense. Nobody needs to get up in arms, the police barely need to be involved in anything. The issues have been brought up, school funding being withheld being principal among them. These are the same dirty tricks Republicans use. They are the same. People nowadays need a swift and hard kick in the rear end so we remember what dirt, sky and water mean to us and what the problem is. Humanity should be more easy going. This escapes the scope of this issue but this issue is the same problem that creates every other problem.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:12
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Moridin920 posted:I don't disagree with that but I think getting pissy about gender and trans stuff and what bathrooms they are allowed to use is exactly what plays into that. That's a very enlightened attitude. I agree. You shouldn't care. But you know what, some people, a lot of people do care and even if I think it's not important, I think it's important that they be allowed to care and live their lives in a way that makes them comfortable too.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:12
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Why fight for gay rights, for the right for a man to love another man or vice versa for women, if you're ultimately going to just make everyone a "heterosexual" after all? Doesn't it invalidate THAT identity? I fight for all oppressed peoples. All struggles are ultimately the same struggle against the domination of the elite few that rule. That's how I can be pro-Palestinian in the Israel/Palestine scuffle and also at the same time say Palestinians are stupid for having honor killings be a thing. Also gay people are still loving dudes whatever the societal label is, no one's identity is invalidated. Also you're not accounting for new words that can be created (like those pronouns that were disparaged on the other page)! We don't need to constantly rehash and redefine old ones. Applewhite posted:That's a very enlightened attitude. I agree. You shouldn't care. that's fine but they shouldn't infringe on other people in order to do so. That's the mentality that enables multi-culturalism's excesses imo. It's like yeah, all cultures are important and have the right to exist and whatever but if your culture thinks other cultures should be destroyed then maybe yours sucks actually. It's not racist to say genital mutilation is awful and it isn't bad to say people who want to make others unhappy so they can be more comfortable are dicks. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 21:12
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a dog from hell posted:I don't care but I believe the answer is a return to sanity and common sense. I'm guessing there's a great deal of overlap between "common sense" and "the things that I, poster 'a dog from hell', personally believe to be true".
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Aug 15, 2016 21:16
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Aschlafly posted:I'm guessing there's a great deal of overlap between "common sense" and "the things that I, poster 'a dog from hell', personally believe to be true". I don't have many beliefs. Common sense is finding the simplest answer to a problem. Nobody does this. You are speculating now and I don't know why you bothered posting.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:17
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A child can understand boys and girls but it takes a degree in Womyn's Studies to learn about Genderqueer, so I'm guessing one is more common than the other.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:18
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Aschlafly posted:Even if that's how we define "female", I can still inquire about someone's biological sex, or the state of their genitals, or their karyotype, or their ability to bear children, or whatever, in plain, unambiguous English, without introducing any bizarre new words or concepts. So what's the problem? If you truly think biological sex has no bearing on anything but aesthetics, are you saying a heterosexual man should be sexually attracted to both women and transwomen? Is there no distinction in whom you are sexually attracted to? Do you have no gender preference? If so, do you not think that colors your perspective slightly on this issue?
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Aug 15, 2016 21:21
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The irony here is that the problem is believing your way is better than the other person's way. If you eliminated that fundamentally then there wouldn't be any of these problems.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:23
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Frosted Flake posted:A child can understand boys and girls but it takes a degree in Womyn's Studies to learn about Genderqueer, so I'm guessing one is more common than the other. My point is that "common sense" evolves with time. Women being subservient to their husbands was once "common sense". Today it is not. I'm guessing when most people say "common sense", they're using it as shorthand for "the things I think are common sense". Personally I think it's "common sense" that respecting people's pronoun wishes won't cause the downfall of Western civilization or the degeneration of the English language into grunts and gestures. YMMV.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:22
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Aschlafly posted:That's pretty much a find-replace of an argument creationists use against evolutionary theory. Hell, why bother studying anything, ever? You are muddying the waters. I defined common sense as I meant it, which is finding the easiest solution to a problem. You are misconstruing me to have meant social convention or persuasion by force. Check.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:25
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8-Bit Scholar posted:If you truly think biological sex has no bearing on anything but aesthetics, quote:are you saying a heterosexual man should be sexually attracted to both women and transwomen? quote:Is there no distinction in whom you are sexually attracted to? Do you have no gender preference? If so, do you not think that colors your perspective slightly on this issue?
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Aug 15, 2016 21:27
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a dog from hell posted:You are muddying the waters. I defined common sense as I meant it, which is finding the easiest solution to a problem. You are misconstruing me to have meant social convention or persuasion by force. Check.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:28
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I want that pretty lady to put her big dick in my butt
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Aug 15, 2016 21:28
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Aschlafly posted:I like traditionally feminine characteristics and am not a fan of penises. I also don't mind short hair, muscles, or hairy armpits. Who cares? My only "reservation" about being with a trans woman would be the inability to conceive children and the possibility that PIV sex might not be very satisfying for her. Lol. Strange territory, folks. How to act?
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Aug 15, 2016 21:29
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Frosted Flake posted:A child can understand boys and girls but it takes a degree in Womyn's Studies to learn about Genderqueer, so I'm guessing one is more common than the other. Is that really gonna be your argument dog cuz a child understands 'drop the ball it goes down' but that doesn't mean Newtonian physics is more accurate than quantum physics
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Aug 15, 2016 21:31
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Moridin920 posted:
Well who's infringing on whom here? Why is it "infringing" to want males and females to use the bathrooms 99.9% of the population agrees to use, but it's not infringing to barge into a space explicitly designated to exclude you just because you feel like you belong there and that exclusion isn't fair? This is a ladies' room. It's for ladies. It may very well be that when you look at the big picture and gender theory and social psychology that "lady" is a poorly defined term and that you have as much right to be called a lady as anyone else, but the vast bulk of the population has no idea about any of that and most of them wouldn't believe it if they did. You being there is seen as a violation of their privacy. Moreover you know that being there will upset them, but you deliberately go in anyway because their feelings aren't important. How does the old argument for pronoun respect go? It costs you no effort to be polite so you might as well do the thing that makes the other person happy and comfortable? Well it costs a non-passing transgender no effort to be polite and use the bathroom other people expect them to use.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:33
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