|
FlamingLiberal posted:The problem with Voyager/Enterprise weren't necessarily the ideas, it was absolutely the execution being botched and the writing was poor. It's very frustrating that they took good ideas like having a ship cut off from Starfleet and lost in the Delta Quadrant and messed it up. That and how Enterprise was pretty bland until the 3rd season, and it's not really until the 4th season that we get actual 'founding of the Federation' stuff like we were all promised. Reminder that Neelix was supposed to be 'Star Trek's Han Solo'.
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 01:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 12:50 |
|
|
Gaz-L posted:...You know that trying to just do Voyager and mediocre TNG is what killed Enterprise? Audiences do, in fact, want Star Trek to feel like TV drama that was made in the year it was actually made, and thankfully Fuller seems to at least agree on that front, hence the heavy serialisation Discovery is supposed to have. Yeah, that is what I am saying. Serialization good, dependency on old series bad. Also, hilariously high expectations killed Enterprise. Each season of Enterprise stacks up as equal to or better in quality than any corresponding season of another TNG/DS9/VOY. Unfortunately, UPN bet their failing network on it and that didn't work because UPN was poo poo, not because Enterprise was poo poo. You can't hang an entire network concept on one franchise.* CBS is about to find that out. All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again. Genre TV is alive and well - they are making a dozen superhero series right now. I don't understand why this show isn't on the CW. *Supernatural notwithstanding. Zurui fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Aug 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:02
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:I don't really understand why there is a faction of fans insisting that the new show has to look like 1960's low-budget rubbish, the new Trek movie sets generally work and I would argue are even great for the most part. Star Trek should always look like the future, not a constant that can be measured for the benefit of lovely nerds. The new movies' art design is usually all over the loving place and looks like a mess of poo poo as a result, it doesn't look or feel futuristic or plausible and manages to kind of suck as any sort of homage on top of it all. I mean I liked the last movie and the changes they made but fugly is as fugly does
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:03
|
|
|
Zurui posted:Yeah, that is what I am saying. Serialization good, dependency on old series bad. Those superhero shows almost all air on the network that was built on your exception, though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:05
|
|
|
Enterprise would have ruined the Romulan War anyways because they were sticking to the throwaway line from TOS that somehow the Federation never found out what a Romulan looks like despite having fought an entire war against them. Also because Berman and Braga are creatively bereft. I'm hopeful that this new series is good but it won't last. No one is going to pay to watch fifteen minutes of ads.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:19
|
|
|
Gau posted:Enterprise would have ruined the Romulan War anyways because they were sticking to the throwaway line from TOS that somehow the Federation never found out what a Romulan looks like despite having fought an entire war against them. Also because Berman and Braga are creatively bereft. Eh, it was more than throwaway, it was the entire premise of a full episode. And it could've worked with their super-secretive culture... a war fought in space, Romulan ships that self-destruct rather than let themselves be captured (as they did in TOS), Remans as shock troops... If I were doing Enterprise, I'd have kicked off the war for half a season before we even discovered it was the Romulan War. Have all the fans raging about another war we'd never heard of like they did with Xindi before SURPRISE IT'S ACTUALLY ROMULANS. I expect if Enterprise had actually done it they'd have found out what Romulans look like and covered it up so as not to totally gently caress the nascent Earth-Vulcan alliance. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Aug 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:26
|
|
|
ARCHER: "Five years I've been in space. A war...in space. A war with no battles, no monuments... only casualties."
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:31
|
|
|
An unseen enemy that uses subterfuge and cunning to defeat their opponents that is later revealed to be the Romulans would have been a cool thing to do based on a prior bit of continuity, too bad they pissed away their 9/11 trauma on the boring Xindi collection of utterly forgettable aliens instead.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:32
|
|
|
armoredgorilla posted:I'm not sure how active she is on Twitter but Kate Mulgrew is a National Treasure and if you ever get the opportunity to listen to her at a con or panel you should take it Can confirm. armoredgorilla posted:The only reason they had Bashir in the old uniform was to differentiate him from the Changeling Bashir in the same episode. You shouldn't read more into it than that. It straight up doesn't make sense if he had been captured since before the First Contact uniforms. You'd have to accept that Changeling Bashir performed brain surgery on Sisko or that it willingly let the baby changeling die. This would be a strange action from the same race that surrendered an entire war just to get Odo to come home It's been a while, but I had always interpreted it to mean that he had been replaced that long ago, and did those things to preserve his cover. And also you begin to realize that the crew had put their trust, and bodies, in the hands of the enemy for weeks. I thought it was really creepily effective on that level and honestly made perfect sense if he was that paranoid about maintaining his cover. Zurui posted:Genre TV is alive and well - they are making a dozen superhero series right now. I don't understand why this show isn't on the CW. Honestly that's the perfect place for it and I hope that's where Discovery ends up when All Access bombs, instead of just cancelled, which it probably will be. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:38
|
|
|
Gau posted:Enterprise would have ruined the Romulan War anyways because they were sticking to the throwaway line from TOS that somehow the Federation never found out what a Romulan looks like despite having fought an entire war against them. Also because Berman and Braga are creatively bereft. That is the ONLY thing they stuck to. Enterprise wasn't a nuclear powered vessel, none of the Earth ships were, viewscreens existed and weapons weren't atomic in nature. Besides, seeing the Romulans during the war would have invalidated the defining moment of one of the best TOS episodes ever when they see they look like vulcans with "v"s on their forheads. Romulan war would have been awesome, just have them cripple the Andorian, Vulcan, and Tellerite fleets via subterfuge and have Earth do some heavy lifting as a way to spark negotiations into creating a united federation. You can even make it a single season if you plot it properly. Tighclops posted:An unseen enemy that uses subterfuge and cunning to defeat their opponents that is later revealed to be the Romulans would have been a cool thing to do based on a prior bit of continuity, too bad they pissed away their 9/11 trauma on the boring Xindi collection of utterly forgettable aliens instead. Aquatic and Bug aliens made the Xindi far from forgettable. I mean name another non-tholian bug species in Star Trek. MrJacobs fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Aug 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:56
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:Reminder that Neelix was supposed to be 'Star Trek's Han Solo'. Ahem 
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:56
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:Reminder that Neelix was supposed to be 'Star Trek's Han Solo'. What, the Outrageous Okona wasn't OUTRAGEOUS enough? e: gently caress
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 02:56
|
|
|
He is so OUTRAGEOUS it hurts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:13
|
|
|
I swear to god, the complaint that they had a video screen on Enterprise is the dumbest fansperg in the history of fansperg.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:12
|
|
|
HORATIO HORNBLOWER posted:Who cares about the technology? Not the writers that's for sure. The implications of it all were problematic as hell dating back to The Cage. No reboot or prequel or alternate universe can change the fact that technology in Trek is always exactly as magical as the plot (and the production constraints) requires it to be, no more and no less. The original continuity deserves to be continued because DS9 left it in such a fascinating place. The Romulans and the Federation allied with each other for the first time in their centuries-long history. What happens with that? Does the detente with the Dominion hold? Does Bajor join the Federation? What does the Klingon empire look like under Martok's rule? Will the Cardassians rebuild? What does post-occupation Betazed look like? Will those that lived through the war spend the rest of their lives looking for changelings behind every tree? How does Ferengi society adapt? There are zillions of interesting stories to tell in this universe and there's no inherit reason to let the technobabble get in the way of doing it. There just isn't the will. The Star Trek setting was never that well thought out. I don't give a poo poo about postwar Betazed or Martok's chancellorship, because those space nations were always just window dressing for the episodes we were watching. The Federation-Romulan alliance only existed to propel the back-and-forth drama of the Dominion War that the Federation was losing right up until the end. I'm not terribly fascinated to see how other writers flesh them out, either; I'd rather see someone build new space societies to explore from the ground-up that don't have prior baggage of circumstances contrived for specific episodes. Yeah, you could do a whole series of Tom Clancy In Space, I guess. But hell, there's settings that are better suited to that! Go make an Honor Harrington series!
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:17
|
|
|
That's why I always say they should do a nice, serialised setting with nations and politics and such, but just do it in a new area of space that our hero ship is exploring for the first time and getting tangled up in. Same universe, fresh setting. They can throw in hints about what's going on back home as fanservice.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:22
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:I swear to god, the complaint that they had a video screen on Enterprise is the dumbest fansperg in the history of fansperg. Yes, it totally was. I would have liked to see them still use old plasma guns while the andorians had cool mutli-setting phasers and poo poo instead of "humans invented all star trek tech, only not as fancy." that we got. I'm rewatching ENT on netflix and it really isn't bad at all, I tjust failed becauseof the network it was on and how close it came out compared to Voyager.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:26
|
|
|
MrJacobs posted:Yes, it totally was. I did like how the MACOs in Seasons 3/4 used plasma guns because they were a more mature tech than the Phase Pistols. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Aug 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:45
|
|
|
My current best hope for Discovery is a mission like TMP, or Ringworld or something, centered around exploring some awesome, arbitrarily advanced ancient alien artifact, and really getting up close and in depth with it rather than throwing it out there for a 45-minute episode and then moving on to the next thing. Make it an actual dedicated science vessel and less of a flagship.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:45
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:That's why I always say they should do a nice, serialised setting with nations and politics and such, but just do it in a new area of space that our hero ship is exploring for the first time and getting tangled up in. Same universe, fresh setting. Or relatively close by, but on the other side of a superpower. The Romulans deal with the Klingons on one side and the Federation right next to them on another side. What's the Romulan empire doing with species we don't even have access to on the far side of their space?
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:47
|
|
|
Which was everyones favourite Xindi subspecies? I would chill with the Aquatics.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:59
|
|
|
The aquatics were by far the best because they were the most alien and we've rarely had cool poo poo like that before.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 03:59
|
|
|
Yeah. For as much flack as Voyager got with "humanoid aliens with spoons glued to their heads", ENT at least had some pretty good variance in makeup and frequently had some of the best random alien designs of the whole of Star Trek.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 04:04
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:Television was a lot different in 1987, and anything Star Trek made today, no matter the exact setting, would have modernized storytelling unless it's just absolute poo poo. Generally the issue with Voyager/Enterprise was that they were still cribbing from a 20-year old playbook of storytelling. The idea was it would appeal to women, since the Enterprise audience was just ridiculously male -- just out of whack with the trends underway in television. And it was a totally clueless, stupid idea. But I think the execs were basically correct in thinking that (and especially now) it no longer makes economic sense to produce a show with a mostly-male audience in mind as that demo has fallen off a cliff. You know, I bet Discovery is making a coordinated play to attract more women into the franchise, considering the casting. I think it's going to be interesting, risky and very different from the Star Trek we're used to. And the showrunner is a gay man responsible for Hannibal, which is a huge hit with women. Regressive nerds are going to freak out. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Aug 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 04:07
|
|
|
Wikkheiser posted:I was watching a conversation between Rick Berman and Brannon Braga the other day, and one of the funny stories they had about making Enterprise was when the studio execs wanted them to put boy bands on the show. Like a different boy band would play in the mess hall of the ship every week. Seriously. This gets repeated a lot, but as I recall it was just someone musing "boy, the way these guys are , the next thing they'll want us to do is have a band on every week!". It wasn't actually said.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 04:15
|
|
|
quote:Roger Lay, Jr.: John Wentworth talks a lot about that. He’s got a great story – which you’ll probably see in the Season Two or three documentary – where, at one point, one executive in a meeting comes up to Rick and goes, “I have an idea. You guys have a restaurant on the Enterprise, right? Rick and Brannon are like, “Well, we have a mess hall, kind of like a cafeteria…” He says, “Well, here’s the thing – every week, at the restaurant, the hottest young bands are gonna play. You know, we’re gonna get a different hot, young band every week, they’ll play in the restaurant.” It was also a studio mandate that they had to have 'familiar' elements from the later shows, like the transporter and phasers and stuff. The temporal cold war was part of satisfying their demands to link it to later in the timeline more directly. They also blocked the original plan to serialise more from the start and not have the Enterprise actually launch until halfway through season one. Voyager, Enterprise and the TNG movies didn't have the best teams, but they were also all totally hosed by just having too many masters all tugging on them in different directions. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Aug 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 04:19
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:The aquatics were by far the best because they were the most alien and we've rarely had cool poo poo like that before. The Ent-D was supposed to have a dolphin deck, wasn't it?
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 04:30
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:The Ent-D was supposed to have a dolphin deck, wasn't it? Personally I always imagined that as an Intelligent Cetacean Alien deck rather than actual dolphins. But that's just me fanwanking. Yes, it supposedly had a 'cetacean' deck. The 80s were weird. Maybe they kept them around in case they ever ran into the Whale Probe People.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 04:30
|
|
|
I can't seem to google properly...a few years ago I found a pretty great design for TOS-style Cardassians. Flat makeup, 60s style costume, etc. Can anyone help me find this again?
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 04:42
|
|
|
Why cookie Rocket posted:I can't seem to google properly...a few years ago I found a pretty great design for TOS-style Cardassians. Flat makeup, 60s style costume, etc. Can anyone help me find this again? I dunno, but hopefully they had dope chinbeards and leather masks like notdukat did.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 04:50
|
|
|
MrJacobs posted:Yes, it totally was. I mean just substitute phase pistols for phasers, and polarizing the hull plating for bringing the shields up, and it's the same thing. The show was at its best when it showed how humanity goes from basically being hand-held into the galaxy by the Vulcans to being the only neutral arbiter in disputes arising between the Vulcans, Tellarites, and Andorians which allows them to be trustworthy to all sides when it comes time to create the Federation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 05:23
|
|
|
Why should I listen to you, pink skin?
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 05:48
|
|
|
Had Enterprise not been cancelled, Shran was going to become a regular member of the NX-01 crew. We were robbed of that. So disappointing. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 05:51
|
|
|
Gonz posted:Had Enterprise not been cancelled, Shran was going to become a regular member of the NX-01 crew. Holy gently caress, that would have been amazing! drat pinksins ruined something really awesome from happening.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 05:59
|
|
|
Gonz posted:Had Enterprise not been Blame the corporate masters all you want. In the end it took them 3 and a half seasons to do anything interesting with the show.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 06:01
|
|
|
Oh, there's no denying that. The writers too often took the path of least resistance with regards to interesting storytelling on the show. It could have been awesome. Instead, like you said, most of the time it was aggresively mediocre.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 06:04
|
|
|
Enterprise seasons 3 and 4 are better than any season of Voyager and as good as much of TNG though. The worst thing about ENT is the extent to which certain regular characters were underutilized. Particularly Mayweather. I guess no one wanted to write for him because they never did anything interesting with him at all. In fact this goes to a lesser extent for all the characters other than Trip, Archer, and T'Pol. Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Aug 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 06:40
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Personally I always imagined that as an Intelligent Cetacean Alien deck rather than actual dolphins. But that's just me fanwanking. Yes, it supposedly had a 'cetacean' deck. The cetacean thing was planned so they could include trained dolphins on the show, the idea was dreamed up back when the USA was going through a Whale and Dolphin craze, so its a bit like the idea to have bands playing on Enterprise. Though they did come up with a justification for this idea was that dolphins are used to moving like a ship in space so this would be important somehow. Of course the same is true of birds and bees, and bees would help out with that garden Keiko pottered around in and make delicious real honey. I think you can still see the cetacean deck on some of the Enterprise blueprints. And in Yesterday's Enterprise Picard wants a report from them just before he goes into battle with the Klingons.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 06:42
|
|
|
You just know that Bryan Fuller is going to find some excuse to include Decon gel scenes in the new show. Explicit Decon gel scenes. Like the coed shower in Starship Troopers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 06:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 12:50 |
|
|
Baka-nin posted:The cetacean thing was planned so they could include trained dolphins on the show, the idea was dreamed up back when the USA was going through a Whale and Dolphin craze, so its a bit like the idea to have bands playing on Enterprise. Though they did come up with a justification for this idea was that dolphins are used to moving like a ship in space so this would be important somehow. Of course the same is true of birds and bees, and bees would help out with that garden Keiko pottered around in and make delicious real honey.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2016 06:47
|
|
