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SolidSnakesBandana posted:They explained it that way but thats not how it comes across when you watch it. It's also right around the time they started calling him Green Arrow and hamfisted a way into calling it Star City, both steps that felt like writer corrections. That's exactly how it came across when I watched it. This stuff happens at the same time because it's part of his transformation into the true comic book superhero. And it's exactly the sort of mundane nuts and bolts stuff you'd expect a writer to churn through when they stretch Batman Begins into a couple dozen episodes.
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Aug 20, 2016 02:55
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Arrow suffered from several things, one of which being DC giving and taking away characters on a whim causing them to loose story lines, another being typical budget leak as shows go longer and there's less money for everything, and also that it's on CW and needs to include 45% soap opera to appeal to the networks demographic. Arrow s1 and s2 are great. It needs to just end.
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Aug 20, 2016 03:30
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Vin Diesel just confirmed in an online Q&A that the Guardians will appear with Avengers in Infinity War and that they have a working title for 4th Avengers movie.
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Aug 20, 2016 03:48
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Speaking of superhero TV, Runaways is happening. But you need Hulu to watch it. http://marvel.com/news/tv/26608/marvels_runaways_headed_to_hulu
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Aug 20, 2016 03:50
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:The problem with that though is that all heroes in Marvel and DC use violence as their weapon. It seems weird to harp on Batman specifically. Batman's violence is in service of a compulsion to personally punish criminals. He "hunts" people in a monster costume.
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Aug 20, 2016 04:11
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See I'd be fine if the only DC heroes who don't kill are Batman and Superman, because they both have good logical reasons for those rules. Batman was traumatised by the death of his parents and so whilst he will use violence to punish criminals in his weird revenge bat fantasy but he will not sink to their level and kill, doesn't mean he won't let them die and if you must it doesn't mean he is perfect. He just does everything in his power to ensure a non-lethal take-down, after all breaking all 4 limbs is "non-lethal". As far as things about Batman's mentality go I really like the ending for Knight; where his madness, represented by the Joker and pumped up by a brain disease, kills his intelligence (Riddler), his sense of Justice (Two-Face) and the small child who has too much money but is afraid of the world (Penguin). It showcases what I think is an important part of Batman's villains, they're all mirrors to some part of him. The Joker is all about on bad day changing a person, or at least I like that interpretation of him, because Batman was changed by one bad day. Two-face is multiple personalities and justice, which Batman actually self cultivates so that his Bruce Wayne persona is completely separate from the crime fighter. Riddler is a man apart in his intelligence but obsesses over a specific subject, which is what Batman does with crime fighting. So on and so forth. It's why I'd really like to see Prometheus get a movie, as his thing is he's reverse Batman, his parents were criminals gunned down by cops in his view so he trains his entire life to kill all the cops in Gotham. Superman meanwhile doesn't kill because it would be so easy, he has all this power so a big thing should be holding it back. Actively avoiding killing until there is literally no other options. This is why I actually like the ending of Man of Steel to an extent, it creates a situation where Superman does indeed have to kill, and that's okay. Meanwhile Green Arrow not killing is silly poo poo, and honestly him killing criminals makes a very obvious difference between him and Batman and gives conflict. Wonder Woman is an Amazon and thus probably should not be too bothered about killing, because to her it's actually a war on crime/supernatural monsters. Green Lantern is technically a space cop, so he probably has rules he has to follow which involve stuff about when it is and isn't okay to kill. So on and so forth. Flash is also a non-killer, but that isn't about himself and more about his powers. He has the speed to save everyone, and works very well as the actual truly good hero, especially because he can defeat criminals with no violence at all. He goes out of his way to help people because he's a good person. I'd probably be more upset about a Flash who kills than a Batman who kills, because I understand that Batman is very close to the Punisher anyway and there are things that could push him over that edge. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 05:13
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Freakazoid_ posted:Seeing only the image and not the tweet, I thought maybe we were getting a Ronin Warriors live action show. Would watch your Ronin Warriors TV show! The power is in the armor. 
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Aug 20, 2016 05:46
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Jerk McJerkface posted:Arrow suffered from several things, one of which being DC giving and taking away characters on a whim causing them to loose story lines Not really though? They took away Slade after his story was finished, took away Deadshot who was a side character who appears once or twice a season and never part of the main plot, and took away Ted Kord months before any scene with him had actually been written.
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Aug 20, 2016 06:20
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Lord_Magmar posted:Flash is also a non-killer, but that isn't about himself and more about his powers. He has the speed to save everyone, and works very well as the actual truly good hero, especially because he can defeat criminals with no violence at all. He goes out of his way to help people because he's a good person. I'd probably be more upset about a Flash who kills than a Batman who kills, because I understand that Batman is very close to the Punisher anyway and there are things that could push him over that edge. Oh man you don't wanna watch the new Flash TV show then.
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Aug 20, 2016 06:21
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Vin Diesel just confirmed in an online Q&A that the Guardians will appear with Avengers in Infinity War and that they have a working title for 4th Avengers movie. At last, Chris^3 will appear on the big screen
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Aug 20, 2016 08:18
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HIJK posted:At last, Chris^3 will appear on the big screen Chrismas will come early that year.
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Aug 20, 2016 11:09
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greatn posted:Not really though? They took away Slade after his story was finished, took away Deadshot who was a side character who appears once or twice a season and never part of the main plot, and took away Ted Kord months before any scene with him had actually been written. They took away Waller, katana, the tiger claw guy, and they had a story arc written with Harley that they had to scrap. Planning stories is done well in advance so even with out having scenes filmed loosing a written storyline is bad for the show. Also ollie getting stabbed by Ras and then being lol nope OK. Five minutes later was garbage. Also killing Ras was garbage too.
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Aug 20, 2016 12:36
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I don't understand why so many people here condone murder. And that I'm considered the crazy one for not condoning murder. Murder is wrong. Giving Batman/Superman/Green Arrow a free pass to kill whoever they want is lunacy. What happens when they kill someone not-so-bad? Imagine the news headline tomorrow: MASKED VIGILANTE KILLS GANG OF SIX. You're totally cool with that?
SolidSnakesBandana fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 14:05
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I don't understand why so many people here condone murder. Can you please quote some posts that are wholeheartedly condoning murder
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Aug 20, 2016 14:09
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I don't understand why so many people here condone murder. And that I'm considered the crazy one for not condoning murder. Murder is wrong. Giving Batman/Superman/Green Arrow a free pass to kill whoever they want is lunacy. What happens when they kill someone not-so-bad? The portrayal of extreme, condoned violence without consequence is what I take issue with.
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Aug 20, 2016 14:09
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Feel free to use this post to brutally own me if u do have some quotes that back it up SolidSnakesBandana but it's just like...do you genuinely believe that there are multiple people in this thread who "condone murder"/ the idea of "a free pass to kill whoever they want"? People who think that you are "the crazy one for not condoning murder". Like come on man maybe some people are posting stuff you disagree with but do you think there are a lot of people who's posts in this thread are actually in support of the position you're arguing? I'm asking you sincerely, do you believe that the description you are using is an accurate representation of others' arguments?
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Aug 20, 2016 14:21
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I don't understand why so many people here condone murder. And that I'm considered the crazy one for not condoning murder. Murder is wrong. Giving Batman/Superman/Green Arrow a free pass to kill whoever they want is lunacy. What happens when they kill someone not-so-bad? Imagine the news headline tomorrow: MASKED VIGILANTE KILLS GANG OF SIX. You're totally cool with that? [puts hand on your shoulder solemnly] batman isn't a real person son
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Aug 20, 2016 14:28
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I don't understand why so many people here condone murder. And that I'm considered the crazy one for not condoning murder. Murder is wrong. Giving Batman/Superman/Green Arrow a free pass to kill whoever they want is lunacy. What happens when they kill someone not-so-bad? Imagine the news headline tomorrow: MASKED VIGILANTE KILLS GANG OF SIX. You're totally cool with that? Murder is a specific kind of homicide, so unless you don't know what it means, you're just being inflammatory. You're assuming a very simplistic view of taking a person's life, which trivializes it. Many comic books depict the "No killing" rule while crime fighting as the perpetual morally correct decision. The problem is that it has a tenuous grip on reality based on guilt free violence. The fact is that if a being, Super or not, chooses to fight well-armed people, there will be deaths. This is a foundation that crime fighters must knowingly accept or the whole thing falls apart. Declaring that it's not what you go to comic book movies for is fine, but don't preen that your position is the moral high ground when it really is an escapist power fantasy. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 15:11
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Imagine the news headline tomorrow: MASKED VIGILANTE KILLS GANG OF SIX. You're totally cool with that? That would be awful. This, on the other hand, would be pretty sweet: quote:MASKED VIGILANTE KILLS GANG OF SIX THEN STRIKES AN AWESOME POSE AND MAKES A COOL QUIP 
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Aug 20, 2016 16:14
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I don't understand why so many people here condone murder. And that I'm considered the crazy one for not condoning murder. Murder is wrong. Giving Batman/Superman/Green Arrow a free pass to kill whoever they want is lunacy. What happens when they kill someone not-so-bad? Imagine the news headline tomorrow: MASKED VIGILANTE KILLS GANG OF SIX. You're totally cool with that? For one, it's a little odd that superheroes should not be allowed to kill when most action heroes do it all the time. We don't complain when Luke Skywalker kills. Somehow the heroes in Star Wars only ever kill bad guys. In the real world, wars, especially civil wars, are very ugly affairs but the Star Wars stories don't go there. You will never see the Rebels burning people's houses as punishment for providing aid to the Empire - that's something only the Empire does. But during the American Revolution (which you Americans romanticize endlessly), people who supported the British crown faced such intimidation. Superhero stories could go down the Star Wars route, ie fully accept that they are romantic fantasy. But if they go all "gritty" without accepting all the harsh realities of the real world, that annoys me. Superheroes are under no moral obligation to kill. They do enough already just by capturing criminals; nobody has the right to insist they be executioners too. But sometimes killing would be the smart thing to do, if not the "right" thing to do. Superheroes operate outside the law and thus are in a similar position to criminal gangs such as the Mafia. They can't rely on the police and the law to protect themselves. The Mafia kills people a lot because, unlike the government, it does not have the resources and overwhelming strength to hand out more merciful punishments like prison or community service. A dead villain is a villain the heroes need never worry about again. Remember Identity Crisis from 12 years ago? Dr Light rapes Sue Dibny, and the League has to figure out what to do with him. Killing him would actually be the smartest thing to do. Just toss him out an airlock and be done with him forever. They can't exactly take him to prison. Even if they could find a court that has jurisdiction over their clandestine space station, cooperating with investigators would mean divulging lots of sensitive information such as secret identities and the layout of their station. So they go with this clumsy solution of wiping Dr Light's memories and then brain-damaging him to the point that he is mostly harmless. And they have to mindwipe Batman too, because as clever as Batman is, he isn't the most pragmatic of people. The best versions of Batman in my book are the 60s Adam West show and the 90s Bruce Timm cartoon. They're great because they're just classic Batman. They don't try to be edgy, they're not two-faced or hypocritical.
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Aug 20, 2016 16:29
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Kurzon posted:This is a good question. The best batmans for most people are the versions they grew up with as a child. The one they've spent the most time with. I LOVE BTAS Batman, but I fuckin' love the idea of a Millar-ish BvS Batman as well. Even if Mark Millar himself is mostly loving nuts. A lot of people don't invest thought into why they like one particular version, especially if they're just 'used' to it, so they react vitriolically when their constants are tested. To me, the idea that the government allows superheroes but doesn't regulate them to death is the most 'comic' idea within the superhero universe. Hyperion's backstory up until he learns as an adult how the government manipulated him growing up is probably one of the more realistic things in the comic book universe.
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Aug 20, 2016 16:57
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Kurzon posted:Remember Identity Crisis from 12 years ago? Dr Light rapes Sue Dibny, and the League has to figure out what to do with him. Killing him would actually be the smartest thing to do. Just toss him out an airlock and be done with him forever. They can't exactly take him to prison. Even if they could find a court that has jurisdiction over their clandestine space station, cooperating with investigators would mean divulging lots of sensitive information such as secret identities and the layout of their station. So they go with this clumsy solution of wiping Dr Light's memories and then brain-damaging him to the point that he is mostly harmless. And they have to mindwipe Batman too, because as clever as Batman is, he isn't the most pragmatic of people. Writers can manufacture pretty much any fictional situation to confront the characters with moral/ethical quandaries where specific actions that would be problematic in other situations may be rationalised/validated and it's a standard practice in genre fiction to narrow the parameters so that the hero's abilities and attitudes just happen to be perfectly suited to solving the situation that arise. The police can't solve the case so a vigilante is needed, the bad guy is irredeemably evil and murderous so killing him is not only justified but necessary, etc etc.. If they're just going through the motions and pumping out a monthly company product they'll often stick to those parameters (it's pretty much standard operating procedure in medium where the characters and setting are owned by a corporation and the artists are given a little rule book about what they are and aren't allowed to do with the characters when they're hired and everything has to be approved by an editorial team at every step) but if they want to play with the genre they might tweak it so that the hero has to make a difficult decision or live with some difficult consequences. The Identity Crisis plot reminds me of the lovely Dominic Deegan webcomic which had a storyline where one character had to rape another character to save her from being killed because **reasons**. It's maybe an interesting philosophical question in some way ("Could you commit an atrocity to avoid an arguably worse crime?") but on the other hand the specific series really doesn't lend itself to tackle questions like that and the author really didn't need to wander into that territory just for some terrible sophomoric drama.
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Aug 20, 2016 16:58
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Drifter posted:The best batmans for most people are the versions they grew up with as a child. The one they've spent the most time with. I LOVE BTAS Batman, but I fuckin' love the idea of a Millar-ish BvS Batman as well. Even if Mark Millar himself is mostly loving nuts. Tom the Dancing Bug had a great strip on this: 
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Aug 20, 2016 17:07
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Writers can manufacture pretty much any fictional situation to confront the characters with moral/ethical quandaries where specific actions that would be problematic in other situations may be rationalised/validated and it's a standard practice in genre fiction to narrow the parameters so that the hero's abilities and attitudes just happen to be perfectly suited to solving the situation that arise. The police can't solve the case so a vigilante is needed, the bad guy is irredeemably evil and murderous so killing him is not only justified but necessary, etc etc.. If they're just going through the motions and pumping out a monthly company product they'll often stick to those parameters (it's pretty much standard operating procedure in medium where the characters and setting are owned by a corporation and the artists are given a little rule book about what they are and aren't allowed to do with the characters when they're hired and everything has to be approved by an editorial team at every step) but if they want to play with the genre they might tweak it so that the hero has to make a difficult decision or live with some difficult consequences. Kurzon fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Aug 20, 2016 |
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Aug 20, 2016 18:40
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You might be the first person in the universe to describe Identity Crisis as subtle.
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Aug 20, 2016 18:44
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Identity Crisis was in bad taste but it's one of the only comic books I've enjoyed and I've tried getting into comics many many times without success.
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Aug 20, 2016 18:48
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Identity Crisis is utter total garbage.
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Aug 20, 2016 18:58
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Superhero Comic Books are garbage, yes.
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Aug 20, 2016 19:10
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Trying to get into comics by reading superhero comics is exactly the wrong way to go about it unless it's, like, Tank Girl, or somethin.' Check out Asterios Polyp sometime, now there's a great possible film adaptation. Ditto David Small's Stitches and Joe Sacco's Safe Area Goražde. Maybe even Bodwen and Briggs' Dreamland.
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Aug 20, 2016 19:13
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K. Waste posted:Trying to get into comics by reading superhero comics is exactly the wrong way to go about it unless it's, like, Tank Girl, or somethin.' Oblivion's non-existent graphic novel seems like it'd be a cool thing to see too. The art book at least was very good.
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Aug 20, 2016 19:18
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I think Batman is a far more interesting, and better character when he is not killing. He certainly seems to be the most interesting that way, the version in BvS was poorly thought out, one-dimensional and bad, though incredibly effective on a surface textural level (best Bat voice, best Bat suit, best Bat fighting, Affleck's performance is excellent) which I think is the main reason people are going great lengths to convince others (but really themselves) that he's really great. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Batman killing is the reason why BvS Batman is bad, just that it is one of many symptoms of the disease of bad characterization. Burton's Batman kills, but remains a more interesting character in many ways. Batman killing is stupid because: A: All his weaponry seems pitched at taking down people non lethally The dude uses his fists, ropes, batarangs and a bunch of gadgets to take down criminals, BvS Batman uses these as well. In the admittedly excellently constructed and shot fight scene to rescue Martha late in the film Batman uses all this non-lethal weaponry to kill a bunch of people. It's like using a tennis racket to play Basketball, it's the wrong tools for the job. He starts this scene by mowing people down with massive guns on his Bat Plane, so he clearly has no problem with using guns, so why not take a machine gun in there and take them all out, he even uses a machine gun of an enemy at one point in the scene. When early Bob Kane/Bill Finger Batman killed, he carried a gun. B: A murder Batman shouldn't have any recurring enemies Why the gently caress is the Joker still alive if Batman is happy to kill his enemies? Yeah, he kill a bunch of random thugs, but as soon as someone super dangerous comes along, whoop, he takes them to jail. Burton's Batman straight up murdered his Joker which is one reason why that Batman is a better, more coherent character than the one is BvS. As someone else mentioned, part of the compelling back and forth between Batman and The Joker is that Batman is unwilling to kill him, you take way the no kill rule you take away the theme of two perfectly pitched adversaries, one symbolic of control and ending the randomness of violence, the other a celebration of that randomness. C: A no killing Batman is more interesting TAS Batman spent a lot of time talking down his enemies as well as punching them, there was even one episode, "It's Never Too Late" where Batman convinces a crime lord to turn himself in. There's complexity and interest to be had with a figure that uses intimidation and violence yet also has a strong altruistic, noble and compassionate side. The Snyder Batman, by contrast, is a figure that uses intimidation and violence because he's violent, and that's about it. He's boring. He's one of many violent revenge characters. Also, before someone says it, yes I know there's being plenty of precedent for Batman killing before in comics, and films. Doesn't matter. Just because it's happened before doesn't mean I have to like and support it, if Batman sold War Bonds to the audience in BvS I wouldn't like it either, even if someone went "It happened in the comics". BvS Batman is depicted as almost catastrophically stupid and volatile. That Martha moment is dumb because rather than be the cherry on top or the straw that breaks the camels's back on top of a series of complex motivations, and doubts about his mission to kill Superman, it is instead the sole reason he has a change of heart. Which means his mind might change back for as slight a reason.
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Aug 20, 2016 19:19
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Yaws posted:Identity Crisis was in bad taste but it's one of the only comic books I've enjoyed and I've tried getting into comics many many times without success. Have you tried reading.. good comics? Editor's note: most comics are not good. Identity Crisis is really not good. It's bad, even. Really bad.
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Aug 20, 2016 19:22
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quote:There's complexity and interest to be had with a figure that uses intimidation and violence yet also has a strong altruistic, noble and compassionate side. Characterization. Your argument for complexity is that it's fine if he kills, if he also has a softer side.
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Aug 20, 2016 19:41
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Equilibrium posted:Have you tried reading.. good comics? It's something I'll just have to live with.
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Aug 20, 2016 19:42
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Characterization. Your argument for complexity is that it's fine if he kills, if he also has a softer side. No. That's not what I said at all.
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Aug 20, 2016 19:45
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Yaws posted:I've tried to read a lot of Superhero Comics and they've never really clicked with me, except for IC.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:00
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Karloff posted:I think Batman is a far more interesting, and better character when he is not killing. He certainly seems to be the most interesting that way, the version in BvS was poorly thought out, one-dimensional and bad, though incredibly effective on a surface textural level (best Bat voice, best Bat suit, best Bat fighting, Affleck's performance is excellent) which I think is the main reason people are going great lengths to convince others (but really themselves) that he's really great.  Source your quotes. Haha
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Aug 20, 2016 20:06
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Did you ever consider just maybe Batman being driven off the deep end and deciding to take lives Might possibly be a new development for him? Maybe something bad happened that turned a good man cruel? Could be that a man who is lost and lost his faith in humanity and the ability of men to be good comes to realize that yes- Men are still good? Nah that doesn't sound right must be those losers convincing themselves those things in the movie aren't in the movie when they're in the movie.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:15
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Karloff posted:BvS Batman is depicted as almost catastrophically stupid and volatile. That Martha moment is dumb because rather than be the cherry on top or the straw that breaks the camels's back on top of a series of complex motivations, and doubts about his mission to kill Superman, it is instead the sole reason he has a change of heart. Which means his mind might change back for as slight a reason. Have you ever had a serious change of heart about something in real life? It sneaks up on you. "Martha" isn't what changes his mind by itself, it's exactly the "last straw" you're talking about.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:15
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Kurzon posted:I liked Identity Crisis. Perhaps some people hate it because it went places they would rather comics don't go. Comics have gone those places before, but not in such a tasteless and badly written way.
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Aug 20, 2016 20:15
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