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A. Beaverhausen posted:About that, *late Skin Games spoilers* I really hated how Lasch was demoted to just a villian. With how we last saw her before Skin Games we had a Denarian that actually did something really cool. I understand it was because she was in Harry's head for so long, I just wish Jim had done something else with her. Well... Lash and Lasciel were very different entities by the end. Lash had been changed and is dead, having her sacrifice rendered meaningless would undermine a huge theme of the books. Plus we saw the result of her legacy in her daughter. Lasciel was always a villain and is behaving exactly how I would expect her to considering Harry ultimately rid himself of her shadow. She didn't get the character development, her dead twin did.
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Aug 21, 2016 17:53
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Zore posted:Well... Lash and Lasciel were very different entities by the end. Lash had been changed and is dead, having her sacrifice rendered meaningless would undermine a huge theme of the books. Plus we saw the result of her legacy in her daughter. Good point. I'm happy I'm doing another series read through, I had forgotten about her daughter
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Aug 21, 2016 18:01
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Mr Scumbag posted:Yeah, I'm not asking for no rear end kickings, just less. And more examples of how powerful he is. I'd love to see him go up against some things that he previously had his rear end handed to him by and completely smoke them. I think readers should be reminded of the changes he's undergone in ways other than paragraphs of monologue. There are a couple examples that come to mind. Cold Days opens with him straight up flash-freezing, then shattering a faerie noble just to make a point. That probably would have been out of his reach a few books previous. White Night shows off the ways in which he's gotten better at making his magical gear, and establishes Harry getting better at finer magic. He also creates a pretty nifty escape route in the same book. The start of Changes also comes to mind. For the longest time, Harry dreads the thought of fighting a single vampire. In the opening chapters, he comes up against a squad of Red Court mooks at close range. They realize he's caught them, panic, and he wipes them out. As for the changes to Harry himself, eh. I feel there's a shift. For lack of a better term, Harry "grows up". The way he perceives Morgan and Merlin, for instance. There's a lot less "no wizard dads, you shut the gently caress up" and more rational thought about authority. In Proven Guilty, he makes a political play against Merlin for Molly's life, and he almost succeeds. Even Morgan was listening to him and expressing doubt. Ten years ago he probably would have attempted something less subtle, screaming about The Man all the while. quote:Also, I feel like the series is slowly falling into the problem a lot of fiction does as it gains more and more volumes and lore: There's less levity and examples of everyday life to remind you of exactly WHAT the protagonists are fighting for. A lot of books and TV shows do that. Walking Dead is a great example. Pretty soon everything is maximum stakes and doom and gloom and you just stop caring cause you forget what "normal" is like. Changes is probably one of the better books because of this. It gives Harry some very personal stakes, and it shows in the tone. I liked that. Unfortunately, Changes is followed by Ghost Story and Skin Game. Both of those books ended up feeling like they were about other people. Harry is mostly ineffectual and sidelined throughout Ghost Story. It's about Harry's friends, the world, Chicago, what Harry's done- but not Harry himself. I got the feeling from Ghost Story that Jim had an idea he loved, and he couldn't let it go. In Skin Game, Harry's teammates and allies kind of steal the spotlight from him. Cold Days is better than either of them.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:21
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The post Changes books have all been noticeable steps down in quality compared to the pre-Changes books. And while Cold Days is probably the best of the three, it's still full of cringeworthy bullshit that drags the book down. I am... not a fan of Skin Game. Mr Scumbag posted:
The Daniel Faust series by Craig Schaefer is also good, although the tone is considerably darker. A mercenary sorcerer discovers that the killer he is hunting is tied to a secretive cabal. His allies are a band of thugs and scoundrels, as well as an agent of a Prince of Hell. His enemies? They're even worse. There's also a spinoff featuring Harmony Black, an FBI agent and witch who is introduced in the second Faust book.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:18
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:There are a couple examples that come to mind. Cold Days opens with him straight up flash-freezing, then shattering a faerie noble just to make a point. That probably would have been out of his reach a few books previous. I kind of enjoyed Ghost Story for that reason. Showing the vacuum that was created with Harry's absence was cool, and I love a Molly story.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:39
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Tim Powers is probably the best urban fantasy writer who we don't talk about in this thread. Mostly because he doesn't do many long-running series; all his books are one-offs, or loose trilogies at most. If you're going to bring up Tim Powers and not mention The Anubis Gates then shame on you, that book is a masterpiece.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:46
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Mars4523 posted:The Pax Arcana series by Elliott James is a good series. The protagonist isn't a fedora tipping type like Harry is, and the supporting cast is allowed to do considerably more. The protagonist is a fantasy Jack Reacher rather than wizard detective, but despite being a special forces equivalent badass he's still relatively underpowered relative to the setting, which means that he doesn't stomp over every threat or obstacle. Greg Eekhout's Daniel Blackland series starting with California Bones is a really cool fantasy Los Angeles kinda heist novel. Everything about the book was pretty interesting.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:01
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420 Gank Mid posted:If you're going to bring up Tim Powers and not mention The Anubis Gates then shame on you, that book is a masterpiece.
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Aug 21, 2016 22:00
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anilEhilated posted:Really? I read it and was frankly unimpressed, compared to his more historical stuff it just feels shallow and unrefined. I have a feeling that Powers is one of those authors where the list of his "good" and "bad" books varies a lot depending on who the reader is. I really liked On Stranger Tides for example. Everyone agrees Declare is amazing though.
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Aug 21, 2016 22:49
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Everyone agrees Declare is amazing though. Nope, I gave up half way through. Really liked The Anubis Gates and The Drawing of the Dark, though.
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Aug 21, 2016 23:35
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A. Beaverhausen posted:I kind of enjoyed Ghost Story for that reason. Showing the vacuum that was created with Harry's absence was cool, and I love a Molly story. The problem with Ghost Story is that all the stuff it hinted at having happened would have been a lot more interesting to see from the perspective of the characters going through it. So you get to hear about all this cool stuff that happened to your favorite characters while you weren't looking, which sucks, during a book where Harry doesn't do a great deal. It doesn't really read like the usual Dresden book, either, which just makes it kind of awkward and ho-hum. It wasn't like I hated it, I was just frustrated that it wasn't done better.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:49
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I wonder if Lash might make a minor cameo in some way, similar to Harry's mom. After all, (Skin Game) the new entity that is her and Harry's daughter is a spirit of intellect. Lash might have left a message or memory with her to pass along under the right circumstances, or if he knows the right way to ask. She might have access to a shitload of Lasciel's knowledge, depending on what got left behind other than the skill to play guitar.
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Aug 22, 2016 06:25
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Mars4523 posted:The Daniel Faust series by Craig Schaefer is also good, although the tone is considerably darker. A mercenary sorcerer discovers that the killer he is hunting is tied to a secretive cabal. His allies are a band of thugs and scoundrels, as well as an agent of a Prince of Hell. His enemies? They're even worse. Thanks for these suggestions. I'll look into them soon.
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Aug 22, 2016 07:58
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I'm on the second book in the Craft series and I'm wondering: Do any of the characters from previous books make appearances, or is this basically an anthology of stories that just take place in a universe where Craft-work is a thing? Because I enjoyed the first book a great deal and this "guy with father issues investigating a poisoned well" story isn't really working for me.
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Aug 22, 2016 12:12
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Wade Wilson posted:I'm on the second book in the Craft series and I'm wondering: Do any of the characters from previous books make appearances, or is this basically an anthology of stories that just take place in a universe where Craft-work is a thing? Yeah, everything starts to mix together a bit later on, and you'll definitely see the return of previous favorites. The first two books are mostly isolated from each other and introduce different characters and settings, but after that, everything reconnects. #5, for example, is sort of a direct continuation of #1.
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Aug 22, 2016 12:16
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Wade Wilson posted:I'm on the second book in the Craft series and I'm wondering: Do any of the characters from previous books make appearances, or is this basically an anthology of stories that just take place in a universe where Craft-work is a thing? How far are you into it, as that is a massive understatement of the whole plot of the book.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:09
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Geokinesis posted:How far are you into it, as that is a massive understatement of the whole plot of the book. I just got to the part where the protagonist beat the cliff runner by cheating, told Dad to gently caress off out of his room when he got home, spent the night sleeping on the couch while the cliff runner slept in his bed, and basically got "brought in for questioning" by the magic cops the next morning.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:58
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Mars4523 posted:The Pax Arcana series by Elliott James is a good series. The protagonist isn't a fedora tipping type like Harry is, and the supporting cast is allowed to do considerably more. The protagonist is a fantasy Jack Reacher rather than wizard detective, but despite being a special forces equivalent badass he's still relatively underpowered relative to the setting, which means that he doesn't stomp over every threat or obstacle. thought Pax Arcana was about the Roman Legion Pokemon or whatever, but on Goodreads it says the main character is Prince Charming and there's Romance/Love Triangles throughout????? What's the Roman Legion Pokemon series, and is it better than the adventures of Special Forces/Detective Prince Charming?
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Aug 23, 2016 05:15
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Drifter posted:thought Pax Arcana was about the Roman Legion Pokemon or whatever, but on Goodreads it says the main character is Prince Charming and there's Romance/Love Triangles throughout????? That's the Furies of Calderon and the earlier ones are kinda good and the later ones are bad
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Aug 23, 2016 05:17
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Drifter posted:is it better than the adventures of Special Forces/Detective Prince Charming? No, not at all. The Roman Pokemon books are decent when they're about the one kid in the world who doesn't have any Pokemon and how he manages in a world where everybody has a Pokemon and he's horrifyingly underpowered. And they're pretty okay when they're about this. Then sometime in Book 4 he learns that not only does he actually have Pokemon of his own, he has the most outrageously crazy powerful Pokemon in the world. And then everything goes to poo poo because now it's just about him being overpowered and never losing.
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Aug 23, 2016 05:51
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Drifter posted:thought Pax Arcana was about the Roman Legion Pokemon or whatever, but on Goodreads it says the main character is Prince Charming and there's Romance/Love Triangles throughout????? The Roman Legion Pokemon series is the Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher, and it is not better than the adventures of Sir Charming (not a prince). The first Codex Alera book is bad even by loosened standards of generic "Farmboy becomes Hero" fantasy books. Books 2 through 4 are alright (I found book 3 to be downright good). Problem is that by book 4 the lead character (whose charm is that he's a Muggle in a world of Wizards who uses dirty tricks and clever thinking to win his battles) has become the best Super Saiyan of them all. The final climactic battle in book 6 is basically a fight torn out of some anime series, and as such is utter nonsense in a setting that tried to be reasonably grounded with its Pokemon-based superpowers..
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Aug 23, 2016 06:45
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I'm on the second Mindspace book now, and while I certainly acknowledge the criticisms made earlier in the thread, I'm still enjoying it a lot. I have the other two (but not the novellas) and when I've finished them, I have something else lined up to read next. Anno Dracula. I have heard good things.
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Aug 23, 2016 14:11
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Mars4523 posted:... Khizan posted:... I dunno who pissed in your cereal, guys, but I liked them quite well. The first three I found genuinely good. Book four was pretty-good. The last two are, admittedly, worse than the first four by a lot, but still didn't stray fully into "bad", IMO. The series was at its best in the courtly politics and espionage plots. The horrible alien entities who became the final enemy was a real shame. Khizan posted:Then sometime in Book 4 ... You should really have spoilered this, dude. It's one of the biggest reveals in the series. I know they've been out a while, but we're talking to someone who hasn't read it and might be interested. Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 17:22
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I generally agree with the "first half of the series is better than the last half" with one exception: book 2 blows. It's so loving boring for about 2/3rds of its runtime. Alera goes, in my opinion: 3 >>>>> 1 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 2 Book 3 is the best book in the series by a country mile. Mostly because of the Canim. The Canim own.
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Aug 23, 2016 17:28
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Wheat Loaf posted:Anno Dracula. I have heard good things. It's funny, if you described the premise of Anno Dracula to someone (Bram Stoker fanfiction + drat near every other classic vampire book/movie + the author's pet Warhammer Fantasy character + Jack the Ripper thrown into a blender) it would sound dire. It is actually loving fantastic. Its sequels aren't quite as good (though I rate The Bloody Red Baron quite highly) but still well worth reading. (And the third book's alternative title of Dracula Cha Cha Cha is possibly the best title a book has ever had.)
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Aug 23, 2016 17:36
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A. Beaverhausen posted:About that, *late Skin Games spoilers* I really hated how Lasch was demoted to just a villian. With how we last saw her before Skin Games we had a Denarian that actually did something really cool. I understand it was because she was in Harry's head for so long, I just wish Jim had done something else with her. Dunno why I'm spoilering thing, do people really get this far in the thread before reading to that point? That wasn't Lash though. That was a shadow of Lasciel that was living in and constantly being molded by Harry's mind. By the time Lash 'died' she was an entirely different character from Lasciel. e: Beaten like Harry in the last third of the book. 
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Aug 23, 2016 17:40
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docbeard posted:It's funny, if you described the premise of Anno Dracula to someone (Bram Stoker fanfiction + drat near every other classic vampire book/movie + the author's pet Warhammer Fantasy character + Jack the Ripper thrown into a blender) it would sound dire. I actually even liked the sequels, although the quality does descend a bit and the last book doesn't really have any kind of ending or climax. Here's hoping we get a book 5 - did anyone do Dracula in space yet? I mean, apart from Watts.
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Aug 23, 2016 18:03
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anilEhilated posted:Let's not forget all the references to period pulp. Seriously, just about every character in that originates in some other book. A bit like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, then? I like Dracula a lot but it's very much a product of its time in the sense that, to our 21st century eyes, the protagonists don't come off as especially likeable, and are only the heroes of the tale at all because Dracula himself is pure evil.
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Aug 23, 2016 18:24
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anilEhilated posted:Let's not forget all the references to period pulp. Seriously, just about every character in that originates in some other book. The one that completely floored me (in a good way) was the Kolchak The Night Stalker cameo. quote:I actually even liked the sequels, although the quality does descend a bit and the last book doesn't really have any kind of ending or climax. Here's hoping we get a book 5 - did anyone do Dracula in space yet? I hadn't actually even realized the 4th book had finally happened. Shows how much attention I'm paying! Wheat Loaf posted:A bit like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, then? League is a great comparison, and based on this, I think you'll dig Anno-Dracula.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:26
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docbeard posted:The one that completely floored me (in a good way) was the Kolchak The Night Stalker cameo. docbeard posted:I hadn't actually even realized the 4th book had finally happened. Shows how much attention I'm paying! anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 23:44
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Wade Wilson posted:I just got to the part where the protagonist beat the cliff runner by cheating, told Dad to gently caress off out of his room when he got home, spent the night sleeping on the couch while the cliff runner slept in his bed, and basically got "brought in for questioning" by the magic cops the next morning. Finished this book last night and it got marginally better, but I still didn't care about any of the characters in it by the end of the story. On to the next one!
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Aug 25, 2016 12:33
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anilEhilated posted:Yeah, that's one of the more obscure ones. It comes with the job, but I imagine Newman is really a walking movie encyclopedia; my favorite (not-so) obscure cameo of his is in Book 4 when Rubber Duck the trucker briefly shows up in one of the stories. My favourite cameo has to be Pinhead's human form, Captain Spencer in The Bloody Red Baron - every named character (and I swear a few un-named characters) that isn't from one of Kim Newman's other books or short stories is from a famous film or book. Every one.
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Aug 25, 2016 13:02
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Reading Sandman Slim on this threads recommendation. It's all right! Decent world building, a lot of excitement going on. Protag is on the far side of the arsehole too cool for school spectrum but I really like the supporting cast.
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Aug 25, 2016 19:30
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The Anno Dracula books are relatively fun but they really do get kinda worse as they go on and by the last one I was just burned out. I actually liked the ending of the third book and was annoyed at the fourth book just sort of ehing its way through the inevitable.
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Aug 25, 2016 19:38
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Read Varny The Vampire: the feast of blood. Mostly because seeing what people thought vampires were like pre-dracula is neat.
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Aug 25, 2016 23:29
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Tunicate posted:Mostly because seeing what people thought vampires were like pre-dracula is neat. Lesbians, right?  From what I can tell, the only big element of vampires that Stoker popularised with Dracula, the one which has really lasted in most subsequent vampire fiction, was the idea that they can turn other people into vampires with a bite. Other than that, a lot of the stuff he attached to Dracula was drawn from existing folklore. I find that when a writer uses Dracula, they don't tend to talk so much about his ability to control animals or the weather or even his ability to scale sheer walls. I don't know if even his shape-changing is used all that extensively, either. As I mentioned, I was really struck by how unlikable the ostensible main characters were in Dracula back when I finally read it. I guess Mina is okay, and we don't really get to see very much of it through Lucy's eyes, so she's really a bit of a blank slate for all the other characters to fawn over. I reckon Van Helsing is Stoker's self-insert; they even have the same name. I can definitely see why it's so easy to recast Dracula as a more heroic character (I understand the real Dracula continues to be a bit of a hero in the Balkans for his wars against the invading Turks) and Van Helsing as some sort of fanatic. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Aug 26, 2016 |
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Aug 26, 2016 09:30
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Not really UF but Fred Saberhagen's The Dracula Tapes lets the Count tell the story from his point of view. As you might suspect, he doesn't have a very high opinion of Van Helsing.
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Aug 26, 2016 13:16
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I feel like Dracula must almost be a prototype for UF in some way. Alongside the likes of The Picture of Dorian Grey, Frankenstein, The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde etc. Yea? Nay? Maybe?
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Aug 26, 2016 14:44
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I'm not sure. I always felt that the most important point Dracula was making was something about the virtues of Victorian morality. The UF definition is problematic as well - I mean, if all you go for is "it takes place in the current era and has supernatural elements", you're among other things including just about every bit of horror written in the last 200 years.
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Aug 26, 2016 15:56
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anilEhilated posted:I'm not sure. I always felt that the most important point Dracula was making was something about the virtues of Victorian morality. I mean, UF is basically a supernatural horror offshoot. And most of them have horror and horror tropes deeply ingrained in their very fabric. The biggest difference is that the protagonist has the ability to win when they fight the supernatural. In that sense, Dracula would count but something like Frankenstein would not.
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Aug 26, 2016 16:47
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