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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I dunno about 'fan favorite', but yeah, it certainly would have been better received earlier in the season. I get what the aim was, with interweaving the stories, but gently caress they could have done it with a time capsule, or some space anomaly or just about anything other than a holodeck for gently caress's sake. Cutting off before Arch gives his big hero speech is just the last bit of gently caress you, too.
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Aug 21, 2016 17:11
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Hey now, why show his historic speech when we have this expensive CGI Enterprise flyover to show you? 
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Aug 21, 2016 17:35
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Hey now, why show his historic speech when we have this expensive CGI Enterprise flyover to show you? This is the main thing that was wrong with the episode. I think the TNG framing is fine and it's nice to see Riker again. I know I'm seriously in the minority here but I just didn't hate These Are the Voyages... that much. Even Trip dying is in principle fine, although the actual scene where it happens is kind of poor. But jeez at least write part of the speech.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:12
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EDIT: Edit is not quote.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:13
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Episode starts with Riker in the future worrying about what the Pegasus cloaking device means. He confides in Troi, who suggests a holoprogram that might help him. Turns out back during the Romulan War, the NX-01 captured a Romulan cloaking device. Elements of Starfleet, still aligned with General Robocop of Mars, want to use the cloaking technology to defeat the Romulans outright, then turn on their allies with their new upper hand. Archer hems and haws over what to do, Trip dies for some reason because of a near mutiny on board the NX-01 over what to do, but ultimately cooler heads prevail and leads directly the treaty signing during the war that causes the Federation. It ends just as Archer steps up to start the speech (which is probably too long to contain in the episode anyhow) Riker learns a valuable lesson somehow that feeds into his betrayal of Captain Guy From Lost. Episode ends with Archer wrapping up the speech, which ends with the "to boldly go" bit. During that voiceover, you see a montage of future Federation ships, just like the opening credits of the show. There, I wrote you a better episode in...about four minutes?
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Aug 21, 2016 18:33
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Sash! posted:Episode starts with Riker in the future worrying about what the Pegasus cloaking device means. If only the didn't stop taking on fan submitted scripts.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:57
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Sash! posted:Episode starts with Riker in the future worrying about what the Pegasus cloaking device means. You still run into the problem of the framework relying on viewer's knowledge of an (at that time) 11 year old TNG episode that most people probably don't remember.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:02
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Fortunately all they need to know is 'we have a cloaking device'.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:03
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Weren't cloaking devices presented as a new technology in TOS?
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Aug 21, 2016 19:06
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cheetah7071 posted:Weren't cloaking devices presented as a new technology in TOS? Brand-spankin'-new, yeah. TOS introduced the notion that being visually invisible was new, but they could still be picked up on motion tracking. Then they introduced the cloaking device proper, which made them invisible to sensors. Enterprise shat all over that by having the Romulans be able to cloak poo poo anyway.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:24
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If it's a good cloaking device nobody would ever have seen it before.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:33
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Just paint your drat ships like a starfield, you dumb fucks.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:48
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Just paint your drat ships like a starfield, you dumb fucks. Or only get into fights with species that don't use windows.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:01
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Big Mean Jerk posted:You still run into the problem of the framework relying on viewer's knowledge of an (at that time) 11 year old TNG episode that most people probably don't remember. Not really, because you say it all over again: Riker: Hey, remember how that Admiral I used to work for came over to visit and back in the old days we lost that ship we were on? Troi: Yeah. Riker: Well, here's the deal: there was actually a mutiny on board because it was a black project to develop a Federation cloaking device and now we might have found the missing ship, so I'm a little worried about what's going to happen because that poo poo is totally illegal. Troi: And you're not sure what to do because you're split between loyal to the law and loyalty to a man you respect? Riker: Plus I was sort of on the Evil Admiral's side at the time, so I'm not sure if I broke the law. Troi: Huh, tough one there. There's a time, way back at the beginning of the Federation that was very similar. Maybe spend some time exploring it in the holodeck and see what insight you get? Riker: Neat, I'll try not bone someone in it too, maybe!
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Aug 21, 2016 21:14
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They should have just had Frakes cameo as the finally revealed face for the chef.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:16
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Hey, It's me, Reggie Riker, the chef on the Enterprise.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:19
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Chef would have been a perfect place for a celebrity cameo. Can you imagine Gordon Ramsay appearing as the ship's chef de cuisine?
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Aug 21, 2016 21:25
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If I recall correctly, they were really hoping to get Shatner to play Chef as an ancestor of Kirk.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:31
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Sash! posted:Not really, because you say it all over again: Since they have to exposit the problem Riker is pondering anyway, I don't know why they didn't just come up with a whole new dilemma in the Enterprise-E era he could wrestle with. Avoid the problem of fat Riker and maybe even, I dunno, write it as a dilemma that in some way actually has parallels to the main plot. I mean, I liked "The Pegasus" but it's not like that was some beloved classic episode. If I didn't read beforehand "These Are the Voyages" was pulling from it I probably wouldn't have even identified the reference.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:36
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I kind of wish they did do the "hot new band plays in the mess hall every week" thing just because of how balls crazy that would have been.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:38
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Drink-Mix Man posted:If I recall correctly, they were really hoping to get Shatner to play Chef as an ancestor of Kirk.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:38
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Drink-Mix Man posted:If I recall correctly, they were really hoping to get Shatner to play Chef as an ancestor of Kirk. How long has it been since I pointed out how much better the new films would be if Young Kirk was just played by Shatner?
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Aug 21, 2016 21:50
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I dunno, how long has it been since someone said something that silly?
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Aug 21, 2016 21:58
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Rhyno posted:I dunno, how long has it been since someone said something that silly? Well... WickedHate posted:I kind of wish they did do the "hot new band plays in the mess hall every week" thing just because of how balls crazy that would have been.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:59
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Big Mean Jerk posted:You still run into the problem of the framework relying on viewer's knowledge of an (at that time) 11 year old TNG episode that most people probably don't remember. Pegasus was a pretty good episode, and I can see why they would want to go back to it. But it never really had a hole in it that cried out to be filled retroactively. If it did have such a hole, it probably wouldn't have been a pretty good episode. Doomed from the start...
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Aug 21, 2016 22:40
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They had to find an episode featuring old, fat Riker, there's nothing more to it than that.
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Aug 21, 2016 22:51
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The mechanics of the framing device and the episode they chose are inconsequential in comparison to the episode they chose to do the crossover in--the finale. Think back to how much everyone loved the Sulu flashback on Voyager. Fans love that poo poo. Just not as a series finale.
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Aug 21, 2016 23:58
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Astroman posted:The mechanics of the framing device and the episode they chose are inconsequential in comparison to the episode they chose to do the crossover in--the finale. If I'm recalling correctly, Berman and Braga wrote These Are The Voyages... about halfway through the third season, when they thought the show might get canceled, but when it was picked up that's when they came up with Space Nazis and told Manny Coto that was now his mess to clean up; Coto smelled bullshit during the fourth season and wrote Terra Prime as "his" finale, figuring that Berman would come back and insist that TATV be used as the series finale (and he was right).
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Aug 22, 2016 00:20
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Aww yiss. Just showed up on my Netflix.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:32
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Yes and the rest of us are stuck with freaking CBS All-Access.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:39
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Rhyno posted:Jolene Blalock was super pissed during the filming and was very vocal about how insulting the entire premises of the finale was from day one. She was just pissed that she had to hold still while Frakes smooched her.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:42
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yes and the rest of us are stuck with freaking CBS All-Access. Pirate the poo poo out of it along with the rest of the civilized world
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Aug 22, 2016 00:59
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Tighclops posted:Pirate the poo poo out of it along with the rest of the civilized world I have added the UK's technological distinctiveness to my own. Its culture has adapted to service me.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:55
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I seem to recall a goon (Meglar?) worked on Enterprise and had the task of finding a scene from TNG that would work with the ENT finale.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:54
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Mortanis posted:I seem to recall a goon (Meglar?) worked on Enterprise and had the task of finding a scene from TNG that would work with the ENT finale. Is it his fault that the footage they spliced fat Riker into also had Riker in it?
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Aug 22, 2016 02:56
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Powered Descent posted:Pegasus was a pretty good episode, and I can see why they would want to go back to it. But it never really had a hole in it that cried out to be filled retroactively. If it did have such a hole, it probably wouldn't have been a pretty good episode. Doomed from the start... Agreed, but still; Drink-Mix Man posted:Since they have to exposit the problem Riker is pondering anyway, I don't know why they didn't just come up with a whole new dilemma in the Enterprise-E era he could wrestle with. Avoid the problem of fat Riker and maybe even, I dunno, write it as a dilemma that in some way actually has parallels to the main plot. Make a new conflict for Riker that doesn't require the audience to ignore how fat Frakes had gotten in the ten years since The Pegasus aired. poo poo, this was 2005 so you could have set it post-Nemesis as Captain Riker on the Titan. Maybe compare Trip's death with Data's, I dunno. It's not as if you'd have to worry about alienating new viewers with unfamiliar characters, the hardcore trektards were the only ones watching the show at that point. Literally anything but what we got.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:06
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Agreed, but still; Reeling from Data's death, Riker looks to the past to see how-- faced with Trip's similar tragedy-- Captain Archer learned to cope with his own eating disorder.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:09
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Slogging through Voyager S2, Seska is working with the Kazon and we're getting all this crap about he Kazon and their history and like did anyone ever give half a poo poo?
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Aug 22, 2016 04:11
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Why were the Kazon around for so long? They were so primitive, how could their reach be that far?
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Aug 22, 2016 04:14
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Are the Kazon the trashcan race who couldn't figure out how to find water in space?
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Aug 22, 2016 04:16
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