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KVeezy3 posted:Not believing in abstract concepts is a stupid idea. The idea of the self, the individual soul, is an illusion that is just an abstract concept. If Death believes he is the personification of death, then he already believes he is an abstract concept. Naw he only believes in himself because he already exists. Also he's Death so he can't believe in concepts like Justice or Mercy because that would just hinder his work.
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Aug 21, 2016 23:37
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Naw he only believes in himself because he already exists. The idea of Death is that he takes people's souls, does he not? Then he already believes in abstract concepts, he just chooses to arbitrarily stop at theoretical concepts like justice
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Aug 21, 2016 23:42
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KVeezy3 posted:The idea of Death is that he takes people's souls, does he not? Then he already believes in abstract concepts, he just chooses to arbitrarily stop at theoretical concepts like justice Nah he can actually see and interact with souls, they're not abstract to him.
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Aug 21, 2016 23:47
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Nah he can actually see and interact with souls, they're not abstract to him. That was not the logic he used in the passage to declare justice as a "Big lie" told by humanity. Show me an atom of a soul.
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Aug 21, 2016 23:49
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KVeezy3 posted:That was not the logic he used in the passage to declare justice as a "Big lie" told by humanity. Show me an atom of a soul. No that was his point - these concepts and things are absolutely real and crucially important to humans even though they can't actually be shown to objectively exist. He's not using the word 'lie' in the same way that a human would.
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Aug 21, 2016 23:56
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KVeezy3 posted:That was not the logic he used in the passage to declare justice as a "Big lie" told by humanity. Show me an atom of a soul. I just realized how this is familiar - it's literally Lex Luthor's argument to the judge as he is being sentenced to death for murder at the beginning of All-Star Superman.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:02
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:No that was his point - these concepts and things are absolutely real and crucially important to humans even though they can't actually be shown to objectively exist. He's not using the word 'lie' in the same way that a human would. You're talking in circles. If Death is literally unable to understand abstract concepts, then he is functionally mentally retarded and we're supposed to be taking wisdom from him?
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Aug 22, 2016 00:12
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KVeezy3 posted:You're talking in circles. If Death is literally unable to understand abstract concepts, then he is functionally mentally retarded and we're supposed to be taking wisdom from him? He's unable to fully enter the Lacanian Imaginary Order or the Symbolic Order (even though he's a product/reflection of them) but he can observe their effects by observing human community. He's stuck in The Real but he's capable of learning about abstract concepts from secondhand knowledge. That's also how he's able to use language, even though he's (assumedly) only copying human language and doesn't genuinely understand the concept.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:21
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Death is perfectly capable of understanding abstract concepts. He tends to takes things quite literally but being Death personified let him learn from human beings and pick up on weird foibles like justice and mercy. Death's point in Hogfather is that humanity's capacity for imagination is what allows us to have a capacity for capital-g Good. If we can imagine something as silly as the Hogfather/Santa/Father Christmas than we can imagine something a lot more serious, like Justice and Mercy. The point is that these qualities are human inventions to make sense of a cold universe with no inherent morality.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:24
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NTRabbit posted:BvS exists so that film students can practise using obscure theory nobody cares about to defend an inherently bad movie long enough for everyone to get bored
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Aug 22, 2016 00:32
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Tomatoman speaks and we all cut the poo poo and open our ears to the truth.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:34
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HIJK posted:Death's point in Hogfather is that humanity's capacity for imagination is what allows us to have a capacity for capital-g Good. If we can imagine something as silly as the Hogfather/Santa/Father Christmas than we can imagine something a lot more serious, like Justice and Mercy. Justice isn't imaginary. It's abstract. Also an abstraction: atoms. NTRabbit posted:BvS exists so that film students can practise using obscure theory nobody cares about to defend an inherently bad movie long enough for everyone to get bored I studied computer science and then law.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:46
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Thread went from BvS to ethical nihilism pretty fast here.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:52
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Sir Kodiak posted:Justice isn't imaginary. It's abstract. Also an abstraction: atoms. But by that definition Justice isn't abstract, because it doesn't have physical properties like an atom?
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Aug 22, 2016 01:17
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Justice is a abstract object.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:19
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HIJK posted:But by that definition Justice isn't abstract, because it doesn't have physical properties like an atom? I have no idea what you mean by this. What definition? What makes you think I'm saying abstractions must have physical properties?
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Aug 22, 2016 01:23
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Life is a abstract object.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:24
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Sir Kodiak posted:I have no idea what you mean by this. What definition? What makes you think I'm saying abstractions must have physical properties? You called atoms an abstraction, which is what threw me.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:33
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HIJK posted:You called atoms an abstraction, which is what threw me. Doesn't really answer my questions. Anyways, they're just a mathematical model for various physical interactions at a particular granularity. They're real, in a sense, but so is justice. The key point is that the extent to which they are unreal is notably distinct from the sense in which Santa Claus is unreal.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:43
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Sir Kodiak posted:Doesn't really answer my questions. Anyways, they're just a mathematical model for various physical interactions at a particular granularity. They're real, in a sense, but so is justice. The key point is that the extent to which they are unreal is notably distinct from the sense in which Santa Claus is unreal. That makes more sense, thanks.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:50
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Sir Kodiak posted:Anyways, they're just a mathematical model for various physical interactions at a particular granularity. You have a woefully poor understanding of physics if you actually believe this.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:10
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Saying atoms are abstract is one of the most baffling things I've ever read. Like I don't even know where to start with that.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:12
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Matter is an illusion created by the presence of gravity.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:26
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mr. stefan posted:You have a woefully poor understanding of physics if you actually believe this. It's a theory that produces great predictions, but it's silly to treat the story that goes along with the math as somehow representing some fundamental reality.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:40
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DrVenkman posted:Wow this thread is pretty terrible. What, you don't have a strong opinion about Batman killing people? I don't think we've broached that topic yet. Maluco Marinero posted:A movie that spells everything out for you, wraps everything up in a neat comfortable little bow, and moves on, doesn't tend to be discussed much further than 'wasn't it cool when that thing happened'. Right, because no one never discusses loving Star Wars.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:41
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Sir Kodiak posted:It's a theory that produces great predictions, but it's silly to treat the story that goes along with the math as somehow representing some fundamental reality. So we've established that among other things you have a gross misunderstanding of quantum physics, got it.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:48
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^^^ Jesus loving christ lay off the physics bullshit. If you need to correct him, send him a PM or post it, don't make some vague bullshit statement about him "just not understanding it".BiggerBoat posted:What, you don't have a strong opinion about Batman killing people? I don't think we've broached that topic yet. If Star Wars ep 4 happened today no one would give a poo poo in a year. Except for its soundtrack. That's timeless. Hell, ep 7, a remake of ep 4, came out today and as a movie that stands alone it's literally nothing special or interesting. Drifter fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 02:50
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Sir Kodiak posted:It's a theory that produces great predictions, but it's silly to treat the story that goes along with the math as somehow representing some fundamental reality. If you have no idea what you're talking about you should probably stop talking.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:52
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mr. stefan posted:So we've established that among other things you have a gross misunderstanding of quantum physics, got it. I'm not sure your flat assertion counts as establishing something.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:57
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Karloff posted:I.... have.... done..... this...... so....... many....... times. It does get old, doesn't it? People are real loving defensive about BvS. Dudes come in and post well constructed, long, descriptive paragraphs about why the film sucked (and it did) and motherfuckers either say "you just weren't watching, man. It's all right there" or plug their loving fingers in their ears and cover their eyes, pretending that no one ever posted any legitimate criticism about a tremendously lovely movie. Don't go in the loving BvS thread whatever you if you think this one sucks Christ, I'd rather go back to arguing about Man of Steel at this point. Dr. Strange and Luke Cage can't come out soon enough for me. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Go to the BVS thread! Don't.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:57
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BiggerBoat posted:
This is really underselling Star Wars, tbh. Like, sure A New Hope was meant to be self-contained, but it didn't explain every single thing about its universe. It had a happy ending, but the Empire wasn't completely gone. Cool things happed in ANH, but what made it special was its themes, characters, and innovative (at that time) filmmaking decisions.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:59
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BiggerBoat posted:It does get old, doesn't it? Hahaha Hahahahahaha What, are you reading posts from Earth-2 or something?
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Aug 22, 2016 03:02
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Drifter posted:Hahaha I've read a ton of poo poo from posters describing in great detail their issues what that movie, here and on other forums. I've written a few effort posts myself on the subject but, whatever. Just keep on liking the movie and thinking that people who don't are empty headed idiots who only post "it sucked".
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Aug 22, 2016 03:22
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BiggerBoat posted:I've read a ton of poo poo from posters describing in great detail their issues what that movie, here and on other forums. I've written a few effort posts myself on the subject but, whatever. Just keep on liking the movie and thinking that people who don't are empty headed idiots who only post "it sucked". "If you think Batman killing is ok, then you're condoning the act of killing".
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Aug 22, 2016 03:24
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BiggerBoat posted:It does get old, doesn't it? The frustration in this post is palpable. Maybe you should consider not being so emotionally invested in it.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:25
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Really, Batman v Superman is tonally closest to '66 Batman. Complete with Bruce Wayne's flamboyant, 'accidental' killing of nameless henchmen, the character is basically passively deputized by the modern prison-industrial complex. He's RoboCop. The whole thing boils down to him getting this sickening Cape Fear ending confrontation with Lex Luthor, where he decides that keeping him locked in a concrete cell for the rest of his life is a more "humane" punishment than simply executing him. It's just that Snyder, Goyer, and Terrio add this additional twist that the sanctimonious Cape Fear ending is subverted: the big Omega Dream apocalypse scenario is coming, and Bruce needs to decide whether he's going to be "with the people," or with the literal gods.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:26
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Pratchet's very poor writing is making things needlessly convoluted, and now we have people sincerely arguing for the existence of Santa Claus or something. Let's go back to before things got silly. Lord Magmar deployed Pratchet to, effectively, endorse Batman's and Gordon's actions at the end of The Dark Knight: "lies are necessary when they're used to teach an important lesson." The people are seen as too immature to handle the truth about Dent's crimes so, to maintain order, it's necessary to deceive them. Like the fusion reactor kept hidden in Dark Knight Rises: the world isn't ready for this technology. People can't be trusted, governments are too corrupt, etc. Therefore we must conceal or destroy the technology. The same operation is at work in the covering up of Batman's killing. Note how Magmar & Pratchet's message effortlessly coincides with a straightforward endorsement of paganism. We'll cynically teach people to worship false gods so we can maintain the lie that our society is just. Magmar stands for deceit. That is his programme. Truth is a threat to his ideology. To this pagan idiot 'Death' character, I introduce Christ. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 03:27
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BiggerBoat posted:I've read a ton of poo poo from posters describing in great detail their issues what that movie, here and on other forums. I've written a few effort posts myself on the subject but, whatever. Just keep on liking the movie and thinking that people who don't are empty headed idiots who only post "it sucked". So, what, people should just defer to the amount of effort you put into a post? Absurd. Argue better.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:31
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Myth: Batman doesn't poop. Reality: Everybody poops.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Myth: Batman doesn't poop. And if they don't, they're an android, and should be destroyed.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:51
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