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I've spoken before about how I respect the cleverness of BvS's measures to work within the restrictive "no collateral damage" framework, and the fact that Batman has a destitute area of Gotham that he pretty much treats as the Wayne Industries Combat District is definitely one of them
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Aug 23, 2016 18:55
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Has Batman become just sort of 'lesser' in each live-action version of the character since Adam West? Adam West was the idealized Silver Age Batman: Didn't kill, friend of the cops, smart, athletic, happened to have good detective skills, kept the best secret identity, and by the end of every episode the criminals were off the street and behind bars for their prankish crimes. In BvS: Batman is a wreck and a failure who is hated by everyone, he's sloppy, hasn't accomplished anything, his own friends and close ones are critical of him or dead, he's unafraid of killing, he's not that good a detective, his secret identity isn't a secret. In between, you have 3 different incarnations that all sort of pick and choose which aspects of the character from the pop culture consensus on the character that will be followed. I can only imagine the next WB relaunch will likely end up having to feature Batman as an out and out 'villain'. Someone would dispatch a 'Suicide Squad' because the gov't can't deal with this one costumed weirdo going around killing, terrorizing and torturing its citizens and are going to send an army of similar costumed weirdos to take him out. Batman only becomes seen as a 'hero' by the end by virtue of being recognized as the guy who caught an army of escaped supercriminals and not because he's really a good guy.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:02
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I don't think he's a wreck or a failure, and he's pretty drat popular with the people.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:05
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JediTalentAgent posted:Adam West was the idealized Silver Age Batman: Didn't kill, friend of the cops, smart, athletic, happened to have good detective skills, kept the best secret identity, and by the end of every episode the criminals were off the street and behind bars for their prankish crimes. This is actually false. Batman spent the first episode getting caught by the villains, then the next night's episode he'd get free and catch the villain (or at least that's season 1's formula)
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Aug 23, 2016 19:08
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JediTalentAgent posted:Adam West was the idealized Silver Age Batman: Didn't kill, friend of the cops, smart, athletic, happened to have good detective skills, kept the best secret identity, and by the end of every episode the criminals were off the street and behind bars for their prankish crimes.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:15
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Jenny Angel posted:My boy's already got a post-retirement book deal lined up for a memoir called If I WAS THE BATMAN 
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Aug 23, 2016 19:18
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If the book looked exactly like that photoshop I'd buy it yesterday
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Aug 23, 2016 19:19
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I don't think he's a wreck or a failure, and he's pretty drat popular with the people. Batman at least sort of thinks he is. He considers 20 years fighting crime in Gotham to be a waste. He admits to failing Superman at the end of the film. Cops have sort of gone from being buddy-buddy and even just a bit tolerant of the Batman through the half-way mark of TDK to just openly trying to blast him with a shotgun the moment they see him in BvS.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:22
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JediTalentAgent posted:Batman at least sort of thinks he is. He considers 20 years fighting crime in Gotham to be a waste. He admits to failing Superman at the end of the film. Cops have sort of gone from being buddy-buddy and even just a bit tolerant of the Batman through the half-way mark of TDK to just openly trying to blast him with a shotgun the moment they see him in BvS. The one cop does tell the other one "hey maybe you don't shoot at the good guys" referring to himself and batman. The cop that shot at Bats was loving terrified though and it was a really great way to introduce The Batman. Also it's important to note that Bruce says those things while in his blind rage. He's clearly jaded, but the Superman being real just makes him feel that much tinier on the grand scale. When he says he failed Superman it's an admittance that he had lost his hope, but thankfully "men are still good" because Superman inspires him.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:27
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JediTalentAgent posted:Batman at least sort of thinks he is. He considers 20 years fighting crime in Gotham to be a waste. He admits to failing Superman at the end of the film. Cops have sort of gone from being buddy-buddy and even just a bit tolerant of the Batman through the half-way mark of TDK to just openly trying to blast him with a shotgun the moment they see him in BvS. The Ultimate Cut of BvS shows that Batman is liked and respected by some people. The parts you mention are all conditional. Batman considers crimefighting to be a waste because a flying, invulnerable man (who he sincerely believes can, and will, end the world on a whim) shows up. The cop that shoots at him is a rookie and the older cop delivers a line with a double meeting after he shoots at Batman - "point that thing at the bad guys, will you?" In the UC, they also have fun cartoons with Batman kicking rear end pinned around the police station.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:27
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Also a big thing to keep in mind about the Adam West Batman was that it was smart. It knew what it was and had fun with it. It was as straight faced as it was a parody. Adam West Batman was a reflection and commentary on Batman of his era, and slightly before. Same can be said about Snyder's Batman, a reflection and response to the Millar Batman that has defined who Batman has been for the last two going on three decades. Revealing that yes, the Millar Batman was and always has been a violent psychopath who is better suited to being the villain rather than the hero. One that hides behind false assurances and half truths. Batman in the Dark Knight Returns breaking the Joker's neck so he could never do anything again is worse than him just killing the guy. But he justifies it to himself because hey, he's not dead. Snyder's Batman sees through that entirely.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:30
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Burkion posted:One that hides behind false assurances and half truths. "A beautiful lie"
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Aug 23, 2016 19:32
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JediTalentAgent posted:Batman at least sort of thinks he is. He considers 20 years fighting crime in Gotham to be a waste. He admits to failing Superman at the end of the film. Cops have sort of gone from being buddy-buddy and even just a bit tolerant of the Batman through the half-way mark of TDK to just openly trying to blast him with a shotgun the moment they see him in BvS. That's to establish how scary he is and the other cop gives him a dressing down over it. Nobody seems to give a poo poo about hunting batman and its accepted he's just a thing that fucks up Gotham like the weather. Other versions, sans West, all are trying to become mythic and scary and establishing their cred but this Batman already is.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:34
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Myth: Batman doesn't poop. Kevin Smith once wrote a comic where he made Batman piss himself during a Frank Miller scene  Smith said to his critics that this happens to any firefighter who feels a sudden wave of heat. It would have already been Canon.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:48
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MacheteZombie posted:This is actually false. Batman spent the first episode getting caught by the villains, then the next night's episode he'd get free and catch the villain (or at least that's season 1's formula) I don't think I'd call Adam West athletic either.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:54
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He also dances better than Nolan's Batman.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:56
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RBA Starblade posted:I don't think I'd call Adam West athletic either. Dude was built if you look at a picture of him with no shirt.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:56
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RBA Starblade posted:I don't think I'd call Adam West athletic either. For the tone of the series, I would. He's always fighting, climbing up the side of buildings, surfing.
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Aug 23, 2016 19:57
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Aug 23, 2016 19:59
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Holy poo poo the Batman outfit makes him look insanely chubby.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:00
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greatn posted:Dude was built if you look at a picture of him with no shirt.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:00
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Halloween Jack posted:Yeah, it turns out that tights are actually the least flattering garment for the kind of body that people want Batman to have. Hence every male superhero needs a muscle suit, even Christian Bale and Chris Evans. Exhibit A: 
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Aug 23, 2016 20:07
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RBA Starblade posted:I don't think I'd call Adam West athletic either. Adam West and Burt Ward were in pretty darn good shape, actually.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:10
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B: 
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Aug 23, 2016 20:11
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Corek posted:Smith said to his critics that this happens to any firefighter who feels a sudden wave of heat. It would have already been Canon. The funniest part is he tried to downplay people's arguments by saying "they just want a perfect, flawless Batman" which is idiotic because Year One is already about a flawed Batman who has to learn a bunch of hard lessons and work with others in order to become the fully realized Batman. So he took a scene that was already built up as "Bruce Wayne keeps loving up but here's where he finally figures things out and becomes a legitimate threat" and turned it into a loving piss joke, complete with the character he (Smith) created laughing it up at Bats' expense.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:21
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I don't want to defend Smith, but Year One was written a long while back. Whereas I can see literally taking the piss out of Batman as a welcome break from where the character was roundabout Final Crisis and its aftermath.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:27
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I always thought Batman's "no killing" thing was just shorthand for "no executions". Well, that's how an adult would see it, but adults don't read comic books, so... J/K, I agree.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:32
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Burkion posted:Batman has been for the last two going on three decades. Revealing that yes, the Millar Batman was and always has been a violent psychopath who is better suited to being the villain rather than the hero. Inhabitants of Gotham... this is the Batman. In case you people have forgotten, this city operates under the same rules as the rest of the city. Joker is not the law. I am the law.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:42
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JediTalentAgent posted:Batman at least sort of thinks he is. He considers 20 years fighting crime in Gotham to be a waste. He admits to failing Superman at the end of the film. Cops have sort of gone from being buddy-buddy and even just a bit tolerant of the Batman through the half-way mark of TDK to just openly trying to blast him with a shotgun the moment they see him in BvS. BvS isn't a sequel to the Nolan movies. Different Batman, different continuity. If you care about that kind of stuff. Lots of people seem to think BvS is a sequel to TDKR. Which, if that many people do, then I can see why they feel the need to always reboot with an origin story. Huzanko fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 20:44
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Noam Chomsky posted:BvS isn't a sequel to the Nolan movies. Different Batman, different continuity. If you care about that kind of stuff. Lots of people seem to think BvS is a sequel to TDKR. Which, if that many people do, then I can see why they feel the need to always reboot with an origin story. It's like, thematically a sequel. But yeah, it's not an actual sequel.
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Aug 23, 2016 20:50
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Drifter posted:It's like, thematically a sequel. But yeah, it's not an actual sequel. A lot of folks I've talked to think it's an actual sequel. But that's on the filmmakers for not making it clearer. They also should've made it more clear that this is a Batman who has been Batman for a long time, saw Robin died, and is now becoming a just like the criminals he fights. It was pretty clear to me but it seems like a lot of folks don't realize that or just don't care. I mean, I assume everyone in this thread is just taking the piss, but still.
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Aug 23, 2016 21:14
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I always thought Batman's "no killing" thing was just shorthand for "no executions". I mentioned this a while back but they explicitly say this in Batman Begins
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Aug 23, 2016 21:32
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Impassioned Liberal: "Who made you judge, jury, and executioner?!" Batman: "Ha! Shows how much you know!"
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Aug 23, 2016 21:35
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Noam Chomsky posted:A lot of folks I've talked to think it's an actual sequel. But that's on the filmmakers for not making it clearer. They also should've made it more clear that this is a Batman who has been Batman for a long time, saw Robin died, and is now becoming a just like the criminals he fights. It was pretty clear to me but it seems like a lot of folks don't realize that or just don't care. I mean, I assume everyone in this thread is just taking the piss, but still. The dead Robin can be Joseph Gordon-Levitt, and the narrative still makes perfect sense. In many ways it works better. Another example: "You don't know me, but I've known a few women like you." He's implicitly talking about Selina Kyle from Dark Knight Rises. Diana Prince is presented the same way. Intertextuality with the Nolan films is simply built into these ones. For example: the presentation of Lex Luthor in Dawn Of Justice is designed to resemble Heath Ledger's Joker in many respects - an anarcho-capitalist to that character's anarchist. The film ends with Lex Luthor acting like Joker and being sent to Arkham. Then the next film, Suicide Squad, begins with Joker breaking out of Arkham. It's not literally the same character, but it's the same character.
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Aug 23, 2016 21:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The film ends with Lex Luthor acting like Joker and being sent to Arkham. Then the next film, Suicide Squad, begins with Joker breaking out of Arkham. A joker who is much more of a savvy businessman and self-conscious performative persona than previous on-screen Jokers, at that
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Aug 23, 2016 21:59
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JediTalentAgent posted:I can only imagine the next WB relaunch will likely end up having to feature Batman as an out and out 'villain'. Someone would dispatch a 'Suicide Squad' because the gov't can't deal with this one costumed weirdo going around killing, terrorizing and torturing its citizens and are going to send an army of similar costumed weirdos to take him out. Batman only becomes seen as a 'hero' by the end by virtue of being recognized as the guy who caught an army of escaped supercriminals and not because he's really a good guy. So instead of Zack Snyder's Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, they'd just make a movie of Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns.
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Aug 23, 2016 22:03
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Wrong thread
Conal Cochran fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 22:08
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LesterGroans posted:Do you have this issue with Die Hard or Raiders of the Lost Ark? This is, and always will be, a terrible argument. Different characters in different stories with different contexts are different. If the upcoming Justice League featured a Batman who didn't dress up like a bat, but instead wore a fedora and used a whip would you go "Yeah, well, you didn't have a problem with Raiders of the Lost Ark so it's weird for you to find that odd"?
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Aug 23, 2016 23:10
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I mentioned this a while back but they explicitly say this in Batman Begins "I'm not gonna kill you...but I don't have to save you either!" is such a lame slam dunk in a series full of them.
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Aug 23, 2016 23:13
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Karloff posted:This is, and always will be, a terrible argument. Different characters in different stories with different contexts are different. If the upcoming Justice League featured a Batman who didn't dress up like a bat, but instead wore a fedora and used a whip would you go "Yeah, well, you didn't have a problem with Raiders of the Lost Ark so it's weird for you to find that odd"? "Different characters in different stories with different contexts are different" is kind of my point. In the context of BvS (and most Batman movies) Batman seems to kill when he has to. So there are two reasons I asked that: 1) because SnakeBananas seems to think not having an issue with this is akin to condoning murder irl, and 2) he's bringing in stuff like comics and Batman Beyond so I figured other media was fair game.
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Aug 23, 2016 23:31
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