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Jewmanji posted:a bunch of 7 year olds learn to use deadly weapons. Imagine how that would look in modern terms, for a soldier to walk into a camp to consult with his commanding officer, only to see the officer training 7 year olds with machine guns. Yeah, but this is a fantasy story and those aren't normal 7 year olds. Those 7 year olds could range in force ability from "can make a pencil fly across a room" to "can drop a car on someone". Early training was supposed to be a good thing for force users?
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Aug 29, 2016 03:13
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spacetoaster posted:Yeah, but this is a fantasy story and those aren't normal 7 year olds. These aren't X-Men mutants though. The "potential" Force users we see in the movies- Luke, Anakin, Rey- aren't lighting people on fire with their minds. Anakin for all his midichlorians is just really lucky. It's training that makes you a deadly Jedi warrior.
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Aug 29, 2016 03:20
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A person can be force-sensitive and go their whole lives without realizing it.
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Aug 29, 2016 03:34
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Maxwell Lord posted:These aren't X-Men mutants though. The "potential" Force users we see in the movies- Luke, Anakin, Rey- aren't lighting people on fire with their minds. Anakin for all his midichlorians is just really lucky. It's training that makes you a deadly Jedi warrior. On the other hand one could say the force lets you make your own luck.
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Aug 29, 2016 04:01
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Bongo Bill posted:A person can be force-sensitive and go their whole lives without realizing it. Some people also just act like they're force-sensitive because it's trendy.
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Aug 29, 2016 13:57
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Senor Tron posted:That would have been a great message for the prequels. What if Palpatine wasn't just generic evil bad guy, but actually thought he was doing good. So much injustice and wasted potential in the galaxy, and now here he is with the power to fix those wrongs. Sure some people who don't deserve to will die, but you have to weigh up the numbers. So he tries to control the galaxy in harder and harsher ways. But the tighter he and Vader grip, the more worlds fight and struggle and try to escape. But they can't stop, if the stop it will be chaos, so they have to exert control. Even if whole planets have to die for it. This is exactly how Palpatine sells it to Anakin in Episode III: quote:PALPATINE: I know what has been troubling you . . . Listen to me. Don't continue to be a pawn of the Jedi Council! Ever since I've known you, you've been searching for a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi . . . a life of significance, of conscience. And it's a callback to this exchange from Episode I: quote:ANAKIN. I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the Palpatine's lying though. He's really only in it for his own personal aggrandizement, and eventually Anakin ends up only being in it for that too. Taking advantage of your power to tear everything down and assert your singular crusader's will on the universe is the wrong way to go about things--even if you claim it's all in the name of peace, justice, and security. It almost always ends up making things worse. This isn't esoteric stuff, it's basically just another version of "America can't be the policeman of the world." Not every problem can be solved overnight through the simple application of force. The Jedi are powerful, and they have a responsibility not to abuse that power in idealistic geopolitical acts of vigilantism. The Jedi can't go off on their own and overthrow a planetary government (and then presumably become the "temporary" rulers of the new government). There are just...so many problems with that idea. Elfgames posted:except for tatooine. because apparently jabba is still allowed to have slaves. Exactly. As soon as Palpatine and Vader actually have their all-powerful Empire established, they forget all about what supposedly motivated them to set it up in the first place. Jabba's their buddy now, presumably because he's more useful to them as an ally than as an enemy. They don't care about justice, only what benefits them personally and adds to their power. It's an interesting parallel to what The Clone Wars series shows us about the Republic striking up an alliance with Jabba and the Hutts to gain a strategic advantage over the Separatists. The Empire is no better than the Republic in that regard, and is in fact even worse, because now the moral compromises aren't even being done for anybody's benefit except the two people at the top. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Aug 30, 2016 |
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Aug 30, 2016 13:24
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Apollodorus posted:But did Luke really do the right thing? The events between RotJ and TFA seem to suggest otherwise. Given the 30 some year gap between the movies, its reasonable to expect that doing the right thing isn't suddenly going to remove every future problem. It solved a couple of big ones, though.
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Aug 31, 2016 00:06
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Maxwell Lord posted:These aren't X-Men mutants though. The "potential" Force users we see in the movies- Luke, Anakin, Rey- aren't lighting people on fire with their minds. Anakin for all his midichlorians is just really lucky. It's training that makes you a deadly Jedi warrior. Ok. So it makes sense to start weapons training as early as possible.
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Aug 31, 2016 01:27
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is it ok if i like a lot of star wars but don't like some of it?
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Aug 31, 2016 01:31
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I always imagined that the Hutts had a tremendous amount of cachet in the Republic, and since they controlled Tatooine there was nothing the Republic could do short of full-scale war or regime change. It's an obviously bad situation created in part by the Republic's corruption and by its sincere desire to avoid inter-planetary conflict. It wouldn't be appropriate for the Jedi to start hacking Hutts and other slavers up without some sort of Republic backing.
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Aug 31, 2016 02:48
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Dr. Tim Whatley posted:is it ok if i like a lot of star wars but don't like some of it? Is the part you like now, or has it ever been, part of the EU?
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Aug 31, 2016 02:51
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KaptainKrunk posted:I always imagined that the Hutts had a tremendous amount of cachet in the Republic, and since they controlled Tatooine there was nothing the Republic could do short of full-scale war or regime change. It's an obviously bad situation created in part by the Republic's corruption and by its sincere desire to avoid inter-planetary conflict. It wouldn't be appropriate for the Jedi to start hacking Hutts and other slavers up without some sort of Republic backing. They have the same cachet that 3rd World Dictator and Crime Bosses have in the real world. The powers that be typically prefer whatever semblance of order they provide over the alternatives that may prop up. When it comes to Tattooine specifically though we have no reason to believe that it would continue existing in any meaningful way if it wasn't a Hutt trade hub.
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Aug 31, 2016 02:57
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Barudak posted:Is the part you like now, or has it ever been, part of the EU? Nah, it's mostly when chewbacca is on screen
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Aug 31, 2016 03:06
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Dr. Tim Whatley posted:Nah, it's mostly when chewbacca is on screen So you prefer most of the Ewok scenes, compared to everything else in RoTJ?
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Aug 31, 2016 08:02
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THE BAR posted:So you prefer most of the Ewok scenes, compared to everything else in RoTJ? Yeh they rule mostly
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Aug 31, 2016 14:32
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Dr. Tim Whatley posted:Nah, it's mostly when chewbacca is on screen Dr. Tim Whatley posted:Yeh they rule mostly Cast in the name of the Force, ye not guilty
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Aug 31, 2016 17:00
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Maxwell Lord posted:These aren't X-Men mutants though. The "potential" Force users we see in the movies- Luke, Anakin, Rey- aren't lighting people on fire with their minds. Anakin for all his midichlorians is just really lucky. It's training that makes you a deadly Jedi warrior. It's training that makes the X-Men deadly warriors though. What do you think Xaviers school is for? It's the original Jedi training temple.
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Sep 1, 2016 02:55
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I said come in! posted:It's training that makes the X-Men deadly warriors though. What do you think Xaviers school is for? It's the original Jedi training temple. Except minus the indoctrination into a religious cult, plus having positive relationships, plus having good, wise leadership. Maybe its bad to strip children of their social surroundings/family ties, put them into a highly regimented militaristic lifestyle, and then tell them to suppress their own emotions which from what I understand causes a whole loving slew of problems. So we have a recipe essentially to churn out socially retarded, internally conflicted, child soldiers Phi230 fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 13:08
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Phi230 posted:Except minus the indoctrination into a religious cult, plus having positive relationships, plus having good, wise leadership. It seemed to work out really well for everyone who wasn't Anakin, to be fair.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:50
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RBA Starblade posted:It seemed to work out really well for everyone who wasn't Anakin, to be fair. Didn't work for Dooku either.
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Sep 1, 2016 15:02
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Barudak posted:Didn't work for Dooku either. 2 people in 1000 years is still a pretty good track record.
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Sep 1, 2016 15:35
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RBA Starblade posted:It seemed to work out really well for everyone who wasn't Anakin, to be fair. But did it? The entire Jedi order was incapable of recognizing evil in its midst, on board with conscripting a slave army, and all too willing to seize power by force (hah!) when things didn't go their way. And then they have the nerve to be shocked when they all get murdered in a day and most of the galaxy just shrugs. Perhaps if they had cultivated more and better relationships beyond their immediate circle of Philosopher-Kings, this would not have happened? Of course, that is the point. If you accept the rule of elite Philosopher-Kings whose life is unlike that of those they rule, you risk their valuing your life differently from their own.
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Sep 1, 2016 15:49
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For a millennia yeah, apparently it did, but it sure poo poo the bed hard! I didn't think the Jedi ruled the Republic for that millennia though.
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Sep 1, 2016 15:51
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RBA Starblade posted:For a millennia yeah, apparently it did, but it sure poo poo the bed hard! I didn't think the Jedi ruled the Republic for that millennia though. What the Force is to the Jedi, the Jedi are to the Republic. Sometimes they control its actions, and at others obey its commands.
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Sep 1, 2016 16:12
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RBA Starblade posted:2 people in 1000 years is still a pretty good track record. We really don't know how many failed out. We just know that for approximately 1000 years the Jedi had influential roles. It doesn't mean their weren't periods of serious decline or that they were as intrinsic to the state as they were at the end nor does it mean only two people quit the order. If they were anything like similar religious institutions in our world it's like lily that 1000 years is about as accurate as 5000 years of Chinese history where even things as obvious as foreign conquering invaders can get glossed over for the sake of narrative.
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Sep 1, 2016 16:13
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*A thousand generations, so like 25,000 years.
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Sep 1, 2016 16:50
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There were also the Lost Twenty from the AOTC deleted scenes, who weren't necessarily evil, but decided to leave the Jedi. Still rare enough to be noteworthy, but not entirely unheard of or just limited to some exceptions during their fall.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:05
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Let it be entered into the record that the Jedi's own definition of "peace and stability" is just lack of the Sith. I'm sure during the thousand year It seems if I, a normal non-force person, like nuked a billion people the Jedi would shrug and exclaim "force wills it!" but if I had an unnaturally lucky gambling streak before I did said holocaust they would break a sweat and maybe talk about doing something.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:12
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The very first (chronologically) action we see the Jedi in is a trade dispute/humanitarian crisis that they have no idea involves the Sith. 
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Sep 1, 2016 17:16
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The fact that we never see or hear about any Force-users outside the Jedi order (Dooku left obvs) is pretty drat ominous if you ask me.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:33
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Serf posted:The fact that we never see or hear about any Force-users outside the Jedi order (Dooku left obvs) is pretty drat ominous if you ask me. A few show up in Clone Wars and Rebels. Though yes, the Jedi typically don't allow other groups of psychic mutants to organize and train.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:40
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Bongo Bill posted:A few show up in Clone Wars and Rebels. Though yes, the Jedi typically don't allow other groups of psychic mutants to organize and train. I haven't watched all of Clone Wars so I can't speak to that, but who showed up in Rebels? Even then, Rebels takes place after the fall of the Jedi.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:44
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Schwarzwald posted:H Lucas probably didn't have this in mind when he made the scene, but a few things could be happening here. 1. Kenobi is distracting Vader so that he doesn't go chasing after Luke and the others, potentially finding out that he has a son before Luke is ready to fight off the advances of the dark side. and 2. By the time Kenobi sees that Luke is relatively safe, that they're back to the ship and stuff, he knows there's no way for him to get out of that fight alive, and so sacrifices himself so that he can turn into a force ghost and...continue to be super vague about Vader being Luke's father and stuff. See, it all makes sense, from a certain point of view.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:09
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Serf posted:The fact that we never see or hear about any Force-users outside the Jedi order (Dooku left obvs) is pretty drat ominous if you ask me. They have full state sanction and a device which calculates force probabilities based on a tiny blood sample. Given how hospitals run tests even today, it's fairly likely that within hours of a birth the Jedi will come a knocking on your door to steal your child. This, actually, makes a pretty convincing case why there are pretty large populations of people who do not want to live in republic controlled space.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:22
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Barudak posted:They have full state sanction and a device which calculates force probabilities based on a tiny blood sample. Given how hospitals run tests even today, it's fairly likely that within hours of a birth the Jedi will come a knocking on your door to steal your child. This, actually, makes a pretty convincing case why there are pretty large populations of people who do not want to live in republic controlled space. I guess if you had license to take every single Force-sensitive child and indoctrinated them with religious propaganda and literal supernatural powers you could have a pretty good success rate at making sure they stay brainwashed.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:31
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Don't forget that while we never see them draw salary, they do seem to live lives absolutely free from want and whatever things they need are given to them. Combine that all together and you've got a system where the Jedi are extremely wrapped up in maintaining their status quo and wouldn't ever bother to question why they shouldn't steal babies since obviously it's what the force wants and will be a better life. I've always presumed Anakin "falls" because the child of a slave can see pretty clearly how hosed up the status qup is and how it absolutely shouldnt stand.
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Sep 1, 2016 20:00
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On the other hand, Han Solo and Lando Calrissian are old enough that they would have been snapped up if this were the case. Nor do we see droids among the Jedi. It's hard to believe they conscript everyone with a strong connection to the Force within the Republic.
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Sep 1, 2016 20:20
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Phi230 posted:Let it be entered into the record that the Jedi's own definition of "peace and stability" is just lack of the Sith. I could be wrong but it didn't feel like that to me. When Qui-Gon suggests that Maul is Sith they act like it's an almost forgotten relic rather than, "Oh poo poo, our entire reason for existing is back."
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Sep 1, 2016 20:35
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Brainiac Five posted:On the other hand, Han Solo and Lando Calrissian are old enough that they would have been snapped up if this were the case. Nor do we see droids among the Jedi. It's hard to believe they conscript everyone with a strong connection to the Force within the Republic. Neither of those dudes have a Force connection, though. Han is just lucky (and luckier than Lando seeing as he won the Falcon on a bet).
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Sep 1, 2016 20:45
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Barudak posted:the child of a slave can see pretty clearly how hosed up the status qup is and how it absolutely shouldnt stand. Unfortunately his solution is just murdering all the slave children the Jedi had recently abducted. Not a huge improvement to the status quo really. The new boss flies around blowing up planets and roasting people.
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Sep 1, 2016 20:48
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