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patonthebach posted:Its a real devils gambit because a vote for the ONDP depending on the polling might as well be a vote for OLP and a repeat of Wynne would be brutal. Might have to bite my tongue and vote OPC even though its not in my best interests. Highway 407 was a bigger boondoggle.
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Aug 30, 2016 20:56
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infernal machines posted:Give the people in Brantford a say in whether Toronto gets to improve service frequency, add routes, or spend money to maintain equipment and you'll see how much worse you can do. That's Tim Hudak and that's why hes president of OREA instead of Premier after bungling what should've been a no brainer campaign.
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Aug 30, 2016 20:56
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The Gunslinger posted:Assumes that the OLP are spending responsibly when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. In terms of what the NDP or PCs would do, lets get them in power and see, I think we've had enough mismanagement and corruption from the OLP for awhile. As a union member, renter, and transit user, "let's get the PCs in power and see what happens" is slightly better than Russian roulette.
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Aug 30, 2016 21:00
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The Conservatives are the ones who took the first significant steps toward privatizing our hydro system. Once upon a time Ontario had forward looking leaders who recognized the huge benefits of a public utility that could provide affordable energy to stimulate industry. It used to be that Ontario manufacturing could compete on costs with Mexican factories despite having much higher labour costs thanks to lower energy costs. But in the 1990s things were rewritten so that the government stopped basing its industrial strategy around cheap power, and since then successive governments have chopped up and started privatizing the grid. The Gunslinger posted:Tim Hudak is a moron but the Mike Harris bogeyman? Come on. We've got our own in office right now and they've been doing worse for awhile. It's fair to bring up Harris in situations where he's relevant to the history of the party. Up until the 1980s the Ontario PC's were controlled by a more traditional Red Tory elite who chose party leaders and fixed policy behind closed doors. When Mike Harris was first elected as an MPP he was extremely alienated from the establishment of his own party and felt he was kept out of cabinet. He was a relative outsider. When the PC's finally lost power after decades in office it threw the whole party into chaos. They lost several elections in a row and much of the old guard started to move on. They also made a crucial change to how party leaders were selected, switching to a one-person-one-vote system which empowered the more conservative grassroots membership. The membership then elected Harris, who was more oriented toward the American-style neoconservatism that was flourishing in that period. Harris then had years to recruit his own style of candidate and to remold the party in his image. And the party he left behind was significantly different than the one he inherited. In fact the changes Harris made to the party can help explain why the party keeps losing. And it also explains why huge numbers of Ontarians, who had no problem electing the PCs for 40 years in a row, are suddenly allergic to the party, especially in Toronto. Patrick Brown at least seems to recognize that the party needs to finally shake off the reputation for being hardline conservative, which is something I think it largely acquired in the first place because of Harris.
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Aug 30, 2016 21:02
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tagesschau posted:As a union member, renter, and transit user, "let's get the PCs in power and see what happens" is slightly better than Russian roulette. I'll wait and see what their platform is before I make up my mind. I don't just assume it will be awful because Tim Hudak was a dipshit. Same thing with the NDP. The OLP has already shown why they can't be trusted to govern and they've been in power long enough. These things are often cyclical and that's fine, they could stand a reorganization that is more than just Wynne shuffling the cabinet. quote:Harris then had years to recruit his own style of candidate and to remold the party in his image. And the party he left behind was significantly different than the one he inherited. In fact the changes Harris made to the party can help explain why the party keeps losing. And it also explains why huge numbers of Ontarians, who had no problem electing the PCs for 40 years in a row, are suddenly allergic to the party, especially in Toronto. That's certainly fair and its an oft repeated thing that the PCs lost sight of being Progressive and let the conservative elements of the party run rampant. I do agree that Brown seems willing to change long held party stances but can he stand for anything longer than 10 seconds? His polling isn't bad but voters frequently say that they don't know him well and the constant flip flopping isn't doing him any favors there. I just hope that he realizes that old white dudes in Niagara aren't going to win him the election, that party needs to modernize. The Gunslinger fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Aug 30, 2016 |
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Aug 30, 2016 21:05
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They're conservatives. 100% guaranteed they will be bad for transit users and renters
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Aug 30, 2016 21:08
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Harris is a bogeyman among students who don't even remember his government, let alone older non-hardline conservative voters who do. It's crazy how much he's disliked, still, and so long as this is the case the PC party is going to have problems.
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Aug 30, 2016 21:18
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The Gunslinger posted:I'll wait and see what their platform is before I make up my mind. I don't just assume it will be awful because Tim Hudak was a dipshit. It's likely to be bad for Toronto because their base is the type of people who are happy to continue to gently caress Toronto over because it sucks up their tax dollars despite the reality that the money flows in the opposite direction. The Harris voters who voted to stick it to them pointy-headed city-dwelling ivory-tower elites haven't gone away, and if the PCs end up in power, that part of their base will expect to control a lot of the agenda. I don't see Brown being as successful at suppressing the crazies as Harper was.
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Aug 30, 2016 21:20
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Of its elected MPPS, only five (discounting Hudak, who is resigning) are from the Harris days, and only of them one was a provincial minister back then. This, combined with brand new leadership means that it's safe to judge the party as it exists on its merits today, rather than bringing up the Harris boogeyman, just like I'm sure it's better to judge the BCNDP on its merits rather than bringing up fast ferries.
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Aug 30, 2016 21:25
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infernal machines posted:Give the people in Brantford a say in whether Toronto gets to improve service frequency, add routes, or spend money to maintain equipment and you'll see how much worse you can do. Speaking as someone still unfortunately living in Brantford, whatever you can imagine as rock bottom isn't low enough.
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Aug 30, 2016 21:29
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tagesschau posted:Highway 407 was a bigger boondoggle. How's that?
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Aug 30, 2016 22:38
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Attention 30-something Toronto goons: I found some erotic Knob Hill Farms fanfiction
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Aug 30, 2016 22:52
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Fluffy Chainsaw posted:Of its elected MPPS, only five (discounting Hudak, who is resigning) are from the Harris days, and only of them one was a provincial minister back then. This, combined with brand new leadership means that it's safe to judge the party as it exists on its merits today, rather than bringing up the Harris boogeyman, just like I'm sure it's better to judge the BCNDP on its merits rather than bringing up fast ferries. The first time the Conservatives tried to shake off the legacy of Harris was by selecting John Tory. Tory was a lovely leader for his own reasons and had some gaffes but the reason he only got one go as leader is largely because there was an internal revolt against him (lead, amusingly enough, by his future mayoral campaign manager, Nick Kouvalis). Then after this unprecedented internal uprising the party turned around and picked Tim Hudak, a Harris era MPP who ran two campaigns that closely emulated the trade-mark Harris era campaigning techniques and themes. It looks like Brown might be trying to steer the party in a slightly new direction and we'll see how that turns out but it's absolutely fair to view the PC party up until this point as a continuation of the Harris-era party. That's a judgement based on how the party has acted since they lost power in 2003. Part of the problem here is that the Harris era party was taping more directly into things that the base wanted to hear but which don't necessarily sell well with the rest of the electorate. There are people out there who were very excited by Tim Hudak saying he'd fire poo poo loads of public employees.
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Aug 30, 2016 22:52
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Muslim schools, chain gangs and 100,000 firings is why they lost the last 3 elections. OPCs suck so bad.
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Aug 30, 2016 22:59
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Ikantski posted:How's that? A private highway that is operated under a lovely lease agreement signed by said lovely government. Is that hard to understand? At least in BC we have the intelligence to just have invisible tolls to pay for our infrastructure.
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Aug 30, 2016 23:02
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Ikantski posted:100,000 firings Remember when they tried to walk this back by claiming they meant they would reduce the positions though attrition (as if that would somehow be better) despite the fact that they advertised the plan by gleefully handing out pink slips? That was a good one.
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Aug 30, 2016 23:14
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OSI bean dip posted:A private highway that is operated under a lovely lease agreement signed by said lovely government. Is that hard to understand? I get that, I just don't see how it's worse than the Hydro one sale. A convenience highway leased for 1b vs 14b of province wide electrical infrastructure permanently sold? H1 sale is objectively worse.
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Aug 30, 2016 23:26
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THC posted:So-called "cascadia" is the traditional territory of the Coast Salish peoples And they don't do eagle-feathered war bonnets, that's a Prairies thing. I'd ask my Coast Salish cousins what they think of this issue but I suspect some New Zealand dickwad copyrighting Cowichan sweaters is a more immediate concern. At least the teachers weren't drunk and doing war whoops.
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Aug 30, 2016 23:28
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Canada Post and the union have a tentative deal apparently.
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Aug 30, 2016 23:32
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Good. I hope the union wasn't who blinked.
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Aug 30, 2016 23:51
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Ikantski posted:I get that, I just don't see how it's worse than the Hydro one sale. A convenience highway leased for 1b vs 14b of province wide electrical infrastructure permanently sold? H1 sale is objectively worse. Absolutely, the scale is not the same and far fewer people are affected by the 407 nonsense. The issue is that the highway was built with public money, then leased to foreign private owners who have instituted incredibly high tolls (which keep the highway useful IMO). We lost both control of and revenue from an asset built with public funds for public use.
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Aug 30, 2016 23:58
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Ikantski posted:I get that, I just don't see how it's worse than the Hydro one sale. A convenience highway leased for 1b vs 14b of province wide electrical infrastructure permanently sold? H1 sale is objectively worse. Where did you get $1 billion from? As far as I can tell HW 407 cost $104 billion dollars and was leased for $3.1 billion dollars (for 99 years).
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Aug 31, 2016 00:00
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At least it wasn't "leased" to a major company for 990 years after promising to not do so and claiming that ownership of the right of ways was still being kept so the promise wasn't broken--such as what the BC Liberals did with BC Rail.
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Aug 31, 2016 00:04
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hosed up that a highway cost 1/6 of Ontario's GDP
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Aug 31, 2016 00:14
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Apparently the vast majority of that was obtaining land rights. Construction was only $1.6 billion.
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Aug 31, 2016 00:15
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I was on the 407 from Pearson today. It was fast and uncrowded, A++, would direct town car driver to take again.
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Aug 31, 2016 00:17
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HappyHippo posted:Apparently the vast majority of that was obtaining land rights. Construction was only $1.6 billion. That figure is, what, sourced to the PC government in the late 90s, referencing land purchases from the 1950s-1970s? I'd be skeptical of that figure unless I could see how it was calculated, I suspect it was inflated to make a point.
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Aug 31, 2016 00:26
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Pinterest Mom posted:That figure is, what, sourced to the PC government in the late 90s, referencing land purchases from the 1950s-1970s? I'd be skeptical of that figure unless I could see how it was calculated, I suspect it was inflated to make a point. Yeah that was the source I found. I don't know why they'd make it look more expensive (wouldn't that make it look like even more of a ripoff?), but I find it difficult to understand the logic of "fiscal conservatives" at the best of times so maybe they did.
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Aug 31, 2016 00:29
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Pinterest Mom posted:hosed up that a highway cost 1/6 of Ontario's GDP GDP is what we make every year, the highway's cost was spread out over many years. So it's not as absurd as it sounds... but still probably overstated by a lot. Wikipedia cites a PC MPP from this issue of Hansard (featuring a bonus appearance by Tim Hudak talking about how he celebrated Library Day)
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Aug 31, 2016 00:36
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Guy DeBorgore posted:Look at y'all saying "native" people like it's the 90s, if you're gonna get outraged over primary school teachers dressing up for small children you might wanna get your terminology down. shut the gently caress up
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Aug 31, 2016 00:37
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linoleum floors posted:shut the gently caress up you reached back a whole page just to say that eh
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Aug 31, 2016 00:43
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Isn't there also some kind of non-compete clause on the 407 lease meaning the province can't even build up other highways the ease congestion along the same/similar route?
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Aug 31, 2016 00:46
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Guy DeBorgore posted:GDP is what we make every year, the highway's cost was spread out over many years. So it's not as absurd as it sounds... but still probably overstated by a lot. Wikipedia cites a PC MPP from this issue of Hansard (featuring a bonus appearance by Tim Hudak talking about how he celebrated Library Day) I suspect it's probably something like 1950s cost + adjusted for inflation + cost of servicing debt on that amount (at a pretty high rate - 8% or so) for 30 years.
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Aug 31, 2016 00:50
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(Seriously looking back at old Ontario debt schedules is depressing. These are from the 2003 budget)  The average interest rate on Ontario debt in 2015 was ~3.5%. Pinterest Mom fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 01:01
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Guys blah blah blah residential schools so natives get carte blanche forever on anything because of white guilt
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Aug 31, 2016 03:13
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infernal machines posted:Remember when they tried to walk this back by claiming they meant they would reduce the positions though attrition (as if that would somehow be better) despite the fact that they advertised the plan by gleefully handing out pink slips? They announced it in Barrie, a city whose reliance on government jobs for a good chunk of employment ranks pretty loving high. It was magical.
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Aug 31, 2016 03:39
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namaste faggots posted:Guys blah blah blah residential schools so natives get carte blanche forever on anything because of white guilt On a scale of 1 to miss universe canada 2015, how oppressed do you feel when you see white people with chinese tattoos? https://twitter.com/UPofBeauties/status/678624021655789569
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Aug 31, 2016 03:42
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Ikantski posted:On a scale of 1 to miss universe canada 2015, how oppressed do you feel when you see white people with chinese tattoos? I love how they just had to position that particular face right in front of her crotch.
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Aug 31, 2016 03:54
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namaste faggots posted:Guys blah blah blah residential schools so natives get carte blanche forever on anything because of white guilt The last residential school closed in 1986 tell us again what exactly you believe these Aboriginal people get 'carte blanche' on? loving native privilege, I tell ya 
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Aug 31, 2016 04:13
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Squibbles posted:Isn't there also some kind of non-compete clause on the 407 lease meaning the province can't even build up other highways the ease congestion along the same/similar route? Yes, and the company that owns the 407 has the right to raise tolls as it wishes and force the Ministry of Transportation to act as a collection agency on their behalf. Amazingly, this lease has been interpreted to bind future legislatures (not the way parliaments are supposed to work), defying subsequent governments' attempts to bring the situation back to sanity.
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Aug 31, 2016 05:01
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