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Gene basically just gets by because he worked insanely hard to build up a cult of personality around himself while burying the achievements of anyone not named Gene Roddenberry. Lucas actually did poo poo that revolutionized the medium several times over.
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Sep 13, 2016 22:22
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WickedHate posted:Gene basically just gets by because he worked insanely hard to build up a cult of personality around himself while burying the achievements of anyone not named Gene Roddenberry. Lucas actually did poo poo that revolutionized the medium several times over. When it comes to stealing credit and downplaying the involvement of others, Stan Lee is a better comparison for Gene.
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Sep 13, 2016 22:27
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The worst TOS episode is Metamorphosis, wherein the competent career woman on an important mission gets trapped on a planet by a possessive female energy being in love with a lonely space man, is rude and abrasive toward everyone because she's an As for her promising career and that war she was supposed to stop, they're sure they'll find some other woman to do that.
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Sep 13, 2016 22:27
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Big Mean Jerk posted:When it comes to stealing credit and downplaying the involvement of others, Stan Lee is a better comparison for Gene. Gene is even worse than Lee, but just a bit below Bob Kane.
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Sep 13, 2016 22:41
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Now I want to see into the alternate reality where Stan Lee started a cult-like religion.
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Sep 13, 2016 22:43
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Rhyno posted:Now I want to see into the alternate reality where Stan Lee started a cult-like religion. You're in that reality. Go shout "MARVEL SUCKS" in a comic book store and prepare to be flattened by a dogpile of morbidly obese fedoramancers.
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Sep 13, 2016 23:00
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Kazinsal posted:You're in that reality. Not even close. There's no temple, not meters that measure how much of a
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Sep 13, 2016 23:10
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He does have true believers, though.
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Sep 13, 2016 23:14
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Rhyno posted:Not even close. There's no temple, not meters that measure how much of a "You must be this
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Sep 13, 2016 23:16
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Gammatron 64 posted:I think the only women I can think of off the top of my head in TOS that weren't portrayed as total bimbos were Edith Keeler from the "City on the Edge of Forever", Number One, and Uhura. I'd add Amanda, T'Pau, and the Romulan Commander from 'The Enterprise Incident' to that list.
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Sep 13, 2016 23:22
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WickedHate posted:No, you're right, but I'll add that Lucas was a true visionary as far as the art of filmmaking goes with the caveat that there are people putting limits on him and saying no every now and then. (although then again, he also thinks Empire Strikes Back is the worst one, so maybe I'm wrong) George Lucas's crime was making some lovely movies, which, all things considered, its a pretty minor crime. I'm sure most of us would gently caress up a few movies here and there. Lucas sold off the rights to Star Wars and donated it all to charity. He's a standup fella. That said... the one thing about Lucas that does actually piss me off is the whole refusing to release the original editions of Star Wars thing... But, aside from royally loving up the original Star Wars trilogy with CGI musical numbers, George Lucas is a loving saint compared to Gene. Powered Descent posted:I'd add Amanda, T'Pau, and the Romulan Commander from 'The Enterprise Incident' to that list. Oh yeah, I forgot the Romulan Commander. She's cool, even though she doesn't have a name. That's like, one of 3 good episodes from season 3 of TOS. Like drat, so much of TOS Season 3 is either just forgettable or really, really bad. Duckbag posted:The worst TOS episode is Metamorphosis, wherein the competent career woman on an important mission gets trapped on a planet by a possessive female energy being in love with a lonely space man There's also "the Man Trap", where a lady everyone has the hots for turns out to be a salt-sucking vampire monster. It's the first aired episode, even!
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Sep 13, 2016 23:34
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And it's pretty blatant from the other side of the coin. In The Enemy Within Kirk just stops being a good, decisive commander when his rapey dark half is prowling the ship and Spock gives this speech about "don't you see a man can't be powerful and in command without that angry rapey side powering them"
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Sep 14, 2016 00:12
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Gammatron 64 posted:There's also "the Man Trap", where a lady everyone has the hots for turns out to be a salt-sucking vampire monster. It's the first aired episode, even! I just watched that one, and it also features Kirk expressing annoyance at being assigned a female yeoman because his desire to bang her is too distracting.
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Sep 14, 2016 01:24
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showbiz_liz posted:I just watched that one, and it also features Kirk expressing annoyance at being assigned a female yeoman because his desire to bang her is too distracting. It's easier to swallow if you think of it as Kirk very badly trying to hide his homosexuality. "Gee, I just...want to have so much sex with women. How am I supposed to get any work done with all these boners the lady yeoman gives me."
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Sep 14, 2016 01:31
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Kirk is queer as folk.
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Sep 14, 2016 01:50
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Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uxTpyCdriY There's a couple of NSFW frames.
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Sep 14, 2016 02:37
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Y'know, going back and watching the remastered TOS episodes that I recorded over the weekend, I had forgotten what an inordinate amount of "insane/evil/malfunctioning supercomputer" episodes there were.
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Sep 14, 2016 02:53
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Gammatron 64 posted:George Lucas's crime was making some lovely movies, which, all things considered, its a pretty minor crime. I'm sure most of us would gently caress up a few movies here and there. Lucas sold off the rights to Star Wars and donated it all to charity. He's a standup fella. Plus the whole "morally a good person, other than getting nerds mad" thing.
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Sep 14, 2016 03:39
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I think TOS remastered is typically fine and often an improvement (it adds stuff like ships that were previously just smudges on the screen) but there are two episodes that have some really bad effects - namely the Doomsday Machine and the Devil in the Dark when the Horta goes through the wall. Man those look BAD. Usually though, the changes are pretty tasteful and don't detract from the episodes or feel too out of place, unlike the Star Wars special editions.
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Sep 14, 2016 03:42
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I imagine a lot of it is that Trek didn't really build heavily around the effects in a way that Star Wars did; there's also a shitload more Star Trek than Star Wars. Like I think TAS is as long as the first six Star Wars movies combined, and that's the shortest, cheesiest run
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Sep 14, 2016 03:45
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So I just realized I don't really remember the actual plot of Sub Rosa. There's a horny ghost that banged Crusher's grandma and now I guess it wants to bone her?
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Sep 14, 2016 03:51
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I just got to Virtuoso and it must have been pretty hard to find a few dozen actors who were not actual midgets but still short as gently caress.
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Sep 14, 2016 04:01
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Rhyno posted:Now I want to see into the alternate reality where Stan Lee started a cult-like religion. That universe is 30 Rock, where the alien king living inside Stan Lee founded the Church of Practicology, and it can totally drain the gay right out of you!
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Sep 14, 2016 04:40
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As much as people want to dog TOS and Gene for not being feminist enough even for the 60s, let's not forget the entire premise of the show is that the Enterprise is crewed by 1/3 females, including numerous female officers like Uhura. They served side by side with and outranked some of the men, in a time where the US armed forces were completely segregated. It's hard to realize that today when things are fairly integrated, but imagine you're a guy watching the show who fought in Korea or WWII and you see this military style ship where they are out "to sea" (in space) for months at a time with women just there on board. They aren't separated onto quarters on their own floors, they don't have some sort of separate but equal WASP/WAVE command structure, they aren't just nurses or support staff--they are scientists, ops officers, etc. It's be so foreign, so outlandish. Imagine you were a young girl seeing this, when all the women you see who work are secretaries, nurses, or teachers. That was HUGE for the time.
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Sep 14, 2016 04:57
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WickedHate posted:So I just realized I don't really remember the actual plot of Sub Rosa. There's a horny ghost that banged Crusher's grandma and now I guess it wants to bone her?
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Sep 14, 2016 05:00
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Astroman posted:As much as people want to dog TOS and Gene for not being feminist enough even for the 60s, let's not forget the entire premise of the show is that the Enterprise is crewed by 1/3 females, including numerous female officers like Uhura. They served side by side with and outranked some of the men, in a time where the US armed forces were completely segregated. Like how Gene spun trying to get his mistress a starring role as him him wanting a female second officer and the sexist network shut him down, this was just an excuse to have a bunch of space bunnies in micro skirts as a constant presence in the setting. That doesn't devalue the effort in other places and how it did end up having tons of positive social connotations, but let's keep things in perspective here. Nessus posted:Come on, son, it's the drat thread title! I mean, is that it? It's such a bizarre concept that I'm past the laughing and it's like, poo poo, seriously? What the gently caress?
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Sep 14, 2016 05:03
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WickedHate posted:Like how Gene spun trying to get his mistress a starring role as him him wanting a female second officer and the sexist network shut him down, this was just an excuse to have a bunch of space bunnies in micro skirts as a constant presence in the setting. Without looking up the episode, IIRC she goes home for her grandmothers funeral, stays in the house and finds a journal. The journal talks about some kind of romance novel cover dude visiting her. She reads the journal, tells Troi about it, and one night this ghost dude just appears and she falls in love with it. I think there's something about the ghost being tied to a candle and that's how she eventually kills it when he goes nuts. It's a really stupid episode and the thread title is an exact quote.
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Sep 14, 2016 05:09
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WickedHate posted:Like how Gene spun trying to get his mistress a starring role as him him wanting a female second officer and the sexist network shut him down, this was just an excuse to have a bunch of space bunnies in micro skirts as a constant presence in the setting. Name me one other military show, scifi or otherwise, pre 1966 that had women in equal roles as enlisted and officers with the men. Maybe I'm wrong and Star Trek was just horribly regressive and the women were all useless eye candy portrayed as having no intelligence, but that's never been my perspective. I'm not saying the women in the show are as shown as competent and equal as women today, but you can't just dismiss it entirely.
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Sep 14, 2016 05:26
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And I'm just saying that was incidental to the intent. No one's saying Trek wasn't progressive at all.
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Sep 14, 2016 05:31
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Are those two 50 Year Voyage books worth the hardcover price or should I wait a year for the inevitable paperback?
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Sep 14, 2016 05:37
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Me and my roommate just stumbled across a klingon challenge for the first time i have experienced bij
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Sep 14, 2016 05:42
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Admiral Bosch posted:Me and my roommate just stumbled across a klingon challenge for the first time 
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Sep 14, 2016 06:38
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Astroman posted:As much as people want to dog TOS and Gene for not being feminist enough even for the 60s, let's not forget the entire premise of the show is that the Enterprise is crewed by 1/3 females, including numerous female officers like Uhura. They served side by side with and outranked some of the men, in a time where the US armed forces were completely segregated. The Yeomans were basically just WAVEs in space (the series "bible" linked earlier even explicitly makes the comparison). Chapel is a nurse (why isn't she a full doctor, exactly? It's clearly stated that she has extensive medical and research training). As for Uhura, she really is just a glorified secretary. Sure, she's nominally a lieutenant, and she actually takes command in a TAS episode (after literally every single male crewman is incapacitated), but when in the original series do we ever see her give any man an order that's not coming down from the captain? That's a serious question, by the way. It feels like there should be at least one instance, but I genuinely can't think of one. She acts with less autonomy, authority, and initiative than any other officer on the bridge and I think it's fatuous and disingenuous to pretend that her supposed role in the command structure is anything more than a polite fiction (sort of like Troi being a notional Lt. Commander), given that she's never actually shown to wield the authority her rank would imply. She's also put as far away from actual combat as possible in a way that's quite consistent with how WAVEs and other female "support" staff were treated at the time. The same goes for every other female officer or crewman on the ship (again, if there are exceptions, please point them out). Sure, some of them are doctors or lieutenants, but they're always scientists of one sort or another, or else administrative staff like Uhura. We never see them in command (aside from Roddenberry's mistress in the first pilot), security, or even engineering, as far as I can tell. They're constantly following orders and virtually never giving them, they're consistently treated differently from their male crew mates due to their sex, and any time one of them talks to a male officer with anything less than absolute deference, he'll respond with either naked irritation or smirking condescension as if he's amused (or turned on) by her impertinence. None of that is inconsistent with how women were treated in business and the military in the sixties, and some of it was actually rather regressive for the time. Rosie the Riveter would have never been tolerated on the Enterprise. As for why Roddenberry and other "enlightened" scifi authors of the time (*cough*Heinlein*cough*) put women on the ship at all, that's simple. It was so that men could have sex with them.
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Sep 14, 2016 07:06
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Cojawfee posted:It's almost as if the entire world didn't treat women very well at the time.
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Sep 14, 2016 07:11
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Was Tasha Yar the head of security or just the bridge security officer? I can't remember. Because if she wasn't then it didn't really get solved until DS9, and even then Kira is obviously not Starfleet. From there, Janeway.
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Sep 14, 2016 07:26
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Tasha fell into another unfortunate stereotype, that being that butch women who take charge always die.
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Sep 14, 2016 07:29
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Big Mean Jerk posted:It's almost as if the entire world didn't treat women very well at the time. Again, Twilight Zone had very good roles for women and very little of the unexamined paternalism and leering objectification TOS had, despite being from the same era (slightly earlier, actually), belonging to the same genre, and frequently being set in the present. TOS had an unusual license to depict a future where women's place in society had changed, but instead chose to spend most of its time wallowing in mini-skirted WAC fantasies, brassy working girl cliches, and dated "space princess" exoticism. Change a few lines here and there (and lengthen the skirts a little) and most of the female roles would mesh perfectly into war/adventure serials from 20 or even 30 years earlier. It's wrong to call it a product of its time. If anything, it was a throwback to a previous era masquerading as a vision of the future.
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Sep 14, 2016 07:54
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Duckbag posted:Again, Twilight Zone had very good roles for women and very little of the unexamined paternalism and leering objectification TOS had, despite being from the same era (slightly earlier, actually), belonging to the same genre, and frequently being set in the present. Except for the one that was about the danger of women drivers.
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Sep 14, 2016 08:07
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I love the ghost hitchhiker episode. The main character is complex and relatable and the actress did a fantastic job. As for any unfortunate implications, I'm fairly sure they were unintentional. One of my favorite Twilight Zone moments comes a little later in the series when Serling starts his monologue by admitting that it's been suggested that he's not that good at writing female characters, and then introduces the female writer for that episode who he hopes will redeem his reputation. I really wish that Roddenberry had been capable of that level of humility and self-reflection at basically any point in his career.
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Sep 14, 2016 09:28
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WickedHate posted:So I just realized I don't really remember the actual plot of Sub Rosa. There's a horny ghost that banged Crusher's grandma and now I guess it wants to bone her? And as Bev doesn't have any daughters, Ghost Shakaar bangs Wesley next.
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Sep 14, 2016 11:13
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